Breaking Down Restoration Walls (Patrick McKay)

Patrick McKay is an apostle for the Joint Conference of Restoration Branches (JCRB.) He’ll discuss breaking away from the RLDS Church, and his attempts to unify the Restoration Movement. We’ll talk about how he uses the Book of Mormon to do that. I’ll also ask him about archaeological, DNA, and other problems with the Book of Mormon, and whether he thinks he could unify with polygamist groups. Check out our conversation…

Gospel Tangents

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Who is Patrick McKay?

Interview

GT 00:48 Welcome to Gospel Tangents. I’m excited to have apostle from the Joint Conference of Restoration Branches. Is that right?

Patrick 00:57 That’s correct.

GT 00:57 All right. So, tell us your name. And we want to learn a little bit more about the JCRB.

Patrick 01:02 Okay, my name is Patrick McKay. And I am an apostle in the Joint Conference of Restoration Branches. You know, there’s apostles in all the restoration groups and people worry, there’s 12, 24, 48. I’m not concerned. It’s more about function, than it is form. And every branch the restoration has some divine inspiration, or at least belief in a divine inspiration of what God’s planned for them. And we come out of the Reorganization. We’re trying to remain faithful to what we originally embraced as a church, and we do a lot of missionary work. And we have Seventies. Seventies, according to latter day revelation, are to labor under at the direction of the apostles. So that’s why we have them.

GT 01:47 Okay, so do you have 12 apostles?

Patrick 01:49 We have eight.

GT 01:50 Eight, okay. I’ve always wondered, it sounds like the JCRB, did they start in about 1984, after the revelation on women in the priesthood in–well, now Community of Christ? It used to be the RLDS Church.

Patrick 02:06 No, in 1984, there was one independent branch that was formed. It was called the Independence Branch, and I happened to be one of the charter members. We had studied for a couple of years. We had had our licenses removed in the church, what they call a silencing.

GT 02:23 Oh.

Patrick 02:24 Because we had met in some alternative settings on non-scripted Sundays, or whatever. And as a result of that, the church silenced people who met in these alternative settings. So, for a couple of years, we had nowhere to go to church. So, we simply met and studied and looked at the early history of the reorganization and felt that we could form branches that work continue through that avenue. If there was an elder, then a branch could be raised up. And we did that. So, a lot of years went by before we believed that we could create a conference. And that happened in 2005. There was initial effort to gather people to talk about a conference. We met in the historic Stone Church. Then later that year, we held our first conference, and we invited as many people in the restoration branch movement as we could possibly contact. We had 76 branches attend the first conference.

GT 03:20 Wow.

Patrick 03:21 That was national and international. So, it was it was a Branch conference, the way we designed it, was a branch would have one delegate vote. And every 25 members would get another delegate vote. That way, people that didn’t live in [the] Independence area could have representation at the conference. So, in 2005, in 2008, we had a group of Restoration 70 that had petitioned the conference for three years, asking, “Could they regenerate the Quorum of Seventy.” It’s an interesting office. It’s self-perpetuating, but they need conference approval. So, in 2008, the conference had what they felt was some inspiration to accept that and they authorized that and 10 men were chosen to be Seventies, in addition to the four they had. So, as a result of that, the conference began to take on a little bit of size and so forth. It continued to expand and we’re busy in about 23 countries. So, we have a bunch of Seventy that are laboring for several years. In 2016, there was a revelation that was presented. It was never written or never codified, as far as being placed in the Doctrine and Covenants. It was kind of like, in our church, a presiding elder has a revelation about a call to the ministry, and the congregation votes on it. But it’s not a revelation that’s considered a document that’s worthy of being placed in a book volume of Scripture. And so, the Conference accepted that testimony. A couple of names were presented. They were voted on, and they were ordained. And those two apostles, then, over a period of time, began selecting others. And so that’s where we are today.

Who Has Authority? “One True Church”

Interview

GT 05:14 Very interesting. Well, one of the things that I love, you’ve got a great book, why don’t you go ahead and show us. [Hold] up, Healing the Breach. Tell us why you wrote that book.

Patrick 05:27 Well, you know, that’s interesting. I grew up in the RLDS Church, the Reorganized Church, and like most branches of the restoration, we believe we’re it. Every branch of the Restoration you talk to, they believe they’re the one, true church that is a continuation of what began in 1830. As I was reading Section one, one day, it’s in your Doctrine & Covenants, section one and in ours. He refers to this as the only true and living church on the face of the earth, speaking to the church collectively, and not individually. I paused and I thought, “What does that mean, collectively?” We knew in Joseph’s day, there was only one organization. But following his death, it fractured into many groups and is continued to fracture throughout the course of time. I began to think a lot about that and recognize there were people that were really inspired in the Restoration, had given their lives to it, had devoted their lives and brought their children up in the gospel and had made a real impact, whether they were Mormon or RLDS or Hedrickite, or Church of Christ Bickertonite, or the Elijah Message, and so forth.

Patrick 06:33 So, we began visiting some of these groups of people, and we thought [that] we’d get to know them, worship with them, stay in their homes, invite them into our home. We had opportunity to speak in their churches. We discovered something we had never known before. Here was a group of people that were very much like us but had taken a different path. I like to think of the story of the woman at the well. Jesus goes and meets the Samaritan woman. And the Jews don’t have any dealings with the Samaritans and the Samaritans certainly don’t talk to the Jews. But Jesus talked to both. And we thought, “Is it possible that Jesus is speaking to our branch of the restoration, and he may be speaking to another branch, but we’re not speaking to each other, so we’re not aware of it?” So that’s kind of what set us on this course. And as we spent time with these different people, we had just an overwhelming awareness that these were the Lord’s people, just as committed and dedicated as any other group of the restoration. So that was how I got started in that process, Rick.

GT 07:35 Yeah, well, that’s great. I mean, one of the things I loved about the book was you really tried to get a lot of testimonies. In fact, I think it should be called the Book of Miracles, because every time somebody bore their testimony, it was about a miracle that happened, which I thought was great. But I loved how you tried to get different voices of the Restoration, throughout. I guess one of the things that I’ve been struck by is the Strangites. I believe you had some Strangites in there, is that right? {Patrick nods.} The reason I asked that is one of their beliefs–they don’t have any apostles anymore, or prophet, and they believe–I’m trying to remember how they say it. “The lesser cannot ordain the greater.” And that you basically need an angelic ordination in order to become an apostle or a prophet, as the case might be. And since James Strang didn’t ordain any new apostles, once the apostles died out, then there were no more. So, it’s interesting as you’ve gone to all these, there’s those different beliefs. If a Strangite came to you and say, “Well, how could you be an apostle? Did you have an angel ordain you?” How would you respond to that?

Patrick 08:54 Well, I wouldn’t be able to say that. But what I would say is, “There was a time when the Reorganized Church and the Mormon Church debated this vociferously. And the criticism to the Reorganization that the stream can’t rise higher than its source. So, the Utah Church says, we have the apostles. We have the keys, and so you couldn’t ordain Joseph [III] and so forth in the Reorganization.

GT 09:21 Right, yeah.

Patrick 09:22 But our position was, is that the source of stream is God and if God commands, there’s [not] anything you can’t do and so we believe Joseph, the third taught, that God could regenerate the church from a single elder, if he was commanded to do so. And so, within the Melchizedek priesthood is that power to regenerate, to reorganize, to recombine the church, whatever term we might want to use. And that was the position of the Reorganization. It’s interesting, you brought Strang into this, because the two principal elders in the early days of the Reorganization, were both ordained in Strang’s movement.

GT 09:59 Right.

Patrick 10:00 In fact, Jason Briggs, who was chosen to preside over the formation of the Reorganization in 1853, on the strength of his office of a High Priest. On April 6, 1846, he was ordained to high priests under the hands of James J. Strang. And he became the first apostle chosen and then he, in turn, ordained the next six.

GT 10:22 For Strang?

Patrick 10:23 No, for the Reorganization.

GT 10:25 Oh, the Reorganization.

Patrick 10:25 So that became an interesting thing. And, he was never re-ordained, or he never had to set that down. Strang had been ordained by Hyrum Smith. He had been ordained a high priest. Strang claims he was ordained by an angel at the hour that Joseph was killed. But going back to just his priesthood, and William Marks, and let’s see. I’m trying to think, Zenas Gurley, as well as Jason Briggs, had all been in that movement in one way or another. So, it’s interesting. We’re of the persuasion and not everyone shares this, that when Joseph died, the church fractured. There were men in the ministry in all of these groups. And that begged the question, did they all lose their authority as soon as Joseph died, if they didn’t go one way or another? And we’ve been persuaded over time and witnessing and experiencing what we’ve seen, miracles that have been demonstrated in their testimony, that God is in the matter. He’s been involved in all of these branches of the restoration. And this book isn’t designed to say that one group is better than the other. I’m in the reorganization. That’s where God planted me. I have a testimony that the teachings that we have, I believe are scripturally based. But that doesn’t mean if I have authority that you wouldn’t have authority, Rick. We assume, because I have authority, you can’t. But it’s very hard to prove a negative. We can all say, “We have authority, but you must not.” And I simply believe that there’s a new day dawning for the Restoration, where there are people that God has planted in all of these groups, and it’s his intention to weave us back together.

GT 12:14 Yeah, I liked– it seems like when we were back in Independence about a month ago, one of the things that I remember you saying to me at that restaurant was, “We need to quit worrying about all these authority claims.” Is that right? Am I characterizing you right?

Patrick 12:30 Yeah. Well, what I said was in Protestant Christianity, they resisted the teachings of the papacy. And in the Catholic faith, they believe the Pope is the vicegerent of God, that he speaks ex cathedra. They believe in intercessory priesthood. Protestantism protested that. They reject that, and they replaced that with the Bible. The Bible became inerrant. And so, in Protestant Christianity, if you believe in Jesus and you accept the Bible as Word of God, there’s room for you in the tent, whether you’re a Methodist, Pentecostal, or Presbyterian, whatever. Well, in the Restoration, I’d like to think if we all believe in Christ, and we believe in the Book of Mormon, that there’s room under the tent. The problem is the elephant in the room is authority.

GT 13:16 Right. That’s what you say.

Patrick 13:17 And so, in Protestant Christianity, the authority is the Bible, so you can be unhappy in the Pentecostal church, and you can go over here to the Assembly of God, or go over here. But in Latter-day Saint-ism, only one church claims to have authority, there’s a little group…

GT 13:33 Every church claims they’re the only one with authority, right?

Patrick 13:36 In fact, there’s a little group right behind the RLDS Auditorium on Cottage Street in Independence, and they have about 12 members worldwide.

GT 13:46 The Cutlerites, yes.

Patrick 13:47 The Cutlerites, and they’re the one true church.

GT 13:50 Yeah, I so bad want to get one of them on my podcast. They’ve always told me no.

Patrick 13:57 They’re a really sweet group of people. They really are nice.

GT 14:01 Yeah. Friendly, one of the friendliest people I’ve ever met. That’s great.

Restoration Testimonies

Interview

GT 14:05 So, talk a little bit more about your book, because it kind of sounds like a Unity movement, Healing the Breach. Is that what you’re trying to do is get all the, I don’t know if I should say Mormon. I probably should say Restoration, rather than Mormon. Right? [You’re trying to get] all the restoration groups back together. Is that what you’re trying to do?

Patrick 14:25 Well, I believe ultimately, God says, “If you’re not one, you’re not mine.” And I think that’s an indictment on all of us to one degree or another. There’s a story in the Book of Mormon. I believe it’s more than a story. I believe it’s a true prophecy. It’s the parable that Jacob gives in the Book of Zenos, He talks about Zenos’ prophecy from brass plates. And it’s interesting he talks about how the children of Israel were removed from places and put in different parts of the vineyard, some in a good spot, some in a poor, some in a better, some in choice spot. But they all bore fruit. And Nephi, explaining the vision that he and his father had to his brothers, they didn’t understand. He said, “I can liken all scripture unto us,” referring to Isaiah. So, we can liken all scripture unto us, Rick, in our day. So, I think the various fractions of the Restoration are very much like the scattering of Israel. And all were blessed, regardless of where they went, some in a good spot, some in a poor spot, but they all bore fruit. And I think that’s true of the Restoration. All of the groups of the Restoration have been able to bear fruit to a greater or lesser degree. So, I see the day will come when we’ll be all grafted back into the same body.

Patrick 15:44 Now I like to give a little, I have a lot of metaphors in my book. And I like to think of it this way. All of these organizations have kept the Saints alive. They’ve stirred us and fed us and nourished us to whatever degree you think, like a mother does when she carries a child. But after nine months, and the baby’s born, what happens to the placenta? It’s cast aside. And I actually see all of the organizations of the Restoration, like a placenta. Eventually, they’ll be cast aside, and we’ll have a living, breathing body of Christ. That doesn’t mean there won’t be some organization. But we’ve become so institutionalized and there’s so much bureaucracy and maintaining each of our organizations, that we’ve lost sight of the real message of Christ, which is the Restoration of the House of Israel, preparing and gathering us and preparing us for the return of Christ. So, that’s kind of, in a nutshell, what I think about all the organizations. I think they’re all useful. And you can say one’s better than the other, whatever you want. But I believe God’s finger has been on all of them, to a greater or lesser degree, to keep the Saints alive until He moves to reunite us.

GT 16:59 Yeah. You talked a little bit about, in your book, about genetic diversity. Can you tell us that story a little bit better?

Patrick 17:09 Well, sure. In nature, if you marry within a certain family, all of a sudden you start having mutations develop. And so, if you have a wider circle, whether it’s with animals or plants or people, the chance of surviving is a lot better. You have a diverse field. And if you marry within the same structure over and over again, that manifests itself after time. And so, in the Restoration, what we’ve done, we’ve tried to remain pure, and we don’t want any wrong influences coming into our church. So, we don’t want anything to do with the Mormons, let’s say for RLDS or the Bickertonites don’t want anything to do with the other branches. They even say, “We’re not a part of any other Restoration branch.” And that’s their identity. And what happens is, it’s just like in nature. Certain elements come along, and we’re not able to deal with the disease or the shortcomings in life. And what we have is criticism against Mormonism in general. In the constellation of Mormonism, it doesn’t matter whether you’re a Bickertonite or a Hedrickite, or a Josephite. The world sees us all as Mormons. In fact, if I tell people I believe in the Book of Mormon, they’ll say, “Oh, you’re a Mormon.”

Patrick 18:30 And I like to respond and say, “Do you believe in the Bible?”

Patrick 18:32 And they say, “Well, yeah.”

Patrick 18:33 I say, “Are you a Bible?” And so, they understand, but the world see us, really, Rick, more clearly than we see ourselves.

Patrick 18:42 We are in that same banner of Mormonism, because we’re not Catholic, and we’re not Protestant. Now, we may not be Utah Mormons, or we may not be Prairie Saints Mormons, but we’re all kind of in that same basket. At least, that’s how the world sees us. We would say, “Well, we’re not Mormons, or we’re not this,” but we do have a common identity, we go back to the same origin, we share many of the same concepts: the restored priesthood, the divinity of the Book of Mormon, the gathering of Israel. We believe in angelic visitations. We believe in the gifts of the Spirit, the fruits of the Spirit. We really have a lot in common, but we spent all of our time defining ourselves by who we’re not. “Are you Mormon?”

Patrick 19:29 “No, I believe in Book of Mormon, but I’m not a Utah Mormon.” And that’s how we’ve defined ourselves. And that’s a negative approach. I don’t think you build success with a negative message. I think you’ve got to be positive.

GT 19:41 Yeah, very good. I mean, because that does bring up another thing. President Nelson, in the LDS Church, has just said that we shouldn’t call ourselves Mormons anymore. And it sounds like you get that quite a bit. Would you consider yourself part of Mormonism or Restoration? Or how would you prefer to call yourself?

Patrick 20:05 We’d probably say we’re part of the Restoration. If the world refers to me as a part of Mormonism, that’s just an opportunity to discuss and talk about it. President Nelson did say we’d like to be called, “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or we could just be called The Church of Jesus Christ.” Do you know how many Churches of Jesus Christ there are?

GT 20:26 I do know!

Patrick 20:27 Within the Restoration. In the Restoration Branch Movement, we refer to ourselves as the Church of Jesus Christ, this restoration branch or that restoration branch. There was a time when some of us thought we could reclaim the name, the Reorganized Church, and the Community of Christ sued us. And so, they trademarked the name. They don’t use it, but they warehouse it, no one else can use it. So, we call ourselves the Church of Jesus Christ-Restoration Branch, whichever one we happen to attend.

GT 20:46 Well, and I’ve noticed in Independence, you’ll see little variations on the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, like the Restored Branch of Jesus Christ or things like that. Every time I would see a church, I’m like, “That’s got to be a Mormon church.” (Chuckling) I remember, I would take pictures. You mentioned, what we call Bickertonites, their official name is the Church of Jesus Christ. I know they got a lot [of website traffic] after President Nelson’s talk. They got a lot of traffic on their website, because that’s what they had. But the Cutlerites, also, are the Church of Jesus Christ. And there’s a lot of them and especially in Independence, if you just drive around, it was amazing to me. Like, I know Jim Vun Cannon’s group, the Everlasting Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Days. The weirdest thing is my hotel is right by there. I stopped by their church. So, it really is helpful to get some of these names, the Hedrickites, the Bickertonites, the Cutlerites, so that we can distinguish. But I love this, and I don’t know, would you call it a unity movement? Are you trying to bring everybody back together?

Patrick 22:16 Well, I don’t feel like I have any power to do anything like that. I’m just trying to give people something to think about that, if you look far enough down a highway, a two-lane road, you only see one lane. And I think the Lord intends to heal the breach in the restoration. So, what I’m interested in doing is creating dialogue, finding out who these folks are out there that we’ve kept at arm’s length, and realize that, when you like somebody, and you really care about them, it’s a little harder to be critical of them. And when you hear their testimony, and my book is full of testimonies, miracles, from different branches of the Restoration. And if you had a miracle in your church, Rick, that you saw someone raised from the dead, or an angel appeared, or a prophecy was delivered, and it came to pass shortly thereafter, you would say that’s evidence that we’re the Lord’s people, that we’re where God planted us, that we’re the true church. But you go over here to a different branch of the Restoration, and they have a parallel experience. And not only do I have experiences in the book, but they’re parallel, whether it’s an angelic visit, whether it’s a healing, whether it’s using the– what do we call it? The anointing of the handkerchief, whether it’s the gift of speaking in tongues; It’s remarkable how really similar we are. But we don’t know, because we just don’t dialogue.

GT 23:40 Oh, absolutely. I know all of the groups are very exclusive. “We’re the ones. We’re God’s chosen people.” As I read your book, the thought that came to my mind was, there were so many miracles in there.

GT 24:06 Jesus says, “These are the signs that follow those that believe, healing sick, speaking in tongues,” stuff like that. And that book was just chock full of miracles. So, how can we be the only church that experiences miracles when you have Bickertonite miracles, and Strangite miracles, and all these other miracles? Do you have an explanation for that?

Patrick 24:30 Well, I do. I think these miracles exist among these people, because they’re his people. And I think that when you exercise faith, and you’ve obeyed the gospel– we disagree over the gospel. In the Mormon Church, for instance, there’s a lot of doctrines, the doctrine of the priesthood, and so forth, temple doctrines and so forth. In the Book of Mormon, Jesus says, “There’s one doctrine. This is my doctrine: faith, repentance, baptism, and the reception of the Holy Ghost.” Well, all of the Restoration churches believe that. We believe that when we baptize people in the waters of regeneration, that their sins are remitted, and they receive the laying on our hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost. Jesus goes on to say, “If you teach more or less than this, you’re, not of Me.” In fact, in the earliest days of the Restoration, before the church had been restored, while they’re in the process of translating the Book of Mormon, Jesus defines his church, “Whosoever repented, and cometh unto me, the same as my church. Whosoever teaches more or less than this is not of Me, but it’s of the devil.” That’s a pretty simple explanation. There’s another passage in Nephi. He says, and it’s often misquoted in the Reorganized Church, people will quote it this way, “The day will come when there will be only two churches: the Church of the Lamb of God, and the Church of the devil.” But the Book of Mormon doesn’t say that. It says there are save two churches, only; the Church of the Lamb of God, and the Church of the devil.”

Patrick 26:02 So the church has got to be bigger than what we have envisioned, that it’s just our little part of the restoration. In fact, there are people outside the restoration, the Lord spoke to Sidney Rigdon, when he was called into the work and recognized some of the work that he had done. But he said, “There are none that doeth good, except those who are ready to receive the fullness of my gospel.” Well, there are people outside the Restoration that haven’t embraced the gospel, but maybe they’re ready to receive it. If a quarterback goes back to throw the football, and there’s five or six receivers, only one of them may catch the ball, but they all have to be ready to receive it. And I think there are people out there ready to receive it. The problem is, we’re so mixed up among ourselves and define ourselves by who we’re not and separating ourselves from one another, that we’re having a hard time passing that ball down the field to those receivers that are ready to receive it. So, I think there’s a lot of help on the way, Rick. I think there’s some awesome Christians out there that would be enriched by the message of the Restoration. It’s not so much that we came to tear down what they have, [but] that the gospel came to build up that which they had. So, we have a very positive message. That’s why Section one says [that] we’re the only true and living church. You know, when I share the Gospel, I don’t stress that particular verse that way. That means when you tell someone, “Well, I belong to the only true and living church,” they think, “Oh, well my church is dead and false.”

GT 27:33 Right.

Patrick 27:34 So it’s not a real winning message. And that doesn’t mean that that couldn’t be true. It just means that’s not a good marketing strategy to tell the story. I think that we ought to be mindful of the fact that God is laboring with people outside the Restoration. He’s answering their prayers. He’s guiding, directing them. They’re having blessings. And there’s a lot of virtue outside the Restoration that would enrich us, as well, as a people. We have something to offer them, but we need be and have a platform where we can share it with them. And the more united we are, the stronger and wider our testimony would be. In fact, I like to talk about how each of the groups of the Restoration have a unique personality. The Mormon Church is a powerful organization. They accomplish a lot of things. They’ve translated the Book of Mormon into 100 plus languages. That’s significant. That’s remarkable. You have the little church over here, The Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonite.) They’re very small in comparison. But they’re, like Steve Pynakker, says they’re a Pentecostal branch of the Restoration. Well, all of us believe in the Pentecostal-type gifts, but they’re a gifted church. And so, each of these groups have something different to offer. And there’s a synergy that will be formed when we come together, as a people, and we marry our strengths, and it minimizes our weaknesses, and it enlivens our testimony.

GT 29:02 Yeah. Since you brought that up, I was impressed with the number of Bickertonite testimonies you have in your book. Has it been easy to work with certain groups more than others, in order to get those testimonies?

Patrick 29:17 Well, just in having an opportunity to mingle among different people, you hear testimony, or you might receive a book from them or a journal and you read it and you find these testimonies or you have personal experience with them. And it wasn’t hard to obtain them. It just took a period of time. But we met a lot of wonderful Latter-day Saints in the Church of Jesus Christ, and they have some wonderful testimonies. We’ve met some wonderful members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who have wonderful testimonies. And we have many in the Reorganized Church. So, it’s just a matter of listening and making notations and collecting them and putting them in a book.

GT 29:58 Because I noticed you had President Nelson in there. That was just a conference address he gave. It wasn’t like you personally wrote him and said, “Hey, can you give us your testimony of the Book of Mormon?”

Patrick 30:07 No, but I have a funny testimony about that. Actually, that was when he was a surgeon.

GT 30:11 Okay.

Patrick 30:11 Before he was, I suppose, before he was in the Quorum of the Twelve.

GT 30:15 I was trying to remember if that was President Kimball’s [surgery.] Because he operated on President Kimball. He was President Kimball’s heart surgeon.

Patrick 30:22 Oh? Well, he did administer, excuse me, he performed surgery on a Patriarch in your church. And that’s what his testimony is about.

GT 30:31 Okay.

Patrick 30:32 So when I was getting ready to publish this book, Lulu Publishing, it’s a self-publishing organization. And they said, “We can’t use that testimony. It’s too long.”

Patrick 30:43 And I thought, “Well, gosh, it’s not really any longer than some other ones in the book. In fact, there are others that are a couple pages longer.” But, anyway, they wouldn’t let me publish it. So, I was at BYU, and I went down to the copyright office and tried to get some help and really didn’t get anywhere.

Patrick 31:00 And finally they said, “Well, maybe you have to get an audience with the First Presidency, meet President Nelson.”

Patrick 31:06 I said, “Well, how long will that take?”

Patrick 31:07 They said, “Probably five or six months.”

GT 31:10 (Chuckling) That’s been my experience, too.

Patrick 31:11 I decided to try something different. So, I went home, and I contacted a copyright attorney, explained to him my situation. A couple of weeks went by. I didn’t hear from him. I contacted him, and he said, “Now tell me again, what it is you’re looking for.”

Patrick 31:25 I said, “Well, there’s this testimony I want to put in my book. And the publisher says I can’t use it because it’s too long.”

Patrick 31:32 And he says, “Well, who is this person?”

Patrick 31:34 I said, Well, he happens to be the president of a worldwide church, maybe 16-17 million people.

Patrick 31:39 And he said, “You mean he’s like the Pope?”

Patrick 31:43 And I said, “Well, in a sense, because he’s a leader of a worldwide church.”

Patrick 31:46 He says, “I get it.”

Patrick 31:47 So, he writes the publisher, and they sent back a release and they said, “You can use this testimony.” So, it’s in the book.

GT 31:54 So he wrote to Lulu or he wrote to…

Patrick 31:58 He wrote to Lulu, who was my publisher.

GT 32:00 Okay.

Patrick 32:00 Yeah.

GT 32:01 And they said it was okay.

Book of Mormon Restoration Conference

Interview

GT 32:08 I know, Robert Millet was on the back cover and he had attended a conference [that] you–were you instrumental in bringing that Book of Mormon conference in Independence?

Patrick 32:15 Well, several years ago, probably about 2010 or 2011, myself and another elder came out here and we met some professors at BYU. We had a wonderful discussion. And Bob Millet said to me, Robert Millet said to me, “If there’s anything we can ever do for you, just let us know. We’re glad you’re believers in the Book of Mormon.”

Patrick 32:37 And I said, “Well, there is something you can do. We are holding a Restoration, a Book of Mormon festival in Independence. And we’re wondering if the BYU professors would like to be a part of it.”

Patrick 32:47 So they said, “Yeah.” So, a couple of professors came out and spoke, and it was a real hit. They came out, Keith Wilson and Richard Moore. They were a couple of guys that came out and then we created a committee. We worked in conjunction with BYU. We created a two-night event. We’d be one night in an LDS facility and one night in an RLDS or Reorganized building or Remnant Church, something. And we made sure we had Mormons on each night and non-Mormons on each night, so everybody would come. And Bob Millet came and spoke and the testimony my book, he shared in my home branch after the symposium was over, or the festival. He came and spoke in our congregation. In fact, I’ve got to tell you about that. We had seven professors upfront at church one Sunday morning, and I was in charge of the service. My brother, Jim, was upfront with me and another man by the name of Joseph Smith. He’s a great-grandson of Joseph Smith, Jr. He’d been raised in the Hedrickites, the Temple Lot Church.

GT 33:55 Oh, wow.

Patrick 33:55 So before the [meeting,] we went up front. We all met in the pastor’s study and I said, “I want you folks from BYU to know that when you go back home, you can tell your Saints, that you found the land of Zarahemla.” That was the name of our branch, the Zarahemla Branch, “And that you met Joseph Smith.”

GT 34:13 (Chuckling)

Patrick 34:13 Anyway, Bob Millet shared his testimony and that’s what’s in this book. It’s a remarkable testimony that he shared, and all of the professors have been just really positive in sharing their testimony of Christ. And we come to the symposium, we don’t talk about the differences in our churches. We’ve just talked about the power of the book. But we got added insight when they came to our congregation shared their personal witness of Christ–some very interesting stories of struggles and answered prayer and experiences they’ve had that’s really equipped them to be, really, men of God. It’s been wonderful.

GT 34:54 Great, it does seem like the LDS Church has been more open to these ecumenical councils and conferences. And I think you’re probably a big part of that. Is that true? Would you take credit for that?

Patrick 35:14 I don’t want to take credit for anything, I just think a door opened, we walked through it. And they’ve been very agreeable to work with us. In fact, our trip out here on this visit, one of the things we want to do is meet some of the new professors that are on this Interfaith Committee, meet the new dean of the religion department, and continue to build this kind of rapport so we can go forward. The pandemic slowed everything down.

GT 35:38 Right.

Patrick 35:38 We haven’t had a symposium in almost three years.

GT 35:41 Okay.

Patrick 35:42 So we’d like to regenerate that.

GT 35:45 Well, and you’re here for the one up in Logan at Utah State. Is that right?

Patrick 35:48 Correct.

GT 35:48 Yeah, that’s coming up this weekend [Oct 6-8, 2022.]

Patrick 35:50 Yeah, BOMSA, The Book of Mormon Study Association.

GT 35:52 Yeah. And so, it sounds like it’s been reciprocated. You have some in Independence, we have some here in Logan and stuff like that.

Patrick 36:00 Right.

The Polygamy Breach

Interview

GT 36:01 So I think that’s great. One thing I will say, and this does point to the divisions a little bit, which I’m not trying to do. But, it does seem like the LDS Church, especially with the Community of Christ and Restoration branches is pretty open to these kinds of interfaith councils. I remember speaking with Benjamin Shaffer. He’s a part one of these polygamist groups. It does seem like the polygamist groups, especially, still get excluded. And I know there’s a big issue, theologically, with that. But can you speak to that? Are you open to what we would call fundamentalist Mormons joining these kinds of things as long as they’re talking about the Book of Mormon?

Patrick 36:52 That’s an interesting question. And of course, that’s a significant issue with most of Mormonism, except Utah Mormonism has accepted it as part of their history. The Reorganization not only doesn’t believe in polygamy, they don’t believe Joseph authored it. So, it’s on the horns of those dilemmas that we’ve had this opposition all these years. I’m open to having dialogue with anyone. But you don’t want to cut your nose off to spite your face. And that’s a step that’s pretty hard for most people to accept, not someone who says [that] we believed in polygamy in the past, but to say that we practice polygamy today. It’s a little bit difficult. But I’d be willing to talk to anybody, whether they’re a polygamist or not. But that’s a big step to take. And you realize that you could scuttle something that you’re trying to do, if you get so wide that people feel that that’s too far a reach for us. It’s a pretty far reach for people to open their church up and let a Mormon come and speak behind their pulpit. So, that’s just how, pragmatically, how it works, Rick.

GT 38:06 Okay, so it is still pretty hard to accept the polygamous groups in there, just because of polygamy is such a controversial topic?

Patrick 38:17 Yeah, I think it’s, I think, for most Christians, and for most Latter Day Saints, if we exclude the Utah church for a moment, I think all of them would have a problem with the idea of a practicing polygamist, of having compatibility. What we’ve tried to do in our gatherings together, we’ve tried to come together on what we agree on, what our commonality is, and that’s the Book of Mormon. And, of course, the Book of Mormon is much stronger than the Bible is. It says David and Solomon had many wives and concubines, which thing was an abomination. Now, the Utah Church has interpreted that, “Except I command you,” and so forth. But the rest of the Restoration doesn’t view that chapter that way. Anyway, the Book of Mormon does condemn polygamy, at least from our vantage point. So that’s a wide stretch to include a polygamist in our fellowship like that. They’d certainly be welcome to come, and I’d be willing to talk to anybody. But I think on a larger platform, to invite people to come, I think that’s a big stretch. I mean, that’s just my opinion.

GT 39:26 Well, it’s funny because, I don’t know how familiar you are with polygamist groups. I know Lindsay Hansen Park. She has a podcast called Year of Polygamy. She’s really been instrumental, recently. I think within the last couple of years, Utah has decriminalized polygamy. She was part of that legislative effort to do that. She says part of the problem is when we exclude people, it allows people like one Warren Jeffs to thrive. Because they’ve been excluded, they can’t get any help from the LDS Church, which obviously here in Utah is a big deal. And it’s [the exclusion has] allowed a lot of abuses to happen. Warren has been marrying underage women and all sorts of things. And she says, “It’s because of this exclusion, that it allows a lot of criminals [to thrive.]” Warren Jeffs is in a Texas jail, and should be for the rest of his life, as far as I’m concerned because of the abuses that have been brought to light. So, she thinks it’s better to allow them to be open, and she’s really tried to make a lot of friendships with a lot of fundamentalists to stop these abuses. I mean, I understand the theological [issues.] I mean, I have my own issues with polygamy, anyway. You and I have talked a little bit about that. I even have a problem with Abraham and David. For heaven’s sake, the Bible’s full of polygamy. So, I can see both sides. I can understand the polygamist argument that it’s a biblical [practice.] But by excluding them, doesn’t it allow some of these abuses to happen?

Patrick 41:36 Well, I don’t know. I haven’t really thought a lot about that in light of how you’ve just projected this. But look. Anybody that’s a believer in the Restoration, the Book of Mormon, I think that they’re valuable. I think their testimony should be heard. Now, there’s ways in which we can’t go.

Troubling LDS & RLDS Groups

Patrick 41:57 If a group of people wanted to have dialogue with us and wanted to be a part of this and let that separate–we ran into a group of people that were called the Snufferites.

GT 42:08 Yes.

Patrick 42:09 And they’re kind of a recent separation from the LDS Church. And, for us, that’s not much of an issue. But for active Mormons today, that’s a little raw, because those are their people, right away. So, it’s just a matter where you are in proximity to the people that have separated from you or are different from you. I think as time goes by the Snufferites aren’t going to be viewed quite the same way as they are today, for instance. And I say Snufferites, I just mean that, that’s an individual that they think a lot of. I don’t know, just how they view him, necessarily, but maybe they…

GT 42:49 Well, I interviewed Denver Snuffer on my podcast, and he did seem like people were trying to root out his followers and kick them out of the LDS Church. And it’s funny because he’s like, “I say, you can still be LDS. There’s no problem.” Sometimes refer to that as being a dual citizen. (Chuckling)

Patrick 43:11 I did meet his wife and she said [that] they still attend their local LDS ward.

GT 43:15 Oh, I didn’t realize that. Oh, interesting. I don’t know if you follow the Chad Daybell/ Lori Vallow thing up in Idaho. Are you familiar with that?

Patrick 43:28 I’m not familiar with that.

GT 43:29 They’re a recent breakaway group. Chad and Lori, their previous spouses died mysteriously, probably murdered by them. They married, killed Lori’s children, buried them on the property. They’re kind of the prepper movement. Last days are coming anytime now. And up in Idaho, they had a pretty big following. So anytime you have these groups like Denver Snuffer, Chad Daybell, Lori Vallow, I think the LDS Church is going to be concerned about [them,] especially if they’re influential in bringing people away. But I think you’re right, as time goes on, I mean, some of those preppers you got to worry about. Because they’re always about last days and got to have my guns and we’re going to fight for the Lord and this kind of a thing. I mean, even with the RLDS Church, you’re probably familiar with Jeff Lundgren.

Patrick 44:29 Sure.

GT 44:33 I mean, that’s probably a really good analogy with Chad and Lori, these kind of apocalyptic sects. And so, I think any church, the RLDS Church, for sure was worried about Jeff Lundgren and those kinds of things. But hopefully, most people aren’t into murdering their neighbors.

Patrick 44:49 Everybody has a degree to which they can go and you go too far with some of these situations. So, I think it’s just a matter are trying to find common ground with fellow believers on things that we agree on, that they’re moral. They’re doctrinal. They’re virtuous. And yet, we have some administrative differences. And we want to try to ford that stream and do that not talking about why we’re so different, but what we have in common, with the hopes that maybe we can address those issues as we go forward. But, if the issues are so big, then you really can’t address anything. So, you work in your neighborhood, and then you work in your city, and then you work in your state, and then you work in the country. I think it’s the same way in the Restoration. We’ve got to work where we have some influence to accomplish what it is we hope to achieve.

Looking at Troubling Scriptures

Interview

GT 45:45 Well, I would like to ask you. I know Elder Renlund this weekend in General Conference justified the story of Nephi and Laban, where Nephi slew Laban. I know in Elder Renlund’s case, he’s like, “Well, that was a special case. Nephi was a prophet and was justified.” But there have been other people, Chad Daybell, or Vallow, Jeff Lundgren, that have used that story in their own lives to justify killing people. Do you have an opinion on that story of Laban? Is it problematic? Nephi said to liken all scriptures unto themselves, and it looks like Jeff and Lori did.

Patrick 46:29 Okay, that’s a fair question. Of course, Nephi says he was commanded to slay Laban.

Patrick 46:34 He’d been delivered into his hands. You go back to the day of , who was the high priest, a literal descendant of Aaron, and firstborn all the way up until the time of Christ. And he prophesied. We wouldn’t think he was a good guy, because he resisted the disciples and so forth. But he said, “It’s better that one man die than a whole nation perish unbelief.”[1] And that was a true prophecy regarding Christ. I think in the case of Lehi and his colony, the Lord preserved a remnant of Jacob through this process. And it is extreme, I suppose. But it fell within the parameters of the scriptural idea that if you were to commit manslaughter, and you fled to a wilderness or another place within the Levitical law, that there was justification. Of course, Nephi fled into the wilderness. And they did retrieve the plates, and they were able to preserve their nation. So, I’m not sure that Jeffrey Lundgren preserved anything. I think that was an aberrant expression of that. [Jeffrey] used it just to try to justify it after the fact. And you look at Nephi’s whole life and you see a person a virtue, and you see a person that is faithful. We don’t find that continuity in the people that you’ve elicited to kind of draw that comparison.

GT 46:52 So you’re saying you think that the Nephi story was justified?

Patrick 48:09 Yeah.

GT 48:09 But we wouldn’t justify that today? That’s not a scripture that we should liken unto ourselves?

Patrick 48:15 Yeah, I think we can liken it unto ourselves. And like I said, I drew the bigger picture of what Caiaphas said about Christ. Jesus came for one reason. He came to die. In the midst of that, He performed miracles, healed the sick, called men in ministry, established the church. But none of that would have mattered, had he not died. And so, the prophecy of Caiaphas comes into full view here for us. That was the purpose. And so, just like I think what Jesus told Judas, “What thou doest, do quickly.” I think God foresaw what would happen and allowed it to happen. And I think he allowed that to happen with Nephi.

GT 48:59 Interesting.

Patrick 49:02 It begs the question, too, if that becomes problematic for saints, then maybe the whole testimony of the book isn’t valuable, or isn’t true. Do you know I mean? Whether we understand everything or not, if we throw out a story, because we think that we can’t justify that, then then maybe the book isn’t what it claims to be. So that’s the horns of that dilemma. You either believe [or not.] I met a man recently. He said, “I can accept about 85% of the Book of Mormon.” He said, “I have a hard time getting my hands around the enormity of the revelation.”

Patrick 49:40 I said, “Well, it doesn’t work that way. You’re never 85% pregnant. You’re either pregnant or you’re not. Either the book is what it claims to be or it’s not.” And so, whether we understand everything in the book, Rick, if we have a witness that the book is true and accept it as the word of God, then it’s not so much that the stories are true. It’s that we need to continue to find reasons to seek for understanding how that actually manifests itself, how we live that, how we understand that, and how we accept that. But I think when we take an exception and try to overlay it and make it the law or make it the rule with all of us. I think that’s probably a mistake.

GT 50:24 Well, I mean, the Bible is full of stuff that I have real problems with. Let’s talk David and polygamy and Solomon and polygamy. It even justifies slavery, especially in the Old Testament. So, wouldn’t you view, especially David and Solomon and even Israel, with his four wives and their dysfunctional 12 children, (Chuckling) let’s go there. Because I know you’re not you’re not a fan of polygamy, right?

Patrick 51:03 Correct.

GT 51:04 So was Jacob justified to have four wives?

Patrick 51:10 Well, God gave them to him. You know, it says, in the Book of Acts..

GT 51:15 Isn’t that the easiest thing, though? If I say, “Well, God told me to rob a bank,” or “God told me to kill my children,” or God told me, you know, I’m Jeff Lundgren. He killed his family. Isn’t that kind of a [get out of jail free card]? I mean, who can argue with that? Right?

Patrick 51:30 Right. And that’s a fair question, just looking from the outside. But the Scripture says that David was a man after my own heart. But David also was cast into the prison house. And so, there’s a consequence. He repented in all cases, except the case of Uriah where he sent him to the frontlines. He was killed, so he [David] could have Bathsheba. So, there’s a consequence for what David’s actions were. Solomon was the wisest man in the world, but he ended up with 700 wives and concubines. But I believe that the luster came off on these individuals.

British Israelism

Interview

Patrick 52:08 Now, we had a promise in the Old Testament, the Davidic Covenant, there would not fail a man to sit upon the throne, until Shiloh comes, and then him shall the gathering be. So that’s a covenant made with David and his seed that’s not conditional. It wasn’t based on righteousness. It was a Davidic Covenant that would go from father to son, until Christ would come to reign. The Queen of England today was a literal descendant of the house of Judah. And she presided over Israel in the isles of the sea. And whatever you think of Queen Elizabeth, or her ancestors has nothing to do with whether the promise was true.

Patrick 52:48 The Bible speaks to the election of race, and the election of grace. We think that the house of Israel has been blessed. Your white Anglo-Saxon Protestants have–Israel went north and west and populated the isles of the sea. When they came to England, the French gave them the name Angleterre. The Book of Romans says that they would lose their identity and in Isaac would they be called. So, they were Isaac’s sons or Saxons, at the end of the earth, Angleterre. So, they were Anglo-Saxons. So, God has blessed that race of people. But that’s a physical blessing. It has nothing to do with their salvation. We’re all saved by grace, and we’re not saved by our race. But there are certain people that have had privilege. And so, they’ve really been called to be a servant race, and not to dominate. And so, we see this played out in history. We look at things in an isolated view. But if you look at the whole span of history, the children of Israel went west and north and populated the isles of the sea. And some of the greatest things that have happened in the world have come because of descendants of the house of Israel. I’ve been privileged to go to the African continent, and the British did a lot of good in Africa. Now, they had a lot of colonialism that wasn’t so good. But they brought industry. They brought education. They brought religion. And when Rhodesia changed its name and they kicked the British out Zimbabwe, it’s really struggling. And so, for all the bad that the British did with their imperialism, they did a lot of good. And I think the children of Israel have been a blessing around the world. I think the United States is a blessed country. I think we have a constitution and a form of government that has been a blessing all around the world but has nothing to do with our spiritual salvation. That’s a physical blessing. And so, we have to look at the big picture, the promise made to the house of Israel, “in thee and they seed.” David and Solomon and Rehoboam, all of that going down, there were a lot of problems, a lot of family problems.

GT 55:04 So let me make sure I’m understanding that. Because I’ve heard this referred to as British Israelism or something. You’re saying that the 12 tribes inhabited the British Isles?

Patrick 55:17 I’m saying that when they went into Assyrian captivity in about 721 BC, they never returned. They didn’t go back to the land of Ephraim. Now, the Jews were in captivity and went back. But Israel was dispersed among all nations. Nany of them went through Northwestern Europe and populated the isles of the sea. And it says that they would come of them a nation and a company of nations. Well, when Great Britain became Great Britain, they used the Union Jack, which was Scotland and Ireland, and they became a company of nations. And the time came when the sun wouldn’t set on the British Empire, it went around the globe. And, of course, that kingdom has diminished today. But there was a time when they were the mightiest nation in the world. And many of our ancestors came from Great Britain and came to the Americas. So, I think history has validated the fact that those prophecies were true, that God used a group of people to propagate things that he thought were necessary: creating an America, enriching the soil for the sowing of the coming forth of the church in the latter days, creating a Constitutional Republic where the church could be birthed. I think that’s a remarkable event in history. And so, maybe that answers your question, I don’t know.

Patriarchal Blessings

Interview

GT 56:47 Wow, I didn’t expect that. That’s really interesting. So, I guess that brings up another question. I know in the LDS Church, and I believe the RLDS Church and I’m curious about the Joint Conference of Restoration Branches, we, LDS and RLDS have patriarchs that pronounce lineage of members of the church. Do you guys have patriarchs in the Joint Conference?

Patrick 57:15 We do.

GT 57:16 Okay. And so, do they pronounce lineage of Israel?

Patrick 57:20 You know, I’m sure some of them do. I’ve not read any of the blessings they’ve given. But that was a part of the Reorganization. And these patriarchs, some are in our movement that were part of the Reorganization, and some have been called since. But I think that’s certainly within the purview of their calling, to point out the lineage of those that that are so blessed.

GT 57:45 Okay, so you still practice patriarchal blessings. And so, is it pretty typical for them to say, “Patrick McKay, you’re of the house of Ephraim or Mannaseh,” or whoever?

Patrick 57:58 Well, I can tell you in my blessing that was identified.

GT 58:01 Okay.

Patrick 58:01 So I haven’t read other people’s blessings.

GT 58:04 Okay. But would it be pretty typical, would you say?

Patrick 58:07 I think it’s very probable that that’s identified in most blessings.

GT 58:11 Okay.

Structure of JCRB/Common Baptisms & Priesthood

Interview

GT 58:16 Can you tell us a little bit more about the structure of the JCRB, if I can just use that abbreviation? (Chuckling)

Patrick 58:21 Okay.

GT 58:22 Are you, like, the head apostle or president the Quorum of the Twelve, or whatever?

Patrick 58:27 Neither, neither.

GT 58:28 Okay.

Patrick 58:30 Our structure is we’re a group of branches that met and continue to worship, and there’s been kind of unfolding revelation regarding as the church has grown and as ministry has been necessary. So, the apostles are the leading missionary quorum of the church and there are Seventies under them. We have high priests, and we have elders, priests, teachers, and deacons, just like the LDS Church does. And we have a conference. Each year at our conference, we select someone to preside over–we’ve had different individuals preside. They’re not the president of the church. They’re president of the conference, just during the conference week. So, we’re not a full organization. We’re not a Reorganization of the church. But just like men continue to be called to the office of deacon, teacher, priest and elder in our fractured Restoration branch setting, in our corporate setting, we’ve been able to call men to what you would call general church responsibilities, higher offices, seventies, apostles, patriarchs, etc. So, that’s all we’re doing. We consider ourselves not a new church. We’re just part of the church and continuity. We’re not more of the church than those who are not part of the joint conference, but we consider ourselves a part of the church.

GT 59:57 Okay, so is every congregation an independent unit, then, pretty much? They call their own pastors and leaders and that sort of a thing? Do you have like a stake president, or what we would call a stake president?

Patrick 1:00:12 We do not. We believe in that kind of structure. But in our fractured state, we have independent branches, and each branch selects their own presiding elder or priest if it’s small and they don’t have an elder, for instance. But it’s by the voice of the people. Some of the branches had come together. And we have one group in the Restoration called the Conference of Elders, and a group of elders meet. And they don’t really have any say in the branches, except they meet, and they hold conferences. They have a magazine and they publish what they think are good intentions for the saints, things they’d like to see them do. Out of the Restoration Branch movement came the Remnant Church, where they actually fully organized, selected a prophet, a pastor, a presiding elder, excuse me.

GT 1:01:06 Fred Larsen.

Patrick 1:01:07 President Larsen and then the Vun Cannon group that you mentioned, sprang out of that. Because when their president died, there was, again, another struggle, a succession struggle for power, for leadership. So, in the Joint Conference, we’re a group of Restoration branches that have chosen to come together and we’ve organized to the degree that we feel we’ve been directed to, but we don’t consider ourselves more the church than other parts of the Restoration Branch movement.

GT 1:01:38 Would each of these branches have slightly different names.

Patrick 1:01:42 Yes.

GT 1:01:42 Okay. But, kind of a loosely affiliated group, then, basically.

Patrick 1:01:48 Right.

GT 1:01:50 And then, did you say they were in 23 countries? {Patrick nods} And so, do these groups vote on apostles? Or how do apostles get called? Obviously, you’re not going to live forever, unfortunately.

Patrick 1:02:07 Okay. Well, right now in the Joint Conference of Branches, if there are additional calls to the office of apostle, it would originate in the Quorum of Apostles. And that would have to be offered to the Saints, and then in a general conference, they would have to approve that and authorize an ordination. It’s very similar to what you do in the LDS Church in that regard. We can’t just go and ordain somebody. There has to be a conference approval.

GT 1:02:42 Common consent.

Patrick 1:02:44 The voice of the people approval.

GT 1:02:47 Okay, do you would do you see it expanding to 12? Or would that be where the limit is?

Patrick 1:02:53 Oh, that’s certainly a possibility. Revelation comes, if that direction comes. I think a lot of revelation comes based on circumstance, situation. I think the locus of divine revelation is always history, what’s happening? What needs to happen and so forth?

GT 1:03:15 Have there always been eight, or how did they get chosen?

Patrick 1:03:19 Actually, there were two called. There was a revelation. The conference accepted those calls. And then those two began the process of calling others and two of our apostles had died that were called, and one has been chosen to replace those.

GT 1:03:37 Okay, and that was, approximately, what year, when the first two were called?

Patrick 1:03:43 [It was] 2016.

GT 1:03:44 Oh, 2016. I didn’t realize it was that new. Okay. What happened in 2005?

Patrick 1:03:51 There was the [Joint] Conference of Branches came into existence.

GT 1:03:55 Okay.

Patrick 1:03:56 The JCRB, Joint conference.

GT 1:03:58 And then there was a revelation in 2016, where first two, and then…

Patrick 1:04:03 Those two were then tasked, as they were led and directed to call others, and so there have been others called since that time, attempting to fill the quorum, at least it’s filled to the degree that it is at this point. I don’t know that there’s any–there isn’t any hurry. There isn’t any tendency to fill it just to fill it. There has to be revelation. In the Restoration Branch Movement, we haven’t decided organize and ordain a prophet. We don’t think we can call him out of thin air. We believe if that were to happen, God would have to be in the matter.

GT 1:04:41 Okay. But you would expect some sort of a revelation, kind of like what happened in the Remnant Church.

Patrick 1:04:49 Sure, there’d have to be a divine manifestation for that to take place, of course.

GT 1:04:56 Are you still kind of affiliated with the Remnant Church?

Patrick 1:04:59 Well, we’re not affiliated, except that we know a lot of people in the Remnant Church and they come out of the same basket we do, out of the Reorganization. Many of them were baptized 30-40 years ago, and we would accept those baptisms as authoritative. Some of those ordinations, we accept is authoritative. We might not agree with their higher offices, but it wouldn’t disqualify their Melchizedek priesthood, let’s say.

GT 1:05:24 Okay, so anything up to high priests, you’d probably accept that their priesthood was valid.

Patrick 1:05:30 Sure, if they were ordained, if they could trace their priesthood in an unbroken chain back to the angel, then we would accept their ministrations to that degree. Now, regarding the organization of their organization, that’s a question.

JCRB/RLDS Disagreements

Interview

GT 1:05:46 Yes. So if an LDS person wanted to join with your group, would you accept their Melchizedek priesthood?

Patrick 1:05:53 Are you asking me, personally, or are you asking what the view of the church is?

GT 1:05:57 The view of the church.

Patrick 1:05:58 Probably not.

GT 1:06:00 Okay.

Patrick 1:06:01 I think that, again, we go back to our discussion earlier that…

GT 1:06:04 Even though they could trace it back to the angel?

Patrick 1:06:06 Even though they can trace it back, they follow Brigham Young, so they have to be wrong. So I think that that’s a stream that’s difficult for the Saints to get over and I anticipate the day will come when the branches of the restoration can deal with the elephant in the room, which is priesthood authority. I think it’s a stumbling block for all of us. Because there are men who can trace their priesthood in an unbroken chain to the angel. They make the same claim we do. They can say, “I’ve laid hands on the sick and they’ve recovered. I’ve heard a voice. Under my hands, the dead have been raised. An angel appeared in my ordination.” Whatever–however, they want to frame their experience, it may be as valid as mine.

GT 1:06:58 Okay, would you accept an LDS baptism? Or would they have to be baptized into your church?

Patrick 1:07:03 Well, presently, we’d have to re-baptize them, just like I’d have to be rebaptized in the LDS Church, because the issue of authority hasn’t been dealt with, hasn’t been resolved.

GT 1:07:13 But within the RLDS or Community of Christ person, would you, you’d recognize their baptism and ordination?

Patrick 1:07:21 We would accept their baptism and ordination, if there wasn’t a broken chain. In the formation of the Restoration Branches, one of the things that catapulted us into this situation, was the ordination of women. And so, we don’t accept that. We believe women have divine callings. We believe they’re virtuous, they’re smart, may be smarter than a lot of us. But we don’t believe they hold priesthood.

GT 1:07:46 So, if they were ordained by a woman, would that be a…

Patrick 1:07:49 That would be a stumbling block.

GT 1:07:49 It would be a stumbling block. Oh, interesting. Okay. So you wouldn’t recognize, can I call that the 1984 revelation? I don’t remember.

Patrick 1:08:01 Right.

GT 1:08:02 Okay. Are there any other issues between the Community of Christ and your group?

Patrick 1:08:10 Oh, yeah, there’s a lot of issues.

GT 1:08:13 Can you share some of those?

Patrick 1:08:14 Sure. You know, officially, there’s things like open communion. In the Restoration Branch Movement we’re closed communion. In the Community of Christ, they will serve the sacrament to anybody who wants to partake of it. Recently, in 2010, they would accept baptisms in other faiths. As long as they were baptized, they would accept that as membership, but they would have to be confirmed.

GT 1:08:40 As long as they weren’t [baptized as] infants.

Patrick 1:08:42 But now they I believe they they’re at a point where they’re accepting all baptisms. Right now, the Community of Christ doesn’t have any salvific ordinances. They don’t believe any of the ordinances are necessary for salvation. That doesn’t mean they don’t practice them, but they don’t believe they’re necessary. There’s been a real de-emphasis of the historicity of the Book of Mormon. The Church’s position is they accept the Book of Mormon as a scripture, as part of their history, but they don’t believe there was really a Nephi or a Mormon or Moroni and so forth. So, these are difficult things, the idea of Zion, that the church has moved to a position that Zion has a center of nowhere and a circumference of everywhere. They de-emphasize the gathering, the Book of Mormon, the Ministry of Joseph Smith. They don’t, the leadership hasn’t viewed Joseph in as favorable a light, I should say, as the LDS Church has.

GT 1:09:40 I’ve been really surprised to hear some things from the Community of Christ about Joseph Smith.

Patrick 1:09:45 Right.

GT 1:09:45 It’s been really surprising. Okay, so open communion, you guys are closed communion, so you would only serve to members of your church.

Patrick 1:09:56 People that are authoritatively baptized.

GT 1:09:58 Okay.

Patrick 1:09:59 And again, I think the day will come–when Jesus appeared to the Nephites and Nephi was there. In fact, when Samuel preached on the wall and those who believed his testimony, they came to Nephi and were baptized. But when Jesus came, everybody was baptized. And maybe the day will come in the Restoration when we’re all rebaptized. I don’t know. But maybe that’s it. Anyway, I think he’ll heal the breach somehow.

GT 1:10:27 Yeah.

Patrick 1:10:27 We’ll overcome this separation, which divides us, is our understanding of authority, who has it and who doesn’t?

GT 1:10:36 So I know in the 1930s, I believe it was, there was an agreement between the, I’m going to call it the RLDS Church, because that’s what they were known as then. [There was an agreement between] the RLDS Church and the Temple Lot Church, where they would recognize each other’s baptisms. And I don’t know if that’s[true now.] I guess it’s kind of a moot point now, because Community of Christ accepts almost anybody’s baptism. My understanding is they have to be at least eight. They don’t accept infant baptisms. Would you see, if there was ever a relationship worked out with the LDS Church where we said, “Okay, well, accept your baptisms, if you’ll accept ours, and vice versa?” Would you ever see that happening?

Patrick 1:11:23 Well, let’s go back to the example you gave. About 1900, there was a committee from the Reorganized Church, and the Church of Christ on the Temple Lot. And they met and they discussed, they debated and so forth. And out of that came what was called a working harmony, where they identified the points that they agreed on. And they shared baptisms and ordinations. And then, in 1927, there was a revelation given in the Church of Christ Temple Lot saying the Reorganized Church has been rejected. And about 3000 members left the Reorganized Church and joined the Church of Christ on the Temple Lot. That work in harmony was shattered. But there was, for a period of years, there was Frederick M. Smith [who] went to the Temple Lot and partook of the sacrament. And so, there was a working harmony. Of course, we’re a long way from that now in the church. But that kind of idea, I think, is a work in harmony. I think that you we’re never going to get there, if we don’t at least sit down and begin talking about it, identifying what we agree on, what we disagree on, asking for divine intervention help, help us over this. How do we overcome this difference? Is it overcome-able? And I think if we don’t ask those questions, we’re never going to get there.

GT 1:12:47 So can you see that ever happening with, say, the LDS Church, that you’d have a working harmony?

Patrick 1:12:53 Well, sure. I think anything’s possible. And I would like to work towards that end. And you know, there’s just a lot of obstacles in the way, but I think there’s been a thawing in the last 10 years or so where there’s definitely, there’s dialogue now between the churches that they haven’t had. And in the Restoration Branch Movement, we’re also fractured. And so, we don’t have one organization that can interface with another organization. So, the restoration is great when it comes to fracturing. We say we believe in the gathering and what we do is we practice the scattering. So that’s been a bit of a stumbling block for the Saints.

Book of Mormon Historicity

Interview

GT 1:13:37 Yeah, definitely. Let’s jump to the Book of Mormon historicity. There’s been a lot of people, Simon Sotherton, Thomas Murphy, people like that, even Ugo Perego who have said [that] there’s no evidence that Native Americans have any Israelite DNA. So, some people have rejected the Book of Mormon based on that. Of course, there’s other people that have tried to say, “Where did the Book of Mormon take place?” And there’s, of course, Mesoamerica, Heartland even I don’t know if you’ve heard of Malay. {Patrick nods} Have you heard of the Malay? Baja California, that kind of a thing? And I know that’s a big question. We probably should break that into pieces. But where would you like to go with that?

Patrick 1:14:34 Well, that’s interesting. You know, the mitochondria DNA that they talk about goes through the mother’s line. And if I was a Jew, I’ve asked myself if I had a son would I name him Ishmael? I probably wouldn’t.

GT 1:14:49 They used to in the centuries ago.

Patrick 1:14:55 So, they went, Nephi and his brothers went back And they brought Ishmael and Ishmael daughters and they married Lehi’s boys. So, it says they were Ishmaelite-ish. I don’t know, really, what that means. That’s a phrase that’s in the Book of Mormon. So, when we come to America, when I was a youngster, I assumed, I watched the Yankees play the Cardinals in the 1964 World Series. And I saw…

GT 1:15:25 Bob Gibson was in that one.

Patrick 1:15:26 And I saw the stadium full in St. Louis. And I said, “Wow, look at that. Those are all Latter Day Saints. They live in Missouri.” And I assumed everybody in Missouri was a Latter Day Saint. And a lot of Saints grew up believing that the Americas were populated by Nephi, and he’s the colony. That isn’t true. There were peoples here. We know the Jaredites were here. We believe there were others here. If you go to the Heartland model, they find evidence of Indian mounds and so forth, and relics everywhere. We understand when Solomon built his temple, that they came. The Phoenicians brought people here, and they brought copper back for Solomon’s temple. So, there’s been a lot of traffic here in the Americas. And, this is a small colony that comes to America. And now we’ve suggested, [that] well, we don’t find enough Indian heritage to suggest the Book of Mormon is real. I don’t think that’s an accurate or fair depiction of a way to prove the authenticity of the book. And I’m not a geneticist. I couldn’t give you all of the haplotypes and all of that except to say that I think that’s problematic, and that’s why I like the Mesoamerican model. It’s a limited geographic area. It isn’t all of the Americas. And I think it predated the DNA assault on the Book of Mormon. And it really insulates us, because we didn’t claim that all of America were descendants of Lehi and his colony.

GT 1:16:55 Did you grow up believing what they would call a hemispheric model?

Patrick 1:16:58 Yeah, as a kid, I figured all the people in America were descendants of the Book of Mormon peoples. What did I know? I was just a kid and it seemed to work just like watching the Yankees play the Cardinals. All those cardinals were members of the RLDS Church.

GT 1:17:15 Aren’t they Royals fans? The Royals didn’t exist back then, probably.

Patrick 1:17:18 The A’s did, but they weren’t in the World Series.

GT 1:17:20 Oh, that’s right. I forgot about the Kansas City A’s. So, you’re more of a Meso guy, personally?

Patrick 1:17:29 I am.

GT 1:17:30 I know, because we were talking to off camera before and you said the Heartland is making a big inroads with the JCRB. Is that right?

Patrick 1:17:39 I don’t know if they’re making [inroads] with the JCRB, I just think there’s a lot of people in the center place, somewhere in the JCRB, some are not, who are intrigued by Rod Meldrum’s work. He has done a lot of work. He’s produced a lot of literature. I’m of the opinion that it’s hard to fit the narrow neck of land up there in the Great Lakes. I also find it’s difficult when there are no cold words in the Book of Mormon, other than when Nephi says that the fruit was whiter than snow. They lived in Jerusalem. They had the same pattern as we have. They had snow there. But they had battles all year long in the Book of Mormon. There are no galoshes, no boots, no rain, no hail, no snow. And, of course, if Joseph Smith wrote the book, obviously, that would have been in there because he grew up in upstate New York. But we don’t find that in the record. And so, I think it’s problematic to take the Book of Mormon story and say it began here in North America, but I do think people from the Book of Mormon lands did migrate all the way up through and even to the isles of the sea. Hagoth, they went in to ships and never returned. I know the LDS people believe some of the Polynesian island people are descendants of the Book of Mormon. Perhaps they’re right. I don’t know.

GT 1:18:59 Is that a big issue in the JCRB? Are there people who question the science of the Book of Mormon and where it took place? Or is that not really an issue?

Patrick 1:19:08 I don’t think that’s an issue. I think the people are curious about where it took place. The important thing is that it took place, that the historicity is true. That’s the real issue. And, of course, the Heartland model is new. It wasn’t, I mean, it’s burst forth the last 10 or 15 years, I think, where it’s really gotten steam. And some people are gravitating to that, because people have done a lot of work, produced a lot of slick literature, and maybe they’re right. I don’t know. But it’s interesting that there’s been this effort, and I think it gives people a reason to believe in the historicity of the Book of Mormon, whether it’s Mesoamerica or the Heartland model.

Comparing Latter-day Scriptures/Practices

Interview

GT 1:19:55 Interesting. Let’s jump to the Doctrine and Covenants. I guess one of the big issues– I’m always torn, do I say the RLDS Church, the Community of Christ? They decommissioned or de-canonized the revelation on baptism for the dead. What’s your position on baptism for the dead?

Patrick 1:20:22 Well, in the days of Joseph Smith, he taught baptism for the dead. My personal view is that if Joseph had the Inspired Version manuscript, when he wrote Section– it’s 110 in ours. I’m not sure what it is, the revelation on baptism for the dead in the LDS section. I’m not sure he would have created it that way. In the King James, it says, “We without our dead cannot be made perfect,” out of Hebrews. The Inspired Version says, “We without our suffering cannot be made perfect.” Now baptism for the dead is mentioned in the New Testament. But Paul comes to group of people who don’t believe in the resurrection, and they’re baptizing. And so he says, “Why do you baptize for the dead, if the dead rise not at all?” So I set it down as a mistake, personally.

GT 1:21:13 Oh.

Patrick 1:21:13 The Reorganization hasn’t viewed Joseph the same way the LDS, the Mountain Saints have viewed him. We believe that Joseph was a prophet, but we don’t believe everything Joseph did was a divine appointment. We don’t think he should have been the Lieutenant General of the Nauvoo Legion. He was told that in temporal things, he wouldn’t have strength. He was the mayor of Nauvoo. He was the editor of the Times and Seasons. He was the Lieutenant General. He was in and out of, of hiding because of all the writs of habeas corpus he had to write so he didn’t get extradited back to Missouri, with Porter Rockwell accusation of trying to kill Lilburn Boggs. So, all this is going on at the time. Anyway, this idea of baptism for the dead comes about and the Reorganization took the opinion in Joseph, III’s day that it was a local ordinance. And if it was reinstituted, that there would be further revelation on it. I think, probably, in the early 1970s, the church placed it in the historical section of the Doctrine & Covenants. And that’s where it sits. The LDS Church is big on vicarious baptisms. We have 1000 years in the millennium, if people really need to be baptized, there’s probably a lot of baptizing that could take place. You can get your own baptism. But, again, I guess, it’s open for debate. But the RLDS Church– of course, that wasn’t hard for the leadership of the RLDS Church to place that in the historical section, because they’d like to place a lot of it in the historical section. So, I don’t know. That’s an open discussion, I suppose. Some people in the Restoration Branch Movement believe in Section 107. But they’ve taken the posture of Joseph, III, that it’s a local ordinance. And if it’s ever practiced again, there’ll have to be a revelation that really identifies and explains it. And there are others that just don’t believe in it.

GT 1:23:22 Okay, would you throw out most, because I know that the RLDS Church throws out most of the Nauvoo period revelations. Is that your position as well?

Patrick 1:23:33 Well, the Reorganization more aptly represents the Kirtland period. Joseph was likened unto Joseph of Egypt. And Joseph tells of the time, there would be seven years of planting and seven years of famine. That’s why he has the dream and they save the grain and the children of Israel come down and are preserved, and go into bondage for 430 years. But there were a lot of revelations given from 1828 until 1837. And after that time, there’s very few revelations that were received by the church. And so, I think there is a difference. I would say the Utah church more clearly represents the Nauvoo period, and the RLDS Church, the Kirtland period.

GT 1:24:17 And so would it be safe to say there’s no official position for baptism for the dead in the JCRB?

Patrick 1:24:27 Yeah, I don’t think there’s an official position.

GT 1:24:30 You think it’s a mistake?

Patrick 1:24:32 Well, that’s a personal view.

GT 1:24:33 A personal view.

Patrick 1:24:33 That’s not a statement representing the JCRB or the Restoration Branches or anyone else. You’re asking my opinion?

GT 1:24:41 Yeah.

Patrick 1:24:42 I’m going to say, I think it’s probably a mistake.

GT 1:24:45 Okay. Did Joseph make any other mistakes in revelation that you are aware of, that you’d share?

Patrick 1:24:51 Well, I don’t know. The King Follett sermon is interesting.

GT 1:24:59 That’s Nauvoo.

Patrick 1:25:00 It wasn’t a revelation. It was a sermon that was taken down by four scribes and cataloged after Joseph’s death. I do think the Book of Abraham is a mistake.

GT 1:25:12 Oh, okay. So, you don’t recognize that.

Patrick 1:25:14 It’s a historical mistake.

GT 1:25:15 That came from Kirtland.

Patrick 1:25:16 It did. But it was published in the Times and Seasons in Nauvoo.

GT 1:25:20 Right.

Patrick 1:25:21 Yeah, I think that, you know, the Egyptologists are pretty clear that that’s a funerary script.

GT 1:25:27 Right.

Patrick 1:25:28 But of course, the Mormon Church historians don’t have that view. They believe it’s real. And I know that it’s part of your scriptures. It’s part of your belief structure. So, we have a difference of opinion on that, I suppose.

GT 1:25:44 Very good. Pearl of Great Price, what about the Book of Moses?

Patrick 1:25:55 The Book of Moses is really part of the Inspired Version, or what you might call the Joseph Smith translation. [It has] a lot of the testimony of Enoch in the early chapters of Genesis, so we accept that.

GT 1:26:07 Okay.

Patrick 1:26:09 But they put in the, in the Pearl of Great Price. I think they have the Book of Abraham that’s cataloged in there also. We would not accept that.

GT 1:26:16 Okay, so, no Abraham, Moses, yes, though.

Patrick 1:26:20 Okay. We’re good with Moses. Were good with Abraham, too. We just, we wouldn’t think that was really a true account of him. That’s all. We believe Abraham is the father of the faithful. We like Abraham.

GT 1:26:32 Yeah, but the Book of Abraham. Yeah, that’s what I’m talking about. Would you ever have a temple?

Patrick 1:26:39 Well, we have a temple. We had one at Kirtland and Section 57 of both our Doctrine & Covenants, identifies Independence as the place designated by the very Finger of God for the center place. And our Section 83 and Section 85, they speak of a temple. So, we believe in a temple. Yes. We just don’t have one in the center place right now. The only temple that we feel was built by direct command of God was the Kirtland Temple.

GT 1:27:09 Okay, would you support like a group temple, (Chuckling) a restoration temple?

Patrick 1:27:17 Well, you know, when the Hedrickites, they had an individual who came out of the Reorganization and came in that period where there was the problem with Fred M. and supreme directional control and I told you 3000 saints came over and they chose their first apostles.

GT 1:27:35 Otto Fetting, is that who you’re talking about?

Patrick 1:27:36 Yeah, Otto Fetting. He received several revelations. He claimed John the Baptist appeared to him and the Hedrickite Church accepted the first 11. When they got to the 12^th one, he said [that] those who come over have to be rebaptized. And so, they silenced him and he left, and half of those 3000 people left with Otto Fetting. So that’s the Church with the Elijah Message. But what’s interesting about that, they actually dug a hole for the temple. It was actually years later that the city filled it in, right there across from the auditorium and the Mormon’s Visitor Center. But the Mormons came to Utah, and they came to the RLDS Church. And they sought funding from both and they said, “This temple belongs to all of us.” And there’s a guy named Jean Adams, he’s an LDS fellow. He’s written about this. And it’s pretty interesting how they rejected the other church’s restoration, but we’re willing to ask them to be involved monetarily and that they could use the temple. So that’s kind of along the lines of what you’re suggesting.

GT 1:28:42 Yeah. I mean, I love Kirtland. I love that it’s so open to everybody. I would I think it would be cool if we all kind of go chip in on a temple. Of course, the LDS would chip in the most money but… (Chuckling)

Patrick 1:28:57 (Chuckling) They would have the most to chip in, I suppose.

GT 1:29:01 So it would be nice to have another Kirtland style temple there in the center place, as you guys say. All right, I’m trying to remember what else should we be talking about, as far as the JCRB is concerned. What else?

Patrick 1:29:17 Well, the JCRB, again, it’s not a church. It’s a group of saints that have coalesced and said, “We’ve been in this situation many, many years, and there needs to be a platform where the voice of the people is heard.” In the Reorganization, our conferences have been quite a bit different than they are in the other parts of the Restoration. We believe that voice and vote is pretty important, and we don’t have a lot of rubber stamping. We bring resolutions from the floor. We can debate. Frederick Madison Smith brought a revelation in 1925. And the church debated it for 10 days. He wrote a letter of resignation. He didn’t submit it but considered doing it. So that’s how feverish it can get in the RLDS Church. I mean, conference was a big thing, and the voice of the people was heard, and people debate on the floor. And that’s common consent. And when a decision is made, the minority support the decision of the whole and you do have common consent. But the process, we believe, has to be worked out. And so, the Joint Conference, really, gave the saints an opportunity everywhere, who had an authoritative baptism. And that’s the only recommendation for the conference and that they act charitable. They can come and participate. And that’s what the conference [is about.] All the Restoration branches are welcome to come. And they could change what it is we do by the voice of the people. They have that prerogative.

GT 1:30:53 There’s another group, and I’m wondering if you’re familiar with them: CRE, Conference of Restoration Elders, are they affiliated with you at all? Or is that another group?

Patrick 1:31:03 Well, again, that’s a group of saints that are in Restoration branches. And there’s a group of elders that gather together and they hold conferences. But they don’t allow the voice and vote of the general membership. The sisters aren’t able to vote, the Aaronic priesthood aren’t able to vote. And so, they just made a trip to Kirtland. They generally make a trip every year. The last couple of years, they didn’t, because of the pandemic. And they had a resolution at their last conference that we need to have a members’ conference. And I think they sensed the need for that. And of course, we have a members’ conference, and we would like to encourage them to join with us and participate with us and strengthen us and cast their lot onto this side of the labor. Yeah.

GT 1:31:55 There’s like an alphabet soup of groups, it seems like sometimes. You’re pretty well connected with a lot of them, though, aren’t you?

Patrick 1:32:02 Yeah. I’ve met quite a few of them.

GT 1:32:06 Because you’re trying to heal the breach, is that why?

Patrick 1:32:09 Correct.

GT 1:32:11 I was impressed with the number of Bickertonite people you had in your book. Do you work with them quite a bit?

Patrick 1:32:18 Well, we’ve had an opportunity to just meet a lot of them. And there’s a sister in their church who has recently passed away. She received a song and she’s not musical. She’s not poetic, but she received a song, so she wrote the words down, had no idea what to do with the music.

GT 1:32:35 Becky Tarbuck, is that the one?.

Patrick 1:32:36 Becky Tarbuck’s mother.

GT 1:32:38 Oh, her mother.

Patrick 1:32:39 And so, the next day she received another song and she thought, “I couldn’t tell anybody that. That’s like saying I saw an angel today and tomorrow I see another angel. No one will believe me.”

Patrick 1:32:49 Well, after she had nine songs, someone said, “Well, Arlene, you have a gift.” But now she’s got words, but doesn’t, hasn’t done anything with the music. It’s just in her head. And after 53 songs, they pray, her little congregation and in Pennsylvania.

Patrick 1:33:06 They pray about it and an individual in the Detroit area, hears a voice. “Go to Arlene Buffington’s.” So, he meets her. I mean, he’d known her in the church but didn’t know any of this experience she had. And they sat down on the piano, and she hummed a note. And he had his paper there. He would hit a key and she’d said, “That’s what I heard.” He’d put it down on the page, hit another key. “That’s not what I heard.” Hit another key. “That’s what I heard.” And so, they went through nine songs over a weekend and he went home and arranged them. And after all 53 songs were done, she remembered every note of every word. And she calls those the Songs of Zion. And before her death, she received 240 songs. So, we decided we would like to meet this sister. We’d heard her song at a Bickertonite Church in California. So, we wanted to know who she was. So, we made an effort to meet her. We’d met her daughter online. So, we decided to go meet her, and we stayed in her home. And we spent five days there. It was wonderful. They were terrific people. She shared a lot of testimonies, shared a lot about her music.

Patrick 1:34:14 I said, “Could we have those songs in our branch?”

Patrick 1:34:16 And she said, “No.”

Patrick 1:34:18 She says, “I’ve not given those songs to [anyone.] Even my church doesn’t have the copyright.”

Patrick 1:34:22 I said, “Well, that’s okay. Can we have them?”

Patrick 1:34:24 She said, “You’re not listening.”

Patrick 1:34:26 I said, “Well, I am! We’d really like them.”

Patrick 1:34:28 She said, “All I can do is pray about it.” So, my wife was with my brother, Jim and I and on this trip and after five days she went home and we traveled around Pennsylvania and Ohio and did some missionary work. Then we were going to come back and stay with her a night and then fly home, because they live by the Pittsburgh airport. When we got back, she shared an experience. She said, “Patrick, a couple days ago I set sat up in bed at 11 o’clock at night, put my feet on the floor and a song fell down on me.” So, she wrote words down and she got up in the morning and told her husband and her daughter about the song. The name of the song was, “Lend the Weary Ones a Song.” And after she shared that with him, she noticed a note that my wife had left that she hadn’t seen. And so, she opened it up.

Patrick 1:35:19 Joy thanked her for her hospitality and her kindness of opening their home. And her concluding line was, “This trip has been a boon to my weary soul.” And so, she gave us that song, Lend the Weary Ones a Song. She gave us a copyright release that we could reproduce those songs in our home branch.

GT 1:35:35 Oh, wow.

Patrick 1:35:36 And, some time subsequent to that, I was teaching a class at my local church, local congregation. And I was looking over my notes and I was hungry. So I went, got a bowl of cereal and I sat down at my desk, and I turned my computer on. And I thought I would listen to one of the Songs of Zion, because some of them were online. And so, I put a song on. And in the first line of that song, I heard an audible voice. I’d never heard a voice before. And it said the period of gestation is over for the songs of Zion. I thought, “Well, where did that come from? That was really unusual language.” So, I thought about it all day. And when I got home that night, I wrote Becky Tarbuck, her daughter. I didn’t want to write to Sister Arlene. I said, “I don’t know what you think of this, Becky. But this was my experience.” She said that that evening, she went to her parents home, and there were some other saints there. They discussed my testimony, my experience.

Patrick 1:36:40 And Arlene said, “I believe that experience.” And she, then, released the Songs of Zion, so anyone has availability to them today. So, she has a website, and you can go there, and you can listen to all 240 songs. You can download the music. You can play them for yourself, and they’re called the Songs of Zion. They’re beautiful.

GT 1:37:00 Interesting. Great. Was there anything else you want to share with us?

Patrick 1:37:06 Well, I want to share that this is an awesome place out here. You’re in the foothills of the Rocky Mountains. It’s beautiful. Your saints are lovely. They’ve been very welcoming. And we’ve had a great time. We’re looking forward to the event at BOMSA, at Logan, [Utah] State University to cast our lot in with other Book of Mormon students. Hopefully, what we share might enrich or strengthen them. I don’t know.

GT 1:37:32 Yeah, I know I’m happy to see you. I know Chris Thomas is going to be there.

Patrick 1:37:36 Yeah, I really want to meet him.

GT 1:37:38 Oh, you haven’t met him? Oh, he’s such a good guy.

Patrick 1:37:40 He’s Pentecostal, right?

GT 1:37:42 Correct.

Patrick 1:37:43 He wrote a book, A Pentecostal Reads the Book of Mormon.

GT 1:37:46 Yeah.

Patrick 1:37:47 Yeah. I really look forward to meeting him.

GT 1:37:49 He’s one of the most Christ-like people I know. You will love him, I’m sure. Well, great. I’m out of questions. So, if you guys want to get really spiritually inspired and read some amazing miracles, I’m going to recommend, Healing the Breach. Do you want to show it to us one more time?

Patrick 1:38:09 Sure.

GT 1:38:10 You can get it on Amazon. That’s where I got it. I actually read it between conference sessions yesterday. So, it’s a pretty quick read. And it was really fun to read a lot of those miracles. I know Becky Tarbuck is in there and Arlene Buffington, I think, as well.

Patrick 1:38:31 President Nelson’s in there.

GT 1:38:32 President Nelson.

Patrick 1:38:33 Joseph Smith, III is in there.

GT 1:38:35 Yeah.

Patrick 1:38:35 And there are many saints and they’re modern and recent and in the past.

Uniting Restoration Groups

Interview

GT 1:38:40 I think it’s great, what you’re trying to do. We do, definitely, fight way too much. And we should emphasize our similarities much more than we do. I think this is something that we should all think about. Because it doesn’t happen just in the Restoration. You’ll hear miracles of Catholics and Protestants and everything. And if God is providing those [miracles], what does that say?

Patrick 1:39:09 I know you’re ready to close this interview. But let me share with you another thought. Because we had the hiatus from our Book of Mormon symposiums, because of the pandemic, we did some different things. Last year, we held a Book of Mormon rally. And at that rally, Steve Pynakker had seen that I had advertised that and he said, “I want to come speak at your rally.”

Patrick 1:39:31 I said, “Well, you’re not in the Restoration. You don’t believe in the Book of Mormon.”

Patrick 1:39:35 He said, “I love the Mormon people. And I love talking about the Book of Mormon. I’d like to come and speak.”

Patrick 1:39:41 So, we said, “Sure, you can come.” We also had a Catholic priest come and he shared how he uses the Book of Mormon during Mass.

GT 1:39:48 Oh, really?

Patrick 1:39:48 We had a Baptist minister come and he said the Book of Mormon is more Baptist than the Baptist hymnal.

GT 1:39:54 Well, Sidney Rigdon was Baptist. Was this Lynn Ridenour?

Patrick 1:39:58 It was Lynn Ridenour, yeah. Becky Tarbuck came from the Church of Jesus Christ and shared how Angel Moroni appeared to her grandmother. Casey Griffiths from BYU came and he talked about the power of the Book of Mormon. And we had Restoration Branch. So, we had a wide variety of people affirming the value, the authenticity and the power of the book. So, that was, again, another opportunity to widen the circle to people who love Christ and appreciate the message of the Book of Mormon. So, that’s what we’re trying to do. We’re trying to enlarge and enrich the field. There’s a lot of great people out there that need to become recipients of the blessings vouchsafed within this book, and the Latter-Day message.

GT 1:40:00 Well, I think you’re an amazing missionary. By the way, do you go by Elder or just Patrick?

Patrick 1:40:50 Just call me Patrick. I don’t need any titles. Just don’t call me too late for dinner.

GT 1:40:57 Are you related to David O. McKay? We’ve got to ask that question.

Patrick 1:41:00 Does it help?

GT 1:41:01 I don’t know.

Patrick 1:41:02 If it helps, I’m definitely related. If not, I’ve never heard of him.

GT 1:41:05 (Chuckling)

Patrick 1:41:05 And let me tell you one little quick story. A week ago, at the John Whitmer Society historical event in Independence, my brother, Jim, went down to the LDS Visitors Center, and thought maybe he would see one of the professors that we knew that might come in there. And he met an individual whose name was Kyle McKay. And he’s a Seventy in your Church, and he’s just been installed as the new Church historian.

GT 1:41:31 Oh, yes, I just met him, too.

Patrick 1:41:32 And so the other day, we were in Salt Lake City. We went to the Church Historian’s office and said, “We’d like to meet the historian of the church Kyle McKay.”

Patrick 1:41:42 They said, “Well, who are you?”

Patrick 1:41:43 We said, “Well, we’re his namesakes? We’re Patrick and Jim McKay.”

Patrick 1:41:48 And she got right on the phone. She talked to his secretary and said he was in meetings all day but would get back with us and text us later, and we have a meeting with him on Wednesday.

GT 1:41:59 Oh, you’re kidding me.

Patrick 1:42:01 We’re going to deal with the lion in his den and we’re going to talk to the historian of the church. I think that’s a great opportunity.

GT 1:42:08 See, I’ve already emailed him, and he hasn’t gotten back with me. Maybe I need to make a phone call.

Patrick 1:42:12 Tell him your middle name is McKay.

GT 1:42:14 (Chuckling) So, yeah, I had two Church historians ago, Elder Steven Snow on, and I told Kyle, “I need to get you on. But how do I go through all this red tape?”

GT 1:42:28 And he wasn’t totally sure. But he said, “Send me an email.” But I haven’t heard back from him. I’m impressed that you got through so quickly. So, maybe phone calls work better.

Patrick 1:42:36 Just good fortune, I don’t know. Probably because I knew you.

GT 1:42:39 (Chuckling) Well, he didn’t know me. I don’t know that that would help.

Patrick 1:42:43 Well, I met you two weeks ago in Independence and seen you on your podcast. It was terrific meeting you. You were so friendly and engaged. And we had a nice conversation. Really, this is a joy for me to have a chance to sit down and spend an hour with you.

GT 1:43:00 Yeah, I want you to know that I enjoy meeting all of my–and I call you guys cousins, all my Restoration cousins. There’s so many. It’s one of the big things I’ve been trying to do is meet as many groups as I can. I gave a presentation back in May. There’s a Community of Christ group that meets on Monday nights over zoom. And I gave a presentation of about 20 of the different groups. And I think I’ve met with almost all of them. And so, there’s only 500 more to go, I think but…

Patrick 1:43:38 I think there’s about 70 groups that exist today that are large enough to have a congregation, that are viable today.

GT 1:43:47 I think that probably is low. Steve Shields is the expert on that.

Patrick 1:43:52 Yeah, and he’s just got an update on his book doesn’t he?[2] I need to get a copy of that.

GT 1:43:55 He does and I need to [get the print version.] because it just came out print. It was only Kindle for a while. And I haven’t gotten my copies yet. But he’s got 500 in there. He calls them expressions.

Patrick 1:44:06 Are they all…

GT 1:44:08 He includes defunct ones.

Patrick 1:44:10 I’m talking about the ones that are viable today. I don’t know. Maybe there are more than that.

GT 1:44:14 I don’t know. It seems like, especially, well, you don’t pay attention to the fundamentalists like I do, but they’re popping up all over the place. There’s lots of Denver Snuffers’ there.

Patrick 1:44:25 That is true, I haven’t included those, but they would be under that banner, of course. True.

GT 1:44:29 Yeah. And so, we’re, we’re constantly splitting. We need to do more gathering. I love what you’re doing. I think this is great. And I hope the LDS Church and all of the Restoration branches can continue to work together. I think it’s a good thing. And maybe we can overcome some of our differences. I don’t know. It’s going to be hard.

Patrick 1:44:54 Maybe we need to see a marriage counselor. Since we’re not polygamous, we believe Christ only has one wife, his bride, the Church, we’ve got to fix this crisis in our family so that we can be wedded to our Savior, right?

GT 1:45:11 Definitely. Great. Well, Patrick McKay, I really appreciate you being here on Gospel Tangents and we’d love to have you back on again sometime.

Patrick 1:45:21 Okay. Thank you, Rick, and appreciate it very much. God bless.

Additional Resources:

Check out our other interviews on Restoration Churches.

Mormon Schisms Tour

Early Groups: Strangites, Cutlerites, Bickertonites, Wightities

New Groups: Denver Snuffer, David Ferriman, Matthew Gill,

Mormon Apocalypticism

Dr. Christopher Blythe is a Research Associate at the Maxwell Institute and author of “Terrible Revolution.”

466: White Horse Prophecy

465: Chad Daybell & Zombie Apocalypse

464: Bo, Rowe & Pontius: LDS Apocalypticists

Matthew Gill – Prophet of Restored Branch of Jesus Christ

Matthew Gill is Prophet of Restored Branch of Jesus Christ in the U.K.

672: Ordained by Joseph Smith

671: Anti-Polygamy Stance, Book of Rayneck

670: Sued by LDS Church/Restored Branch Scriptures

669: Pre-Jewish Christian Religious Practices

668: Jaredites & Book of Jeraneck

667: Leaving LDS Church, Translating Plates

666: Brass Plates of Stonehenge

Internet Mormon Prophets David & Kristine Ferriman

Kristine & David Ferriman are co-presidents of Church of Jesus Christ in Christian Fellowship.

643: Internet Temple Worship

642: David’s Angelic Ordination

641: CJCCF Wide Open Canon & Revelations

640: Spiritual PTSD/Offending Everyone

The House of Aaron

Dr. John Conrad is chief high priest for House of Aaron.

618: Worship Services & Church Structure

617: House of Aaron Scriptures

616: House of Aaron Views on Polygamy & LGBT

615: LDS/House of Aaron Relations

614: Founding the House of Aaron

Melvin Johnson on Life of John Pierce Hawley

Historian Mel Johnson discusses Mormon pioneer John Pierce Hawley, who joined several Mormon groups.

282: Hawley Leaves LDS for RLDS Church

278: Mormon Pioneers in Texas & End of Wightites

277: More on the Zodiac Temple in Texas

276: Lyman Wight & Mormon Colonies in Texas

275: Intro to Hawley

Astrophysicist on First Vision, Golden Plates

Dr. John Pratt discusses dating the First Vision, & seeing the Golden Plates.

594: Intro to Reborn LDS Church

593: 3 Churches of Mormonism

592: What’s in Sealed Book of Mormon?

591: Hofmann Question of Brazil Plates

590: Brazil Golden Plates

589: John Pratt’s Spiritual Journey

588: Dating Problems with First Vision

587: Dating First Vision

586: Dating Christ’s Birth

Denver Snuffer & Remnant Movement

Denver Snuffer is founder of the Remnant Movement.

443: Why Remnant is Attractive

442: Remnant Movement is not a Church!

441: Ascension of Brigham Young

440: Why Denver Changed on Joseph’s Polygamy

439: Denver’s Outreach to Hebrews/Native Americans

438: Is Trinity in Lectures on Faith/Book of Mormon?

437: New Scriptures in Remnant Movement

Bill Shepard on the “Other Mormons”

Historian Bill Shepard is former president of John Whitmer Historical Association and a Strangite.

402: 7th Day Sabbath Mormons & Other Teachings

401: Strangite Teachings about Jesus

400: Martyrdom of James Strang

399: Strang’s Prophetic Role as Translator

398: Strang’s Mormon Missions

397: “The Other Mormons”-Intro to James Strang

Lindsay Hansen Park: Post-Manifesto Polygamy

Lindsay Hansen Park is host of Year of Polygamy podcast and Exec. Dir. of Sunstone.

396: How Polygamy Shapes Modern Mormons

395: How LDS Attitudes Empowered Warren Jeffs

394: Rulon Jeffs LDS & FLDS History

393: 2nd Manifesto Polygamy 1904-1925

392: 20th Century Polygamy/Reed Smoot Hearings

391: Mormon Fundamentalist Theology

390: John Taylor’s 1886 Revelation

389: “More Than One Way to Mormon”

Adam-God Theory/Christ’s Church

Benjamin Shaffer (left) is a Seventy in Christ’s Church. David Patrick (right) is an Apostle for Christ’s Church, based in southern Utah. They discuss the Adam-God Theory.

388: Why Adam-God is Controversial

387: “Families are Forever” a Hurtful Doctrine?

386: Why Polygamists are Threatening to LDS Church

385: God in a Box or Pyramid?

384: Documentary Hypothesis & Adam-God

383: Intro to Adam-God Theory

382: Scriptures of Christ’s Church

381: Intro to Christ’s Church

R. Jean Addams on Church of Christ (Temple Lot)

Jean Addams is one of the foremost experts on Church of Christ (Temple Lot)

380: Church of Christ Worship Services

379: 3 Church Reconciliation?

378: Comparing LDS & Church of Christ Theology

377: LDS/Church of Christ Alliance

376: Jones Flournoy’s Ties to Restoration

375: Dispute Over the Temple Lot

374: Intro to Church of Christ (Temple Lot)

Steven Shields on Divergent Paths

Steven Shields has been writing about various Mormon Groups since the 1970s.

241: Murderous Mormon Mayhem

240: Para-Church Mormon Groups

239: Cutlerite Endowment, Female Priesthood, & House of Aaron

238: Fundamentalists and Cutlerites

227: Conspiracy Theories: William Smith, Samuel Smith, James Strang

226: Sidney’s Unsung Role in Restoration

225: Steve’s Shields Own Divergent Path

224: Who Owns the Temple Lot?

Daniel Stone – The Forgotten Prophet

Dr. Daniel Stone wrote the First Biography of William Bickerton, prophet of the 3rd largest Mormon movement.

206: Modern Mormon Pentecostals

205: My Cousin Vinny: Alice Cooper’s Mormon Roots

204: Writing History Without Getting in Trouble

203: Reuniting the Bickerton Break

202: Ousting a Prophet

201: False Prophecies Are Possible!

200: Civil War Prophecy Leads to Black Ordination

199: Biblical Support to Ordain Women

198: Bickerton Becomes Prophet

197: Sidney’s Church Falls Apart

196: Rigdon/Spalding Manuscript Theory

MacKay & Hamer – Community of Christ Perspective

John Hamer was ordained to the First Quorum of Seventy in October 2017. Lachlan MacKay is an apostle for the Community of Christ

120: Start of RLDS Church & Mormon Schisms Tour

119: Surprising Word of Wisdom Insights from an Apostle

118: Mormon Followers of the Prophet James Strang

117: Alice Cooper’s Roots in Lively Mormon Schisms

116: Different Succession Claims: Other Mormon Groups

115: Strange Kirtland Temple Ownership Problems

114: Comparing LDS & RLDS Temple Worship

113: A Seventy & Apostle discuss myths & Kirtland Temple

Anne Wilde on Modern Polygamy

Anne Wilde, founder of Principle Voices, modern-day Polygamy expert

099: Polygamy & 2002 Olympics

098: Law of Sarah/Concubines

097: Was Jesus a Polygamist?

096: Ervil Lebaron: Polygamist, Assassin

095: FLDS-Centennial Park Rivalry

092: How to Polygamists Feel about Gay Marriage?

091: 3rd Manifesto Causes Schism: Apostolic United Brethren

090: Did Woodruff Marry After the 1890 Manifesto?

089: Taylor’s 1886 Polygamy Uncanonized Revelation

Interview with Remnant LDS Church

Jim Vun Cannon served as Counselor in the First Presidency of the Remnant Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints until 2019. Following the death of Pres Larsen in 2019, Jim left and is now president of the Everlasting Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Days.

067: What are Remnant Church Views on Temple Worship?

066: Women Will Not Hold Priesthood!

065: Joseph was a Monogamist!

064: What’s the Order of Enoch? Consecration in Modern World

063: Jim Tackles DNA & Book of Mormon

062: 18 Revelations to Gather to Missouri! Remnant Church Scriptures

061: What’s the RLDS Perspective on Succession Crisis?

060: From Convert to First Presidency in 5 years!

059: Found! A Literal Descendant of Aaron!

[1] John 11:50

[2] Divergent Paths of the Restoration 5^th edition is now available in print as well as Kindle. Volume 1 can be purchased at https://amzn.to/3TQNF0N and Vol 2 is available at https://amzn.to/3NyykQp. Kindle version can be purchased at https://amzn.to/3FYoSkZ.

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