Posted on

Women Have Priesthood Since 1843! (Part 8)

In 1992, Dr. Michael Quinn published an essay stating that women have priesthood, and have held the priesthood since 1843.  It was one of the reasons church leaders cited in excommunicating him.  This will be an interesting contrast to our conversation with Dr. Jonathan Stapley, who did not endorse the idea that women held priesthood.  Both Stapley agree that women don’t hold priesthood office, but Quinn is bolder in his claims than Stapley.

Michael: Women receive priesthood when it’s conferred on them in the endowment, and I think that men do too, but they’ve already received it. They’ve received it separately as young men as 12-year-olds to prepare them for the endowment. Women don’t need that kind of preparation. They are already spiritually endowed.

GT: At least that is the stereotypical thinking.

Michael: That’s the stereotypical view. And I’m willing to adopt that because it’s convenient to help people understand this issue that women have a preparation that is separate for the endowment than men do.

From my conversation with Stapley,

Jonathan:  there’s no question that men and women have equal access to the power of God. So, women are recognized healers, for example.  They participate in the healing liturgy. Women perform anointings, and they seal anointings and they heal the sick and bless for comfort from the earliest days. Joseph Smith says this is of course, entirely appropriate activity for the Relief Society sisters to participate in, any women. Every church president after that says it’s fine.  So this is a manifestation of God’s power. I would say that women receive liturgical authority to perform those acts, but Joseph Smith never characterizes that as priesthood.

Who do you think is right?

I asked Quinn what he thought about the Ordain Women movement.

GT:  Ok, so what do you think about Kate Kelly’s movement with Ordain Women?

Michael: I understand it. I don’t support it.

GT: You don’t support it?

Michael: No, I understand it and I don’t think it’s necessary for women to be ordained to an appendage.

GT: Why not?

Michael: Women don’t need an appendage to have the priesthood.

GT: They’ve already got the priesthood.

Michael: They’ve got the priesthood.

GT: But what about the idea, why couldn’t a woman become a bishop? Lead a congregation?

Michael: If those who preside over the appendages of these offices, which is what the president of the church does, he’s the president of the high priesthood. He could change that.

This was a fantastic conversation, and I hope you check it out!

Dr. Michael Quinn says women hold priesthood through the temple endowment.
Dr. Michael Quinn says women hold priesthood through the temple endowment.  Women have priesthood since 1843!

Don’t miss our other conversations with Dr. Quinn….

188: Translation by Joseph Smith & James Strang (Quinn)

187: LDS Succession Crisis (Quinn)

186: Quinn on Hofmann (Quinn)

185: “The Church Makes No Distinction Between God & Mammon” (Quinn)

184: Would LDS Church Income Ever Support a Paid Ministry? (Quinn)

183: Are LDS Church Revenues really $50 Billion/Year? (Quinn)

182: Michael Quinn Discusses Deseret Hemp Company (Quinn)

If you would like a transcript of this interview,

  1. Please become a monthly subscriber for just $10/month!  Just click the yellow subscribe button at Gospel  Tangents website, and I will send you a PDF of the interview (and future interviews.)
  2. For a paperback go to our Amazon Page:  https://amzn.to/2OTVCAv
Posted on

LDS Succession Crisis (Part 6)

Dr. Michael Quinn is one of the foremost experts on the LDS Succession Crisis.  He says there were seven legitimate succession claims following the death of Joseph Smith.  In a previous interview, John Hamer said Sidney Rigdon was the best option according to canon law.  I’ll ask Quinn that question, and we’ll talk about some of the other candidates.

Michael:  I would disagree with John Hamer that Sidney Rigdon was the most likely. He was the first publicly proposed alternative to the Quorum of the Twelve and he was voted down by the congregation that met in August of 1844. When their choice was only Sidney Rigdon or the Quorum of the Twelve, they chose the Quorum of the Twelve to continue in the Twelve’s position in its place of having all this prior role administratively within Nauvoo, the headquarters of the church. And they rejected Sidney Rigdon. But the fact that he was the first publicly proposed doesn’t mean that either one of them was the most likely. That was the choice that the Quorum of the Twelve and Sidney Rigdon had advertised. And this had been advertised before the Twelve was even back in Nauvoo. Most of the apostles, members of the Quorum of the Twelve were in the eastern states, and there were only one or two members in Nauvoo and two of them were wounded in and the attack on Carthage Jail.

We’ll talk about several of the possibilities during the succession crisis.  Check out our conversation, and don’t forget our previous episodes with Michael!

186: Quinn on Hofmann (Quinn)

185: “The Church Makes No Distinction Between God & Mammon” (Quinn)

184: Would LDS Church Income Ever Support a Paid Ministry?(Quinn)

183: Are LDS Church Revenues really $50 Billion/Year? (Quinn)

182: Michael Quinn Discusses Deseret Hemp Company (Quinn)

John Hamer lists several people with claims of succession. Dr. Michael Quinn weighs in.
John Hamer lists several people with claims of succession. Dr. Michael Quinn weighs in.
Posted on

Bringhurst on Bushman-Brodie

Who has written the best biography of Joseph Smith?  The two most prominent authors are Fawn Brodie and Richard Bushman.  Dr. Newell Bringhurst weighs in on the Bushman-Brodie issue and talks strengths and weaknesses of both approaches.

Newell: Well, I tell people if they really want to know Joseph Smith, I recommend those two in tandem for this reason.  Number one is that Brodie really was a path-breaking study in trying to attribute reasons or motives to Joseph Smith and his practice of polygamy.  It was controversial because she starts it out by her major premise is Joseph Smith was a conscious fraud.  When you make that statement at the beginning of the book, that’s immediately going to send up red flags all over the place, but when you get into the book itself, she actually is quite empathetic to a lot of Joseph Smith’s behavior and actions.

She was able, I think, to create a more human figure.  In previous biographies, they have either pictured him as a scoundrel, anti-Mormon books that had been written by Smith, or in the case of books written by faithful Latter-day Saints by Joseph Smith, had been made almost as a hagiographic, almost a demigod.  I think even though she didn’t believe that he was really a prophet of God, she tried to give you a sense of the whole man.

The sources she used, the critics that had problems with Brodie, not only had she started with the premise that Joseph is a conscious fraud but she uses a lot of/a disproportionate number of anti-Mormon sources, so that does make it a little bit of a skewed as far as she doesn’t give Joseph Smith enough credit as the religious leader that he was or that he purported to be.  That was one of my major criticisms that I saw from the book when I read it.

But when you compare Bushman’s arguments with Brodie’s, his is based a lot more on contemporary documents.  He had access to a lot more materials and documents that Brodie didn’t have access to, so his is a much more thoroughly researched and documented history, but I don’t think it is as engagingly written.

Fawn Brodie was trained in English literature and received her degree in English so she brought that expertise and is able to write in a very engaging way.  To me it’s a much more readable biography, but Bushman’s is more carefully documented and gives you all sides of the argument.  He’s arguing also from the vantage point of a faithful practicing Latter-day Saint.  He believes what he said he was a prophet of God and pretty much goes along with the divine origin and various doctrines and practices.  It’s far from being a hagiography because Bushman does acknowledge his faults and his shortcomings and the mistakes that he made and so on, so it’s good in that regard.

Don’t forget to check our previous episodes about Newell’s perspectives on race and the LDS Church.  Check out our conversation…..