Surprising Kirtland History (2017 interview with Mark Staker)

This is a re-release of our interview from 2017 with Dr. Mark Staker. We’re going to talk about Kirtland history. While I knew there was an early convert named Black Pete who likely held the priesthood, I was surprised to learn that Black Pete may have introduced speaking in tongues and polygamy to the Church! We’ll discuss the Fanny Alger incident, and Mark’s unique belief that Peter, James, & John restored the sealing power before Elijah did in 1836. We’ll also cover some interesting, and lesser known factors about the Kirtland Banking failure. Check out our conversation…

Gospel Tangents

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Kirtland History: First Black Mormon was Black Pete!

Interview

GT 01:58 All right, welcome to Gospel Tangents Podcast. I’m Rick Bennett. I’m here with Dr. Mark Staker of the Church History Library. I appreciate you taking some time to talk to us today here.

Mark 02:09 Well, thank you for including me.

GT 02:10 All right. I believe you have a Ph.D. in anthropology. Is that correct?

Mark 02:16 It is. I got a Ph.D. in cultural anthropology from the University of Florida.

GT 02:21 University of Florida. So Go Gators.

Mark 02:23 Yes.

GT 02:25 You were happy with Urban Meyer, the former Ute and now and then Florida Gator [head football coach.]

Mark 02:31 Yes. He’s done well, for them.

GT 02:35 Well, great. So, I want to talk a little bit about your book, The Ohio Revelations. You probably know the name of it better than I am saying it.

Mark 02:46 “Hearken, O Ye People: The Historical Setting of Joseph Smith’s Ohio Revelations.”

GT 02:51 Okay. It’s a great book. I started it. I didn’t finish it. But one of the things, especially with February being Black History Month, that I was personally really surprised at was, as you started out the book, you started talking about a former slave by the name of Black Pete. So, I thought that’d be a great, great place to start here, especially with Black History Month. So, can you tell us a little bit about Black Pete? What do we know about his earliest life?

Mark 03:18 Yes. The reason I selected Black Pete to start out with was because he’s been ignored as an early member of the Church. And I thought it’d be a good way to build some of those early events around his life since he played a major role, actually, in some of the early events in Kirtland, and has not been covered before. And so, I focused on his childhood. Black Pete was born a slave in Virginia, but there is a northern section of Virginia, that it becomes part of Pennsylvania as boundaries are adjusted. And so, he ends up in Fallowfield, Pennsylvania as a young child. The reason we know about his mother and his birth is because as they became part of Pennsylvania, they needed to register because Pennsylvania had already established a law manumitting the slaves there over a period of time. And he was just too old by four years to receive manumission as a slave. So, he was bound to be a slave his whole life, but it was registered with a mother. Keno was her name.

Mark 04:38 Her name suggests that she had come from West Africa in what was called at that time, the Slave Coast. She was probably of Muslim background. She had raised him in this white community there in northern Pennsylvania as a child where he would have grown up working metal for his owners. There was a blacksmith in the area that he’d worked in, and he would have become a skilled slave. Being born just too late to receive manumission from slavery was, of course a tragedy for him. But it ended up working out that he got his freedom a year after the other slaves in Pennsylvania did, because his slave owner, John Kerr, Jr. left in his will, that he was to be freed 10 years after his owner’s death. Fortunately, his owner died when he wasn’t \ too old. It then allowed Black Pete over a period of time, by 1792, to be freed from slavery. And he then was taken into a relative family of his owners. They were Quakers. Quakers were opposed to slavery, but they weren’t opposed to taking advantage of blacks. And in this case, that appears to be what happened. They continued to have him work for them. And essentially, he was a slave for the family, even though he had been free. We don’t know the details about how that worked out. But it’s clear from the historical record that as he moved to Pennsylvania with the family, and their setting changed, he suddenly changed his attitude. And he became difficult for them to control and to make work for them. In the terms of the family, he became ugly.

GT 06:56 So now, are you talking about the Kerr family? Or is this another family?

Mark 06:59 Well, this is the Kerr family that had married into–the Carroll family was that Quaker family that I had mentioned that took control of Black Pete and then they brought him out to Ohio, and settled in Kirtland, Ohio. Hercules Carroll, one of the members of that family had property in northern Kirtland, but I’m getting a little ahead of myself, because Black Pete’s there in Kirtland before he had gets control of that property and Black Pete then gains his–we won’t say gains his freedom. He had that. But he asserts his freedom from the family, and he’s able to then act on his own. He becomes involved in a religious community that’s developing there in northern Kirtland.

GT 07:50 Well, let me back up just one second there. So, you said he was born just four years too late. When was he born? Do you remember? Was it about 1775, or something like that?

Mark 08:01 It was. I don’t remember his birthdate exactly offhand.

GT 08:06 But I guess so Pennsylvania had a law for emancipating all slaves that were born [after a certain year.]

Mark 08:13 Pennsylvania had a law that would manumit all slaves in 1791. But the law became into effect when it was first issued, which would have been in the 1770s about the time that the Revolutionary War. It didn’t include those born before that law was established.

GT 08:42 Okay. I think in your book, you weren’t sure on his last name. I think you might have said Carroll. I’ve heard it was Kerr.

Mark 08:51 Well, often slaves were forced to accept their owner’s names as their own name. And it is important. Why did we call him Black Pete? That sounds a little condescending today. And his owner, John Kerr, Jr. Called him John as well; John or Jack, it says in the [records.]

GT 09:17 So Pete goes by Jack or John as well.

Mark 09:19 John is probably his formal name. Slaves were always given diminutive forms of the name. So, it’s never Peter. It’s Pete. It’s never John. It’s Jack. But John was his name. Jack is what he was called. And then records suggest, or as he is sometimes known as Pete. So, Pete appears to be the name that he or his mother selected for him. And when he was registered as a child with his mother, she registered him as Peter. And so that seems to be the name she preferred. He was only five years old at the time and so it’s probably a name that had come from his mother. Peter would be the formal form. But Peter was the customary usage. Now, did he take the black upon himself? Or did other people call him Black Pete? We don’t know. But it seems to have been a name that he was comfortable with and used and people knew him by. So, he became known as Black Pete. He didn’t use a last name, maybe because he didn’t really accept the last names of his owners. [Maybe he] preferred to not have a last name. We don’t know. Sometimes slaves did that. They used different names than their owners and they asserted some independence that way. So, this is Black Pete, who comes to Ohio and becomes active in that region.

GT 10:59 Okay, so he was a slave with John Kerr, or Peter Kerr?

Mark 11:07 The Kerr family.

GT 11:08 The Kerr family. So, then Mr. Kerr dies. He associates with some Quakers for a while. Things don’t go well with them. And so, then what happens?

Mark 11:20 Yeah, so John Kerr dies. Mary Kerr then controls him, and he moves into the Carroll family. I don’t know how that arrangement had happened. And he comes out to Ohio with the Carroll family. And he then is active in the area. He becomes part of what we know of as the Morley family. He becomes part of this Reformed Baptist community in northern Kirtland Township, Ohio, where they want to restore original Christianity. And what that means to them is they want to create the organization that existed in what they call the primitive Church. You’ll have a bishop. You’ll have elders, and you’ll have deacons, and that you will organize yourself in the ways that the original Christian community had organized itself.

Mark 11:38 And what that meant for them as they looked at Acts chapter two in the New Testament was that they had all things in common. They would share their goods with each other, and that the Holy Spirit was involved in their lives, which they had to work out what that actually meant. And it came to mean speaking in tongues and being influenced in physical ways by the Spirit.

Mark 13:00 Well, as they were working this out in their religious community, Black Pete, who’d become part of that community, was looked at as chief among them, as one source indicates, or that he became a prophet among them. And it looks like he drew on his own slave background and the slave religion that had developed in America more hidden underground. And so, it had drawn elements from West Africa, the elements from the Christian community that they were part of. This amalgamation of different cultural and spiritual and religious beliefs had developed into a slave religious tradition that Black Pete apparently was exposed to, and he drew on that in his involvement with this Morley family.

Mark 13:58 Now, in what ways? We don’t know other than that what outsiders saw and commented on. And they’re interpreting all of this from their Anglo white, Western American perspective. And so, we weren’t able to sort out all of the details, but there are some hints and these hints really come out later on as he becomes part of Mormonism. How that develops is that as part of this Morley family, Black Pete lives with the Whitney’s for a while Newell K. and Ann Whitney, who has a home in Kirtland village. He lives on the farm for a while. Apparently, he moves around with different people.

Mark 14:54 Four missionaries come into Kirtland with copies of the Book of Mormon. They meet on the Isaac Morley farm and preach the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. And they talk about the Church of Christ that has been organized April 6 of 1830, in Fayette, New York. This Church of Christ that we know today is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It has authority to preach the gospel and to baptize. And also, there’s the Book of Mormon that has been translated from an ancient record and they read to these people.

Mark 15:35 Well, they don’t have a lot of copies of the Book of Mormon with them. And they’re taking most of those to Missouri. It looks like just a few copies are left behind in Kirtland. Black Pete becomes part of this community. And they don’t know a lot, as you can imagine. They’ve only had a few days interaction with the missionaries. There are a few people that have copies of the Book of Mormon. They don’t know a lot about what this Church of Christ is to be. What are their doctrines? Or what are their practices?

Mark 16:08 Largely, they just continue as reformed Baptists, the Disciples of Christ as they call themselves. And they continue the same organization and the same practices that they had before. But they also turn to the Book of Mormon, for information. They turn to Black Pete, who’s a revelator among them. But he also seems to be the closest thing to a Native American as they can find.

Mark 16:38 Now, how do you get from Africa to a Native American? Because it’s the other. He’s culturally different. He looks different. And he has a different cultural background. So, when you’re trying to figure out, how do we live this Restored Church of Christ? Well, we look to Native Americans, because they’re the Lamanites. And what do Native Americans do?

Mark 17:03 I’m getting a little ahead of myself. Because this develops over a several month period. These Mormon missionaries baptize most of the members of the Morley family. Black Pete participates in all this. He’s preaching and helping with baptisms later on. So, we have to assume that he’s baptized and that he’s ordained a priest as well, along with the rest of these individuals, the men that are converted in this community because nobody actually says those things about him. But he’s clearly part of this community. And he’s part of what’s going on.

GT 17:52 So, I just want to stop there for a second. So, we don’t have a priesthood ordination certificate or anything, but it seems likely that he probably did hold the priesthood.

Mark 18:00 We don’t have a smoking gun that says Black Pete was ordained to the priesthood and became a priest.

GT 18:08 Does anyone refer to him as an elder or deacon or anything like that?

Mark 18:12 No, he’s a prophet among them. He’s chief among them. So, he has some kind of a leadership role. But there’s no actual ordination certificate that says he was ordained.

GT 18:24 So that’s interesting that he’s a chief among them. I guess that’s kind of an Indian chief kind of thing.

Mark 18:29 Well, yeah, it could be looked at that way. I’ve understood it generally as being in principle that he has a lot of authority and influence among them. But it could be also keying off on that Indian idea, because indeed, they do look to him for influence on how you behave as an Indian. And so, they are running around the hills, doing these pantomime scalping things because they know stories about that. [They know the] bloody and gory things, but they’re also jumping up on tree stumps. And this is a new area. So, there are tree stumps everywhere. They are jumping up on tree stumps and preaching to the people out in the dark. They’re rolling down hills, because the spirit has influenced them.

Black Pete Introduces Speaking in Tongues

Interview

Mark 19:20 And over time, they seem to be incorporating some new things as well, such as speaking in tongues. What kind of tongues are they speaking in? Indian tongues. They’re speaking Indian. Now, we don’t have any recordings of these early discussions as to what Indian might sound like to them. But there are people in their community that had been out west living among Native American communities including Newell K. Whitney, the store leader who had had been a trader out in Michigan with Native Americans there. They insisted, “Oh yeah, these are Indian languages.” So, there were there was that focus. Later on, that shifts a bit to talking about Adamic languages. They’re speaking Adamic. But in this early period, it’s Indian that they’re focused on because of that Book of Mormon connection.

GT 20:19 Now, I’ve heard in this early time period that there were Methodists, I believe, that did a lot of speaking in tongues. Is that true? Or was that more of a Baptist thing?

Mark 20:30 I looked and looked through the source material to find early accounts of speaking in tongues before this happens, even among the Shakers. Because it’s a Shaker practice as well, the speaking tongues. I couldn’t find anything before Black Pete’s introduction in this Mormon community. Now, Shakers pick up on it. And within a couple of years in a nearby community, they are practicing speaking in tongues, and they talk about it being a new thing. They hadn’t been doing that before.

GT 21:03 So is this something that you think that Black Pete may have introduced to the Mormons in Kirtland is speaking in tongues?

Mark 21:03 I believe he did.

GT 21:03 Oh, wow.

Mark 21:03 It’s a circumstantial case. There’s nobody that says that. But as you look at the evidence as to where it comes from, and these early attempts to practice it “speaking Indian,” that it seems to have come from him. It’s abolished and put out of the community. Then it comes back a couple years later, and we’ll get back to that in a bit. Because it’s really interesting how that happens. But they do other things, Book of Mormon things. They pantomime going down the river in canoes. Basically, it’s what little information do we know about Indians? And what does Black Pete suggest to us about religion and kind of combining that together? That’s what they’re doing. It’s just for a short period, a couple of months. But it really has a dramatic impact on them as a community and also on the surrounding community, because they come to think of this, “This is what Mormons are like.”

GT 22:15 So is this based on the idea of the Book of Mormon with the Lamanites are Native Americans, and so they’re trying to tie current Native American practices to the Book of Mormon?

Mark 22:24 Yeah. Yeah, exactly. The Book of Mormon is about these Indians, anciently. And so, we’re interested in whatever they’re doing today must be what the Book of Mormon people did earlier. And, of course, it’s largely a fantasy in terms of what they’re doing today, things such as scalping and stuff. It’s more of the popular mind that ends up in their behavior. But it’s not direct observation. And it’s not good information they’ve incorporated. But it does influence outside perceptions of them.

Mark 23:05 One intriguing, tantalizing detail, because people commented on it from outside the community, and that is, they talk about them practicing free love. And what does that mean? Well, what they know about Indians is they are polygynous. Men in Indian communities have more than one wife. So, it appears that also there are a number of sources you have to weave together to that suggests that something like that is going on as well within this community. They’re practicing this and that later revelation specifically addressed this issue at hand in their community. And so that’s also something that Black Pete may have been influenced on. There are several individuals that later suggest that he’s involved in all this. They’re outsiders suggesting it in a negative context. But it’s understandable because the slave community that his mother came from, and that most of his associates came from practiced polygamy of some sort in their traditional cultures they brought with them from West Africa. And so, there are some intriguing questions there. We don’t really have good answers to most of those questions at this point. I have to continue to look through the data and see if there’s more information that might help shed light on that. But Black Pete’s part of this community. He’s part of this religious enthusiasm that develops between the time the missionaries arrived in Kirtland on November 2 of 1830 and early January of 1831 when the first individuals from New York start arriving with John Whitmer in December.

GT 25:09 John Whitmer was one of the missionaries?

Mark 25:11 John Whitmer. Peter Whitmer is one of the first four missionaries that stopped briefly and then head on West. But John Whitmer is sent by Joseph Smith to Kirtland to provide leadership to this community. So, he’s the first one that comes, that actually has experience as a longtime member, maybe six months member of the Church. He has some copies of the Book of Mormon; he brings with him. So, now they’re actually getting good information. He also has a Manuscript of the Book of Moses, that we have today is part of the Pearl of Great Price. He has most of, if not all of that with him as well. So he has some scriptures. He has instructions, and he can provide some leadership, albeit very inexperienced leadership himself. But from that point, the community begins to shift a little bit. And they pull away from religious enthusiasm: speaking in tongues, being overpowered by the Spirit, rolling around on the floor, and other kinds of behaviors that they’re doing. But they don’t shift away enough from that. When Joseph Smith arrives, February 4 of 1831, it’s still very much a part of elements of the community. And then that’s when Joseph begins to receive revelations immediately on that subject, that acknowledged that the gifts of the Spirit are important but provides direction on that.

GT 27:06 Let me ask you about one of the things that you wrote in your book, because I wanted to know when this came. So, one of the things you mentioned in your book was the fact that Black Pete had a letter from heaven from a Black Angel. Could you talk about that?

Mark 27:21 Those activities are important, because they suggest some things about his involvement with African religious tradition as well. And that is, that part of this religious enthusiasm that was going on is that they were receiving letters from angels. But these letters provided them authority as well. Oliver Cowdery, when he first comes to Ohio, says that he has seen an angel and that they have authority. We understand that today to mean that he talks about John the Baptist having come and given authority to baptize. And that this receiving letters from Heaven is a play-off of that. They’re also receiving authority and direction to do things. And so, they fall on that. These letters appear to be ethereal. They’re not tangible. They’re not things that other people see. But only the person that receives it (it comes down,) they’re able to see that and read that letter.

Mark 28:36 Black Pete seems to put kites up in the sky. He’s flying things that have faces of various kinds. And it seems that this is part of the African tradition that his mother brought with her West African religious tradition. And there are African potters, who will put faces on pots. So, they have introduced that into the American pottery tradition. It appears that Black Pete’s keying in on some of that as well, and these letters coming down from heaven and this idea of flying. Some people say, “Oh, he claims he can fly.” That’s part of that slave religious tradition where some people can fly at night. They leave their bodies to do it typically, but it appears that he believes that something that he can do as well because of his previous religious background as a child, or before he gets to Ohio. So those are elements that also come into the story as he moves forward.

Mark 29:54 Now, Joseph Smith when he arrives in Kirtland and begins to receive revelation, it dismantles this ecstatic religious tradition that has been introduced and the religious enthusiasm that’s going on, to an extent. It stops. There are no more speaking in tongues, no more rolling around. It takes a little bit of time to do that. And they’re still, even after Joseph arrives, they hold a special priesthood meeting up in schoolhouse on the Morley farm and some of those events continue to happen. But not long after that they disappear from the community.

Mark 30:39 It turns out that a couple of those early converts head off on a mission to the east. [They] baptize Brigham Young. Brigham Young is introduced to speaking in tongues in Pennsylvania. These missionaries are serving in Pennsylvania, but they move up north and they introduce it in Pennsylvania as well. It’s Brigham Young that brings that tradition back to Kirtland. It’s died out and when he comes there, he speaks in tongues in a meeting at the Johnson Inn, at the local tavern there at the crossroads on the upper floor of the tavern. And they hold this church meeting. And here he’s speaking in tongues. And Joseph Smith declares it to be of God. And that introduces it back into the community and it spreads.

GT 31:33 So how long was it out of favor there in Kirtland approximately?

Mark 31:37 Approximately a year.

GT 31:38 Okay.

Mark 31:38 Almost a year they weren’t practicing it. So, it’s still very much in people’s memory. There may be some people still practicing it. I may be overstating the case by saying it had died out. But there’s no evidence that it’s continuing until Brigham Young brings it back into the community. And there’s suggestion by some that it came about the same time, that he introduces it to the community because they’re not aware of this earlier practice. So that supports the idea that it has died out. People aren’t aware of until he introduces it back into the community. And so, speaking in tongues comes back into the community, but Black Pete doesn’t seem to be taking as central a role anymore in what’s going on. Is it because Joseph Smith arrives? He’s the Prophet and he’s the leader. So, they don’t look to Black Pete as a prophet, or is it because there’s some negative backlash from this earlier experience of the ecstatic religious tradition that he introduces into the community? I don’t know.

Black Pete’s Mormon Mission in 1831

Interview

GT 32:54 Let me tie into that again. So, he joins the Church, if I recall, is about November of 1830. So, it’s less than six months after [the Church was organized.] Then, as I recall, in your book, didn’t he go on a mission or something? And there’s something in [Ashtabula]? I don’t even know where Ashtabula is. Is that close by?

Mark 33:13 Ashtabula is good days journey for them. It’s east of where they’re at. He and three other individuals. They all call themselves on missions. Well, now, let me step back. Everybody that joins the Church, everybody meaning in this case the men, that join the Church are expected to go out and preach the gospel. They are ordaining them elders. John Murdock when he’s baptized, he’s immediately ordained an elder, and he goes out, never having read the Book of Mormon; having no idea what the Church is really all about. Other than that, he knows what Oliver Cowdery has told them about authority and about Angel Moroni and things coming. So presumably, he’s sharing that information with people.

Mark 34:08 There’s some discussion of Christ appearing in America. So, they’re telling some of the stories from the Book of Mormon, but he’s going out and he baptized within a week 70 individuals.

GT 34:24 This is John Murdock?

Mark 34:25 John Murdock, so others are out. They are preaching. They’re baptizing quite a few people. Black Pete is one of these individuals that goes out and is preaching as well. He joins three other individuals, and they all go, this group of four that are very interested in religious enthusiasm. So that might be what ties them together. But what this also suggests is, since those that we know about were ordained elders, such as John Murdock, but it could be the Black Pete had been ordained an elder as well to go out and he’s assigned to preach just like these others are supposed to go out and preach. But he clearly is doing that.

GT 35:13 So do we have any record of that he baptized anyone? I actually had somebody ask me, is it likely that if he did baptize that they were white people or black people? Do you know that?

Mark 35:25 A great question. And I don’t know their race, but this group of four are baptizing people. So presumably, he is one of those baptizing individuals.

GT 35:37 So he went out with John Murdock. And do you know who the other two people were?

Mark 35:41 Burr Riggs is the one that he’s most closely associated with. And then a couple of other individuals that did go out with them. John Murdock is out on his own, at least as far as I can tell; he doesn’t have a companion while he’s preaching. And they don’t really get that instruction to go out two by two until a few months later.

GT 36:04 Okay, so it sounds like we’ve got better documentation for John Murdock than we do for Black Pete.

Mark 36:08 Well, John Murdock’s journal survives, his missionary journal.

GT 36:11 Oh.

Mark 36:13 So where he’s going, who he’s preaching to, how many individuals he’s baptizing, he records that in his journal. If Black Pete kept a journal, it doesn’t survive. Some of his associates said he was illiterate, which seems to make some sense, because it was illegal for slaves to learn to read. And so, he probably didn’t learn to read when he was younger. But then again, he’s receiving these letters from heaven. But if they’re spiritual letters, maybe he doesn’t need to actually know how to read to read these letters either. So those are questions we can’t answer from the sources.

GT 36:54 But at any rate, he ended up in the newspaper. Is that right?

Mark 37:02 A bunch of newspapers mentioned him, because he’s colorful. He’s different. And if you want to write negative things about the Mormons, he becomes a lightning rod to do that. And so, because of that, he ends up casting a little bit of a negative light on Mormonism. He claims he can fly. Hahaha. “Look at what these Mormons believe.” He ends up running off of a cliff and falling down into the trees. “Look at these silly things Mormons are doing.” He was chasing after one of these letters when that happens. He wasn’t paying attention to what was in front of him. He’s doing the other things that seem to be a little bit odd or strange. “Look with these Mormons believe.” He becomes the lightning rod of negative focus. And the fact that he’s black also, adds to the negativity, because most of the people in the Western Reserve, they’re in northeastern Ohio, don’t look kindly toward blacks, most of the white settlers. There aren’t that many free blacks in the community at the time.

Mark 38:22 So it all just adds to that negative patina. And that’s why he’s selected as the person that they mentioned most often in the record. And that’s how we’re able to learn things about him. But it also adds to the likelihood that when Joseph Smith comes, and when they established the Church more formally there in Kirtland that he’s going to be pushed more into the background, because he’s become this negative focus.

Mark 38:58 And so sadly, over a very short period of time, he disappears on the record. We don’t know what happens to him. Where did he go? Did he stay there? It doesn’t seem [he stayed.] There are no black persons in the census records and other local records that seems to fit him after this period of time. I can’t figure out where he’s gone to. It would be great to be able to follow him through and figure out the later parts of his life and how Mormonism continues or doesn’t continue to influence him or how he continues to find meaning in the rest of his life. But he disappears from the record.

GT 39:49 Okay, one other story I just want to highlight really quickly is, you mentioned that he had a romantic relationship with Frederick Williams and daughter, if I recall. Can you talk about that?

Mark 40:06 Well, I think it was less romantic than it was a hopeful romance on his part. All the women that he’s associated with are white, because he appears to be the only black person as far as we know that’s part of this community. And he’s interested in marriage. He claims to have received a revelation to marry one of the Williams daughters. She says, “When I receive a revelation well and good.” But she didn’t feel that she had received the revelation to do the same. It’s the same story that many sorry young men have suggested over their lives as they receive revelation that a young woman doesn’t receive in terms of marriage. But she didn’t receive the same revelation. She turned down his marriage proposal. He later wants Joseph Smith to receive revelation on his behalf to marry somebody. As far as we know, that never happened. And he doesn’t get married within the community. And we don’t know where he went from there. So, that’s just one of those stories that is told. But it also fits within the larger free love story that was often told by outsiders. Hence perhaps there was some discussion of polygamy at the time. But it’s hard to sort out really how that all happened.

GT 41:52 Now wasn’t there a big age difference as well between [Black Pete and the William’s daughter]?

Mark 41:56 Yeah, he would have been twice the age of the young lady that he was hoping to marry.

GT 42:04 So that probably didn’t sit too well with very many people, besides the fact of his race.

Mark 42:09 Yeah, yeah. I’m sure that that probably was a factor as well. But yeah, we don’t know because we don’t have any responses how that all played out.

GT 42:17 I spoke with Paul Reeve recently. And he talked about amalgamation/mixed race marriage was an awful thing, both in the South and in the North. Ohio would be considered the North, obviously. Was there any talk about that in the early Kirtland period?

Mark 42:38 No, he’s correct. It would be national news. And it did happen occasionally. It ended up in the national papers that some white person married a black person. But Emma’s aunt had done exactly that.

Mark 42:53 Emma’s Smith’s Aunt [inaudible] Hale had married a Joseph Wallace a black man.

GT 42:53 Emma Smith?

GT 42:59 Oh, I did not know that!

Mark 43:00 Nobody did. They kept it quiet. By law, they had to announce it in the newspaper, the marriage. But they didn’t mention race, of course, in that official announcement. It was very difficult to sort that out. He comes from the Wallace family. [They] were revolutionary war heroes. They were part of the black freedom fighters that had fought in that war. He appears to be a successful, comfortable individual in the community. She elected to marry him. It caused a stir in their religious denomination. And then we can’t find out any earlier. I haven’t been able to find out any more about what happened after that, or where they go. And they kind of disappeared from the records.

GT 43:01 So Emma didn’t talk about it. So, it sounds like she didn’t really approve of that.

Mark 43:57 I don’t know if she approved or didn’t approve. Yeah, those are things [we can’t answer.]

GT 44:03 I know talking with Paul, the one of the big knocks against Mormons was the fact that they were so open. I know that they married Indians. It sounds like they were a lot more open to even mixed-race marriages.

Mark 44:16 It could well have been. It could well have been early on open to those kinds of things. I don’t know.

GT 44:26 That’s interesting. I wish we knew a little bit more about what happened after Kirtland with him, but these are these are fascinating insights.

Kirtland Era Polygamy

Interview

GT 44:34 So let’s talk a little bit more about the Kirtland area. What are some of the important revelations that happened in Kirtland as Joseph Smith came?

Mark 44:46 When Joseph Smith came to Kirtland, he understood that the Lord would reveal His law to the people. He’s going to come to his temple. He’s going to reveal his law. They are to gather to the Ohio. How all that’s going to unfold, where these things are going to happen is not entirely clear. The temple is going to be in Missouri, they learn very early on. And there’s no talk even about Kirtland Temple at the beginning. But the first thing that they do is get together 12 elders and receive the law of the Lord. And the law of the Lord essentially restates most of the 10 Commandments, and the importance of living those commandments and focuses particularly on marriage, purity and chastity and so on, which is followed up with another revelation that suggests to me that it’s a response to what Black Pete has introduced in terms of polygamy at the time.

GT 46:06 So, wait a minute. You’re telling me that Black Pete may have been responsible for introducing polygamy into the Kirtland community?

Mark 46:14 I believe so. And I believe that’s why often we say, well, Joseph Smith was translating the Bible. And he wants to know about Abraham and his wives and Isaac and Jacob, and plural wives. And so, he asked that. Everybody knew about Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, but nobody else is really asking. Well, a few people are asking those kinds of questions. Some are. But I believe that there were specific issues at hand that led Joseph Smith to ask those kinds of questions about marriage, and Abraham and Isaac, and so on. And I believe that Black Pete introduced that idea to him. Now, is there really a step-by-step process that we can document as to how that happened? No. It’s a circumstantial case.

GT 47:10 Wow, wow, this is this is great. We’re learning all sorts of stuff here. So Dr. Lawrence Foster from Georgia Tech has mentioned that he believes that clear back in 1831; so I’m thinking this is probably the Kirtland timeframe, that there was some revelation, which I don’t believe has been published. I would really like to learn more about it. Joseph Smith may have had a revelation to do polygamous marriages among Indians. Are you familiar with that?

Mark 47:48 Yes. It looks like from the best information we’ve got, when he arrives in Kirtland by that fall, he’s received revelations on plural marriage, alright.

GT 48:02 In 1831?

Mark 48:03 In 1831. And what he dictates later in Nauvoo, is a portion of that, or re-working of that, or a different understanding of that, that’s expanded and more refined. But clearly, many individuals [such as] Brigham Young, Joseph F. Smith, Orson Pratt, all indicate that in 1831, Joseph receives his revelation on polygamy. I believe it’s in response to what’s going on in this Morley family beforehand, and that Joseph needs to clarify that and understand that. And so it begins with the law, right then in February of 1831. But then by that fall, Joseph’s receiving more information, and how he comes to understand that Native Americans will be part of that. It could be since the Morley family is trying to live Native American practices, and they would say Native Americans practice plural marriage. To me, it’s a very natural context for him to come to understand that, however that happened.

Mark 49:19 By the time they go to Missouri, W.W. Phelps suggests that they’re talking about the redemption of the Lamanites. Joseph Smith suggests to Martin Harris that he could marry one of these Indians and help bring her into the community. Martin Harris suggests he is already married, or W.W. Phelps suggests. I forget which of the two and Joseph suggests that polygamy may be a way that they can do that.

GT 49:57 So how does that tie in with the Book of Mormon? Because I believe, and I might have the time wrong, but I believe about 1829-1830, the Book of Mormon was published. In Jacob, it says you’re not supposed to do polygamy. How do we reconcile that?

Mark 50:12 How do we reconcile that, or how did they?

GT 50:14 Both.

Mark 50:17 Probably in a similar way in that Jacob suggests that you’re not to practice this unless “I will build up a righteous people unto me.” Otherwise, you are to live these things. And so, it’s a commandment that has specific exceptions; if “I want to build righteous people to me,” for a period of time, “I can command this.” Otherwise, the standard, the common is to practice monogamy. That’s the Lord’s [law.] And that’s what Jacob in the Book of Mormon suggests, as this is what you’re to do, unless you’re in this specific instance. There’s an exception, and then he allows for the exception. And I suspect that exception was something that they discussed as early members of the Church. But I don’t know if they may have focused on that if they just read over that. I don’t know.

GT 51:22 So as I understand it, and I wish I could remember what section it was in the Doctrine and Covenants, but I believe it was in the Kirtland period, where Joseph Smith says, “Hey, no more polygamy.” Monogamy is the law. I mean, can you talk about the circumstances of that? And am I getting it right?

Mark 51:43 Well, in Kirtland, in the Elders Journal, Joseph defends the Church from accusations of polygamy. Some scholars have suggested, well, nobody’s making accusations of polygamy. Why is he defending the Church against that? It’s because of his own revelations and he’s trying to respond to that. I think that his defense against accusations of polygamy suggests that there were accusations leveled out there because of Black Pete and because of the Morley family experience. So that’s what the Elder’s Journal is responding to in Kirtland by saying, “Well, these things happened earlier. But that’s not part of us. We don’t support polygamy.”

GT 52:42 So the Elder’s Journal, [what] is that?

Mark 52:44 The Elder’s Journal is a newspaper.

GT 52:46 Okay.

Mark 52:46 They’re publishing it in Kirtland, Ohio.

GT 52:49 Okay. By the LDS Church.

Mark 52:51 By the Church.

GT 52:51 The Church of Christ, I guess they were known back then.

Mark 52:54 By the Church of the Latter Day Saints by that time.

GT 52:56 Yeah. Because they had several iterations of name changes, as I recall.

Mark 53:00 They did. Yes.

GT 53:02 It was originally the Church of Christ and then the Church of Latter Day Saints.

Mark 53:05 Then then The Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

GT 53:08 And then what’s the timeframe for all those name changes? Do you know?

Mark 53:13 Boy it’d be hard for me to give you really accurate dates on that, because I haven’t focused on it with any specificity, but it’s in the 1834-1836 time period that they shift from that one to the other as Joseph receives revelations on how the Church should be called.

GT 53:33 And then do you know which section of the Doctrine and Covenants it is, and approximately when it was? They said, as I recall, it says something to the effect “that inasmuch as this church has been charged with a crime of polygamy” or something along those lines. Do you know what I’m talking about?

Mark 53:34 Yeah, it was the Declaration on Marriage. It was included in the Doctrine and Covenants initially and then removed later on. Yeah, Oliver Cowdery was involved in putting that in. There’s some dispute/some disagreement among historians as to how whether Joseph played a role in that or whether he didn’t. But Oliver Cowdery took the leadership of that in terms of inserting this declaration into the Doctrine & Covenants that marriage is important. It could actually be brought back in and included today because it fits with the way we understand marriage today is a Latter-day Saints between the husband and wife and so on.

GT 54:45 Could you see that being re-canonized?

Mark 54:47 Yes. I definitely could see it being brought back in and put back into the [scriptures.]

GT 54:53 And so, Oliver Cowdery was more of an inspiration for that section than Joseph?

Mark 54:58 Well, some have suggested that. Brigham Young believed that it was all Oliver Cowdrey’s doing. Did he know all the details? Some scholars have disputed that. Some have accepted his declaration. I tend to believe that Brigham Young did know enough about those details that he was right that Oliver Cowdery had played the principal, if not the sole role, in getting that material included.

GT 55:29 Wow, that’s very interesting. Well, great.

Kirtland Temple University?

Interview

GT 55:34 So let’s go back. What are some of the other important revelations in the Doctrine and Covenants that we have from this Kirtland time period?

Mark 55:44 Joseph Smith receives revelations in batches during specific periods of time. When he was in Harmony, Pennsylvania working on the Book of Mormon, he received quite a few revelations. Then when he gets to Kirtland, Ohio, he receives a significant number of revelations. What I find intriguing is that, once he leaves Kirtland, the number of revelations Joseph receives, drops significantly. The later sections of the Doctrine and Covenants are minutes from meetings or extracts from journals from people or things that Joseph taught. Even section 132, which Joseph dictated in Nauvoo, most, if not almost all of it, is drawing on his Kirtland revelatory experiences rather than anything that he might have received later on.

Mark 56:39 I think it suggests some things about Kirtland being this catalyst to the revelatory experiences for Joseph. Most of those revelations address questions that they had at the time. The majority of them are received in response to, I was going to say the temple that they’re constructing. But initially, they don’t quite understand it as a temple. Joseph Smith meets regularly with a number of priesthood holders, in what they call the School of the Prophets. The School of the Prophets uses language from New England and from that period of past. It’s a training ground for ministers or for individuals who are particularly interested in becoming more righteous, more in tune with the Bible, or aligning their lives more with living the Bible rather than saying, a training ground for people who actually want to be prophets as we might understand that.

Mark 57:57 This School of the Prophets meets regularly in the Newell K. Whitney Store in the upper floor, N.K. Whitney’s Store. As they discuss having another space to meet, they’re talking about it as a school. They’re going to build a schoolhouse. And they talk about building this school of logs and Lucy Mack Smith shares that story in her biography of Joseph Smith coming in and saying, “Are we going to build a house to our Lord of logs? The Lord has a better plan for us,” something more grand. He reveals information about building what we now call the temple. Well, it was still a schoolhouse. It just wasn’t to be a log schoolhouse. It was to be something grander. A schoolhouse, by then you have to understand that when missionaries were going out and preaching, they often met in schoolhouses to preach. That was a gathering place for Latter-day Saints, and they were holding meetings at that very time down in the red schoolhouse in the Kirtland flats. The congregation was meeting for the Kirtland saints. And so, schools were a place for congregational worship, as well.

Mark 59:23 As this schoolhouse that they’re going to build in Kirtland, as understanding of it develops, they’re calling it the house of the Lord. But primarily its purpose is to be a school. Now, as they are going to build this school, this House to the Lord, they plan on it being a specific size, having a specific look based on revelation. Joseph Smith, Sidney Rigdon and Frederick G. Williams have a Revelation where they see this building come over them as they’re lying down on the ground and look up into the sky. And what they see looks remarkably like the temple that they have planned for Missouri. There are sketches of the temple to be built in Missouri that survive. [There are] not any sketches for a temple or another structure in Kirtland. But those sketches for the temple in Independence, Missouri, look very similar to the Kirtland Temple that we eventually get.

Mark 1:00:39 What they do is they build this according to Revelation. The dimensions are provided by revelation and the large details of the building are provided by revelation. Those revelations were in the in the Doctrine & Covenants. But also, a lot of the other revelations being received about that same period of time, are addressing the temple. We don’t understand that today, because we think, “Oh, this is about priesthood.” Section 88 of the Doctrine and Covenants, for example.

GT 1:01:17 We know that as the Oath and Covenant of the priesthood. Right?

Mark 1:01:19 Yes. We know that it’s all about priesthood. And when it was published, its title was “On priesthood.” It did address priesthood, but why priesthood? Why suddenly? All this information that’s coming out about how the priesthood is traced back and they have provided names the Aaronic Priesthood and the Melchizedek Priesthood. Before that it was the lesser priesthood, and the greater priesthood. And now we have these names for these authorities. And Joseph Smith receives revelations on quorums, and that you have to have presidents of these quorums and how this is all to be organized. He’s ordained as the president of the high priesthood. This is all unfolding at the same time that they’re moving forward on this building to be built in Kirtland.

Mark 1:02:14 Lo and behold, the structure of the internal areas of that building all decry priesthood. I shouldn’t say decry. They support. They cry out priesthood. They declare priesthood. You have priesthood pulpits to declare this priesthood authority from the presidency of the Deacons quorum, and the presidency of the Teachers quorum, the presidency of the Priests quorum all on the east side of the temple.

Mark 1:02:52 Then on the west side, you have Presidency of the Elders quorum and the presidency of the Melchizedek priesthood. And then you have the presidency of the high priesthood in the Church, which is a little bit different than the Melchizedek priesthood at the time. But those are all priesthood authorities that are visually incorporated into this building. And the benches in there are movable, so you can move to face one side or the other as each of these priesthoods speak. They’re essentially given equal focus. You can turn one way, or you can turn the other and that this is all priesthood authority.

Mark 1:03:38 At the same time, Joseph Smith then starts talking about priesthood restoration. And that’s when we first get those earliest accounts of John the Baptist coming and restoring the Aaronic priesthood. And then early mentions of other authority. Now, Oliver Cowdery, when he first arrived, had talked about authority, and authority from an angel, as early as November of 1830. We don’t have the details of that because that wasn’t shared. But these are recorded accounts and so important that they’re publishing it in the paper and giving more detailed information on it than they had earlier. So, where it might have been an incidental part of the narrative before, now it’s becoming the focus of the narrative. Priesthood is important.

Mark 1:04:28 Then the House of the Lord also becomes more than just a schoolhouse. It is the schoolhouse. The School of the Elders meets there, instead of what they were calling the School of the Prophets before. The name is changing a little bit, but they’re also holding other kinds of meetings such as, to study Hebrew. They have the Hebrew school, and they hire a teacher to come in and teach them Hebrew. They are studying grammar. And they’re studying, composition and writing. And they’re studying these other things. And it becomes so influential that the local community starts meeting down in the schoolhouse on the flats, and they organize an adult education program where they’re trying to do some of the same things there. It ends up failing after just a couple of days. They’re not able to do it. But this is before adult education becomes widely practiced in America. This is some of those earliest efforts to do that. And it’s all part of this Kirtland schoolhouse/Kirtland House of the Lord experience. And it’s not until after the building is dedicated, then Jesus Christ appears there. And where he had promised earlier, “Behold, suddenly I come to my temple.” Well, now he’s doing that in a building. And Moses, and Elias and Elijah appear in this building. They bring keys. Joseph already held the priesthood authority. They’re not bringing authority.

Mark 1:06:12 He had all the authority he needed with Peter, James, and John. But they’re bringing these keys that allow him then to use that authority in these more specific ways. That all happens in this building. So, what is this building? It is more than just the House of the Lord. It’s more than a schoolhouse. It’s a temple. And it gets that name after that time. They began to call it a temple. Today, we think of it as the Kirtland Temple. But it was a growing process to get to that point. And it wasn’t until the Savior appeared there, that people came to really understand that in that context.

GT 1:06:54 Wow. Because I guess that’s one of the interesting things to me. You brought up so many questions that I wanted to ask. Because the Kirtland Temple was a lot more open than our modern temples are. It was more of a gathering place. You mentioned it was a school. There’s that scripture in the Doctrine & Covenants that says, the temple should be a house of learning, a house of faith. This literally was a house of learning. They taught grammar. And so, it’s interesting to me, because our concept of temples has changed so much since those early days of Kirtland. It’s interesting to me to hear you say that this was more of an evolution. It wasn’t like, “Oh, let’s build a temple. And this is what [we’ll do.]” Baptism for the dead wasn’t even there.

Mark 1:07:37 Yep, they’re learning out of the best books. They’re learning. It is a house of learning. Temples still are that today, but in a much more refined sort of way. They understood it more as that all learning took place in this building. And that was one of the primary emphases of that building was the most at learning that took place in there.

Elijah’s Visit & Sealing Keys

Interview

GT 1:08:05 So you mentioned Elijah coming. I believe that was 1836, just a few months after the temple was dedicated. I was talking with Dr. Bennett at BYU. And I mentioned that that revelation wasn’t known for about 40 years after that. Why do you think that one was kept quiet for so long?

Mark 1:08:29 Well, Joseph did mention it orally. And I mentioned in my book, a couple of people later remembering. Maryann Stearns remembers her mother taking her up to the pulpit in Kirtland and saying, “This is where Joseph said this happened.” So, he did. But people didn’t rush out to write all this stuff down. They weren’t as good at writing down everything as maybe happens today. And Joseph dictated right after it happened, he dictated the whole account to his scribe, who wrote it down carefully in his journal. It was there, but it wasn’t published until after Joseph’s death, long after his death. When the Latter-day Saints got out to Utah, they published that first in the Deseret News, newspaper. Then eventually it was drawn into the Doctrine and Covenants. But during Joseph’s life, he didn’t share it in detail.

Mark 1:09:32 I have my theories as to why that’s the case. But they’re just speculation on my part. But my feeling is that when Peter, James, and John appeared to Joseph Smith, and restored the Melchizedek priesthood, that it was to be a confidential event. They taught him things and gave him instruction that he was to share with no one. And it was only to be shared within a certain sacred context. And when Joseph Smith is building the Nauvoo Temple, he talks about when the temple is finished, “I will share with you” some of these details. But he talks about restoration of the priesthood. As the temple is being finished, he is there in front of the temple. He holds a meeting, and he reads a prepared sermon. Actually, he is sick, and his scribe has to read it for him. But he’s drawing on that Peter, James, and John experience, but doesn’t feel that he can share it all. I think that because Peter, James, and John, and what happens in the Kirtland Temple, with Moses, and Elias and Elijah are also integrally tied together. I think that they all have temporal connections. But Joseph Smith doesn’t share that information at that time. He’s waiting until the Nauvoo Temple is built to share that. He’s not around when that’s finally dedicated. And so, it doesn’t happen. That’s all speculation on my part. I have no idea what the what the truth is on that.

GT 1:11:25 So, with that vision, I think Elder Bednar a few years ago talked about that was so important to the sealing power. That’s when we say that Joseph received the sealing power. Jumping back a little bit to polygamy, this is 1836 when Elijah came. Is that right? {Mark nods} I’m trying to go back to the controversial stuff in Kirtland. There’s the question about Fanny Alger, and whether she was sealed to Joseph as a polygamous wife. That would have occurred before this sealing. Is that right?

Mark 1:12:05 Before Elijah appeared.

GT 1:12:06 Right.

Mark 1:12:06 It occurred before Elijah appears. I believe that Joseph Smith receives from Peter, James, and John, all the authority that he needs, including the sealing power. He holds all those through Peter, James, and John. What Elijah brings is keys; keys to enact those sealing powers on behalf of other individuals. That doesn’t mean that Joseph can’t use those that same authority on his own behalf. He can’t seal himself to Fanny. Now, he has somebody else perform [the ceremony.] At least Moses Hancock suggests that Joseph has a member of the Hancock families marry him and Fanny. But we don’t know all the details of that, and how Joseph would have sealed himself to her or not. So, I can’t really say more than that, other than I don’t think that saying well, Joseph was sealed to her before he had the sealing power holds up. Because I think he received all that authority from Peter, James, and John long before. He just received the keys after. Now, does that mean he had he could enact a sealing beforehand? Well, apparently because he does. He does that with Fanny at least. Even former Mormons who leave the Church suggested Joseph was sealed to Fanny or that they had married each other. But what that all means? I don’t know.

GT 1:13:47 Okay, so let me make sure I understand what you’re saying. So, you’re saying that clear back in 1830 or so when Peter, James, and John came, that not only did they restore the Melchizedek priesthood, but they restored the sealing power to Joseph only?

Mark 1:14:01 Yeah, what Peter, James, and John bring are the keys of the apostleship. They restore all the priesthood authority that Joseph needs as an apostle of Jesus Christ, which is all the authority that we hold today. Now, that doesn’t mean [he has all keys.] We don’t have the keys of resurrection, for example, or if we do, they’re inactive. We can’t resurrect people from the dead because we don’t have those keys. But we do have the keys of the sealing authority, which allows us to use the priesthood in that context. But the priesthood already came earlier. So, Peter, James, and John brought that priesthood authority.

GT 1:14:49 Okay, and so then when Elijah came in 1836, you’re saying he restored the keys of the sealing [power], which allowed Joseph to essentially seal others. Is that what you’re saying?

Mark 1:15:00 Yeah. It allowed Joseph to direct his authority on behalf of others, because the keys provide the ability to direct priesthood on behalf of people. But they aren’t the priesthood itself. Keys are not equivalent to priesthood. Joseph held the priesthood already.

GT 1:15:21 Okay. So, I believe Elder Bednar tied this back to baptism for the dead too. So how do you see those tying together with that visit by Elijah?

Mark 1:15:40 Well, Joseph–I don’t know. I really don’t. To be honest I haven’t really given that much thought. We talked about Elijah and sealing parents to children and so on. But baptism for the dead is not necessarily a sealing ordinance as much as it is a preliminary ordinance to that. It’s a temple ordinance that we perform today and in Salt Lake temples that were baptized on behalf of other people. But is that authority that Elijah brought? I’m sure other people are more qualified than I am to comment on that.

GT 1:16:22 We do talk about the spirit of Elijah as genealogy work and I know that’s the way that Elder Bednar in his talk, spoke about that.

Mark 1:16:31 We talked about it in those terms. Yes. So, maybe Elijah’s keys allow Joseph then to receive revelation and direct baptisms for the dead. Maybe that is something that Elias or somebody else [brought.] Moses brought the keys of gathering. What is gathering if not baptism? So, I don’t know, missionary work, I guess, keys to direct missionary work, but I am not a theologian. I am a historian. So, I can’t tell you on that.

Did the Kirtland Temple Sparkle?

GT 1:17:05 All right. Well, yeah. Okay. Well, great. So, these have been some fascinating insights. I just did want to mention one other thing. I spoke with Dr. Bennett about this. It seems like there’s a Mormon story about the early saints. As the saints built that Kirtland Temple, it almost bankrupted them. I guess it really did bankrupt them. But they talked about tearing up their China and using that in the plaster. I think I heard that wasn’t a true story. Do you know?

Mark 1:17:25 No, I heard that all my life growing up, as many people do, how the saints took their best China and broke it, and put it into the plaster. I couldn’t find any accounts where they had done that. But I did come across a couple of individuals who mentioned as children that they had gone around to the garbage dumps and picked up fragments for the temple plaster. And as I did archaeology out there, I worked under T. Mike Smith, who was our lead archaeologists on that project, and I was digging in the ashery pit. There was this 30-feet across probably about 15 feet deep pit of ash. And I went through bushels of ashes and found fragments of ceramics after fragments of ceramics that have been swept up in people’s fireplaces and brought there as they brought the ash and all this. I thought, “Why would they take their best China and break it up when they have all this stuff here just thrown out onto the ground?” As I went back to those adult accounts as children going around and gathering up the garbage to put it in the plaster I thought, this is how it was done. They went and got garbage just like these people are saying they did. They didn’t break up their best China which doesn’t make sense.

GT 1:17:41 Oh, so there’s a little bit of truth. It wasn’t their best China. It was their worst China or stuff that had already been broken.

Mark 1:19:21 It was the broken stuff. They got gathered up the garbage. And as I tried to then trace out well, how did that story then get started? I was able to push it clear back to 1910. An individual who was looking at the plaster and saw these fragments of a broken China and other things suggested, “Well, they must have taken and broken stuff up to put it in here.” It kind of grew from that. They broke up their China and then they broke up their best China and it’s this great sacrifice. They did sacrifice to build that temple. John Taylor talks about the incredible sacrifice that they made to where it could hardly hold. Even the strongest man could hardly bear the burden of trying to build that temple with everything that they had to put in to doing that in their great poverty.

Mark 1:20:21 It was a fabulous, fabulous building: polychrome tower, multicolor. We tend to think of it as an all-white structure today, because that’s how it’s ended up over the years. But it was everything that they could find beautiful, they bought sculpture to put in. They had paintings on the wall. They imported carpet, probably from Great Britain that they put on the floors. They imported the best window glass for the windows. And this building was a fabulous structure, but it took incredible sacrifice to do that, including the plaster even though they got garbage. They invented the plaster process.

Mark 1:21:09 The temple plaster was miraculous to the extent that they had to invent a whole new process to make it. Artemis Millet invented a way of taking the lime that was the base for the plaster. They would break up materials, largely broken window glass fragments and broken fragments of ceramics and things. They would chip into it and put into that [mixture] to get it to look like granite. They wanted a granite structure. So, the original temple looked like cut granite. They painted the lines. So, it looked like cut blocks. And then those little fragments in it made it look like polished stone. And it was a new process that they patented. Although Artemis Millet invented the process, Jacob Bump who was working on the temple as well, he went and got a patent out on it as a process. And so, this was a whole [process.] They had to get revelation, if you will, and they had to invent a new way to do that, in order to make it look like they have seen it in vision with those cut granite blocks.

GT 1:22:22 Okay, so did it shimmer, then in the sunlight with this?

Mark 1:22:27 It did? Yeah. The sun would shine on it. You get little sparkling from a distance. And it was quite a dramatic view from the distance.

GT 1:22:35 Wow, that must have been pretty cool to see.

Why Start the Kirtland Bank?

Interview

GT 1:22:38 Let’s talk about the Kirtland Bank. Give us all the background on it, and why we started it and all that.

Mark 1:22:44 The Kirtland Temple was expensive. They did everything they could to build this fabulous structure that was well beyond their means. But a lot of people donated to it. They had contributions that were continuing to come in. Even non-members donated to it because they wanted to contribute to it.

GT 1:23:04 Oh wow. I didn’t know non-members contributed. That’s cool.

Mark 1:23:06 So, by the time they finished the temple, it was already halfway paid for. Now getting the exact figures because we don’t have the ledgers, and exactly how much came in, and how much went out, we can only approximate based on things that were said or written down at the time or some later reminiscences. But it looks like they were in very good position. They may have owed $20,000 or less on this structure. But they were interested in paying it off. They wanted to get the debt out.

Mark 1:23:47 They were more interested in building Kirtland as a community. They wanted people to come in and while they’re paying it off, they’re going to continue to expand the community. They have a lot of property that they are then turning around to sell to people, dividing it up into smaller segments and selling it. Property all over the region has just gone through this phenomenal economic boom, in terms of prices are skyrocketing. People are buying a lot and then selling it for twice the price a few weeks later. Then that person a month or two later is selling it again for twice the price. Land is just going up quite a bit. There’s a lot of speculation throughout the country at this time and everybody is excited about this great economic boom.

Mark 1:24:45 They could have easily paid off the temple if they had just waited for a while. And they may have actually been able to pay it off almost immediately if they had just drawn on resources, but they’re looking to grow the community. So, it’s not just a temple debt that they’re trying to address as much as it is that they want to expand the community. They want to get in on all this growth that’s happening all over the country. And everybody’s getting excited.

Mark 1:25:16 They travel to Salem, Massachusetts, where they go to look for some treasure that’s supposedly buried in the basement of a home there. It turns out that it’s really bad information that they have, and that there’s not really a treasure buried in this basement by a ship’s captain, or somebody that’s gone and left it behind. But while they’re going out there, they go through New York. They visit Wall Street. They see these trains. They see all this industry going on. Oliver Cowdery is writing back these letters and suggesting that banking is something of interest. Exactly how that congeals in their minds what it is they plan on doing [is unclear.] Why? What is it that they see that leads them to this decision?

Mark 1:26:14 They come back with the idea that they need to have a bank in Kirtland. They need to be able to print their own money and to do their own things, and it will foster this growth. They’re getting some revelation along the way, but exactly what they’re being told in this revelation, we don’t know. Other than if they do what the Lord tells them, that everything will be fine. And Joseph Smith shares that. Wilford Woodruff writes that down in his journal that as long as they do what the Lord tells them to do, that they’ll be fine. This suggests that if they don’t, then there could be problems. I’m not sure they really considered the other side of the coin, and how important it is that they’re obedient to the revelations that they’re receiving. But very early on, they’re already receiving some money from people that’s going to go into the bank. And they’re already writing out some IOU’s that aren’t on printed bank notes. But they’re making a promise on things that they’re trying to do the finances for all this property, with the understanding that they’re going to have this bank institution.

Mark 1:27:46 Oliver Cowdery gets the printing plates, so they can print bank notes, and they begin doing that. Orson Hyde is assigned to go and get the bank charter from the state because the state has to issue that charter. So, they go to the state legislature to do that. Orson Hyde seems to drag his feet on this whole thing. Why? I don’t know. Does he think that it’s going to be so easy, he doesn’t need to lay the groundwork? Or does he think it’s so hard that it’s an impossibility, and it’s not really worth his effort? But initially, they don’t get that bank charter. Their elected representatives are anti-Mormons, and they are both connected with the Bank of Geauga, which is the largest bank right there in the area. So naturally, they’re not going to want to create a competitor to them. And this would be their competition, so that would hurt themselves financially. What politician ever votes on something that’s going to hurt him financially? A few. I’m sure there are some out there, but there are a few. So, they go through somebody else. It takes some time to get this other person to take their proposal through and work to get a bank charter.

GT 1:29:18 Let me ask you a question there. So why do you think these [people opposed the bank?] I mean, the competition makes a lot of sense. But why were they anti-Mormon in the first place?

Mark 1:29:30 Well, those questions are always really difficult to answer for any of us. There are clear economic factors at play. They’ve been hurt financially and so it can be economic interests. I tend to look at those as being motivators. I suspect that there are other things involved as well, but I can’t tell you.

GT 1:29:55 Because I know it seems like Joseph Smith was really [blaming them.] That was his big thing. “Oh, they’re anti-Mormons.” So, I was just wondering. Was it like Dr. Hurlburt, where his sister joined and he got mad, or whatever?

Mark 1:30:07 Well, yeah. They tended to do look at things as being anti-Mormon or pro-Mormon. You could break those down into motivating factors. I tend to look at the economic factors which are relevant in this case. There were economic competitions, that motivated these individuals so that there they had competing in financial interests. I’m sure other things have probably played a role as well.

Mark 1:30:46 But one of their close associates Grandison Newell led out in this opposition to the bank. He was on the board of directors of the Geauga Bank with them. But he also had business interests in Kirtland, that may have been influenced by them and the Latter-day Saints in various ways. Anyway, while this charter issue is trying to work its way through the legislature, they’re already going forward, because they have money. They’ve printed it. They’re pushing their institution forward. There are lots of institutions all over northeastern Ohio doing exactly the same thing. They aren’t unique, and they’re not even unusual. It is very typical. What they’re doing is just as common as can be. Every community is doing exactly the same thing, because they’re all trying to get in on this.

Mark 1:31:51 There are on some of these early banknotes, for one day they stamp “Anti-Banking Company.” Is there some concern that maybe they won’t get the charter? But I think it’s more that until the charter comes, they’re trying to make sure that they follow the law. I don’t think that there was ever really much of an interest in calling this the Anti-Banking Company. That’s often picked up by historians later on and made as a big deal. But at the time, I find no historical references to it as the Anti-Banking Company other than these bank notes. It’s the Kirtland Safety Society, or the Kirtland Bank. But the Kirtland Safety Society is what they’re calling the organization. And it’s using similar language as other safety societies out there. And what it suggests is, it’s a working man’s bank. It’s more a populist kind of an organization. And so that suggests that that’s their intention is for this to be a working man’s organization.

GT 1:33:01 So let’s talk about that word, anti-bank. In the Book of Mormon, it talks about the anti-Nephi-Lehi’s. In today’s language, we think they’re against they’re against banks. They’re against Nephi and Lehi. But that’s not really what the term meant back then. What did the term “anti” mean back then?

Mark 1:33:19 Well, in the context of the Book of Mormon, anti-Nephi-Lehi could mean “quasi.” So, it’s kind of a bank, that’s not quite really a bank. It’s not opposed to banks, as much as it’s kind of a bank that’s not yet a chartered institution. And so, did they mean that in this [sense?] I don’t know. I don’t know. They leave absolutely no historical record as to why that is attached to the bank.

GT 1:33:47 So is that what we would say? It’s a quasi-bank. If Joseph Smith we’re starting this today, he’d call it a quasi-bank, maybe?

Mark 1:33:56 Yeah, or a credit union? Maybe they would have called it the Kirtland Credit Union as a way of getting around that. Because in some ways, yeah, it performed as a bank, but was not a bank. And so that might have been their intention with that. It had banking elements. They had a board of directors. Most banks had, like three or four individuals that were their board of directors. The Kirtland Safety Society had seven who were the chairs, the Board of Directors. But then there were 20-30 people or more that were actually on the board of directors. This was a massive board. Going back again to that working man’s organization. It wasn’t a communal economic effort in that everybody in the town, at least on the director’s level. Everybody was part of the directors. But all of the leaders, there were men. There were women. There were members. There were non-members that were on this board of directors. It was a large community effort to participate in this Kirtland Bank.

Mark 1:35:13 Then they turn around and sell stock into the bank. Most banks in the whole country, banks are selling stock at like $100 a share. That’s a year’s salary for anybody. Now you can imagine, if you’re selling stock in your enterprise at $30,000 a share, $40,000 a share today that you’re not going to get very many investors and that they’re going to be very wealthy people. Well, what the Kirtland Safety Society does, is they’re selling stock at very small amounts. You can pay 12 and a half cents and buy an initial payment on a share of stock. And so people are for $25, which is a month’s salary there, you can invest comfortably into this organization. And there are lots of people, even poor people.

Mark 1:36:17 Nathan Staker, one of my ancestors, he’s poor. He’s a former Methodist class leader. He’s getting financial help from his brother-in-law because he can’t even support his family. But he buys us a share of stock. So, I see this as a different model than what’s going on in Missouri, where people are all consecrating all their property and getting back a portion. This is a different way of getting at that communal organization, building that city of Enoch by allowing everybody to become part of this financial institution that will then help earn money for everybody and help everybody to lift everybody up together. But also, it allows everybody to borrow money to build homes and to buy property. And so, this is a way of building up the community as a whole, allowing everybody to benefit and be part of it.

Why Kirtland Bank Failed

Interview

Mark 1:37:28 That’s how the Kirtland safety society starts out. Very quickly, however, they run into trouble. Still that chartering is not all resolved itself, and it leaves them in legal limbo, because a bank needs to have a charter. Although all these other institutions don’t, they want to operate as a bank rather than as the local credit union rather than as an issuing organization that issues promissory notes, which are all over the place.

Mark 1:38:05 While that charter is still out in limbo, one of those local opponents of theirs, Grandison Newell, wants to put the bank out of commission. And so, he goes up and buys up all of the banknotes he can buy. And he comes in, and he asks for specie, which is hard currency, gold and silver coins rather than the paper notes. And the bank has to trade for those. And so, all of its currency, it’s all of its specie that’s in the coffers of the bank in its vault, they’re trading out to Grandison Newell, and he’s trying to create a run on the bank.

Mark 1:38:49 And the way a run happens is if everybody that has banknotes comes in and wants to take out hard currency from the bank, eventually, it won’t have enough because there are more notes out than there is hard currency. It can’t cover for everybody. But as long as everybody has faith in the bank, it’ll continue to work properly. The thing about paper money is it always requires faith. If you don’t believe in it, it doesn’t work. If I don’t think that that dollar bill in my wallet is worth anything, and nobody else believes it’s worth anything, it’s not. It’s just paper. It’s only when everybody believes that it’s worth something that it becomes worth something.

Mark 1:39:44 So, as long as everybody believes the banknotes are worth something, they are. But as Grandison Newell continues to push forward to try to create this run on the bank, well, people began to work worry about it. Is it going to be successful? Is this going to fail as an institution? Well, one of the families that owned most of the bank stock was the Johnson family, led by their father John Johnson, Senior. But he had his sons, Luke and Lyman Johnson were both apostles. A son-in-law, Orson Hyde was an apostle and nephew by marriage. McLellin was an apostle.

GT 1:40:34 William McLellin, or another one?

Mark 1:40:37 Wasn’t it William McLellin? I had to think.

GT 1:40:39 Yes, that’s right.

Mark 1:40:40 Okay. He’s one of the first. Okay, yeah. So, William McLellin, Orson Hyde, Lyman Johnson, Luke Johnson are all either sons, sons-in-law or a nephew by marriage of John Johnson, Senior. So, he’s very much tied into this community. He has a lot of influence. He’s been given responsibility for the property to sell all that property that’s in Kirtland. He had sold his own farm and apparently consecrated all that property, the finances from his sale to the Church. In exchange, he received the responsibility to sell the property in Kirtland from the Peter French farm. Now, probably, but it’s not clear in the record, probably his money from his sale had gone to help buy that Peter French farm. But his money had gone. It might have gone to help with Kirtland camp. It might have gone to help with other things.

Mark 1:41:45 He had responsibility for the Peter French farm and to sell that property. John Johnson, Senior loses faith in this whole Kirtland Safety Society enterprise. Why? I don’t know. Was there a specific incident? Did Joseph Smith insult him? Did he see something that he didn’t trust in terms of a financial document? Whatever. Whatever it was, John Johnson Senior panics and he goes out and begins to immediately sell this property at giveaway prices. He’s giving it to his son’s, son-in-law, family members, also some of his friends, associates and others. He’s getting rid of this property. Because he wants to be able to get what he can out of it all.

Mark 1:42:53 That property would have supported the bank. If the bank had collapsed, the property would have been there in place as one of the resources for the bank. If Grandison Newell had gotten all the specie out, they could have sold that property and then continued to give him coin. But because John Johnson’s out divesting himself of all his property, one of the major sources of collateral for the bank is also disappearing, along with the other one, which is the gold and silver coin.

Mark 1:43:28 Because of that, the whole foundation on which the Kirtland Bank is built begins to crumble. There isn’t any more support behind those banknotes. And as that support dissolves, faith in the banknotes also begins to dissolve. And people began to all rush in, just as Grandison Newell had hoped. They began to demand payment on the bank notes. And as they do that the value of the notes drops to where they become virtually worthless. Nobody will accept them in trade. You can’t buy anything with them, and you’re left with very little to accomplish anything with.

Mark 1:44:23 This all happens over a couple of months period of time by June 9^th of 1837 Joseph Smith realizes that the bank just can’t continue to survive. By that time, John Johnson has pulled out. They are struggling. It’s still operating as an institution. But Joseph Smith publishes in the paper that he no longer supports the institution. He withdraws from it. Some of his associates still think that they can make it all work and they continue on, the principle one being a Warren Parrish. He Had been one of Joseph’s scribes. He’s also worked in the bank, signing Joseph’s notes for him, and trying to manage the day-to-day operations as the teller. As the bank teller, back then you are responsible for all of the ins and outs of the money coming into the institution. So, Warren Parrish, continues the institution.

Mark 1:45:32 And what he does, apparently, is he takes banknotes that have been redeemed, and he then begins to take those out and circulate them again even though people have come and gotten their money for those notes. Brigham Young is one of those who says that he’s redeemed his note. And he finds it out again in circulation. Bank notes that then weren’t like dollar bills today, where you take $1. And it’s worth the same for everybody. It’s like a promissory note with an IOU. And so, once it’s redeemed is redeemed and cancelled. More notes are issued. And so, if those notes are going out again, once they’ve been redeemed, that’s as though they’ve never been redeemed. You keep holding that debt plus new debt that’s out. And so, these notes are all going out into circulation into the community to where it’s building more and more debt because the bank has to now pay for more and more notes that are out there. And eventually, it collapses as an institution. And everybody that’s holding those bank notes, is holding worthless paper.

GT 1:46:54 So, let me make sure I understand. So, you said Brigham Young, he got a bank note saying he owed money to the bank, for $100, whatever it was. Then he paid off that $100, let’s say. Then they didn’t cancel the note. They just reissued it to someone else. Is that what you said?

Mark 1:47:13 When you go get a loan from that bank at that time period, you get a loan. You’d say to the Kirtland Safety Society, I want to borrow $200 so I can buy this land, plant my crops, and I will pay back, $100 this year and $100 next year plus 8% interest. So, I’ll pay you back $216 at the end. [I’ll pay] half of this year and half next year. In exchange, you give them then the bank notes and they’ve got to pay you back from those notes from other notes from hard currency over those two-year periods. They’ve got to pay back for those bank notes. Those bank notes, then are exchangeable. You can pass them out to people.

GT 1:48:04 The farmer has to pay back to the bank.

Mark 1:48:05 The farmer has to pay back to the bank, what he’s borrowed that $216.

GT 1:48:11 So he gets a banknote in return.

Mark 1:48:13 He gets to $200 in banknotes. Now he can go out and buy his seed, buy his land, or make his land payment if he can’t buy all the land. But he can then buy seed and hire some workers to help him to earn enough money to then meet his payment. So so that bank note then represents a loan from the bank that he’s got to pay back. And if somebody like Brigham Young then gets that note, and they go put it into the bank, because they’re investing in the bank. Brigham Young paints the house of the farmer. So, the farmer gives him $25. Out of that loan that he got. Brigham Young takes that Kirtland note, he takes it back to the bank, deposits it in and says, “This is my $25 for my account.” Then the bank has that money in. It’s been redeemed. That note now is gone. But the bank owes Brigham Young $25 of specie eventually, or could give him another bank note or whatever. But that note has been redeemed.

Mark 1:49:21 So that original farmer has used that in some transactions. Then it ends up back in the bank, which will then will be crossed out. But the debts that the farmer owes and the debt the Safety Society owes to Brigham Young, are both still on the books. That needs to be resolved with some kind of a bank note over time. It could be a Geauga County Bank Note that they pay with. It could be hard currency that the federal government’s printing. Governments are not printing any paper money at this time. They’re just doing the hard currency. Or it could be more safety society notes to kind of keep that loan floating, which they could do as well so that they don’t have to redeem it all over time. But as it all collapses, and everybody wants their money in and the people who got the debts aren’t going to go back and pay, then it all falls apart.

GT 1:50:22 Okay. All right. So that makes sense. You’ve described the economics very well, there. So, let me ask you this question. Grandison Newell, wasn’t he [the publisher of Book of Mormon]? Or maybe there’s somebody with a similar name that published the Book of Mormon? Or is that somebody with a similar name?

Mark 1:50:42 Published the Book of Mormon?

GT 1:50:43 Yeah, there’s a…

Mark 1:50:44 Oh, Egbert Grandin.

GT 1:50:46 Egbert Grandin. So, it’s a different name, but very similar name.

Mark 1:50:49 Yeah, similar. Grandison was the first name of Mr. Newell.

GT 1:50:54 Okay.

Mark 1:50:54 Grandin was the last name of Egbert.

GT 1:50:56 I was wondering if those were related, but I guess not.

Mark 1:50:58 They were not related or connected at all.

Why Joseph Took the Blame for Bank Failure

Interview

GT 1:51:00 Okay. So, it sounds like Grandison Newell, and John Johnson didn’t really take the blame on the bank failure. It was Joseph Smith. Is that right?

Mark 1:51:14 Well, Joseph Smith, as he withdraws from the bank back in June 9 of 1837, he says, “I’m not going to be involved in this anymore.” Whether it’s guilt or compassion for everybody else, or whatever, he begins to take on the debts of all these individuals who’ve been using money under [the bank.] People who have gotten loans to operate businesses and probably primarily the Church, he’s calling in all those debts and trying to settle the books. And so, if you look at Newell K. Whitney’s daybook from that time period, it becomes a Bank Ledger of itself. People owe Whitney money, and Joseph Smith is taking on their debts. And there are quite a few individuals.

Mark 1:52:15 There is, for example, piping for a steam engine pipe for the sawmill that the Church is using. They used to build the temple. Joseph Smith takes on the debts for that sawmill construction. I believe that the Church still owns that sawmill. So, it’s a Church debt, but that whoever had taken that on Joseph Smith is now taking that on himself. And he’s gathering all these other debts as well. So that he becomes responsible for that. I think that principally his interest is in settling those debts, making sure that it all gets settled. And he has specific individuals who are assigned to make sure all those payments are made and that everybody is paid off in this process.

Mark 1:53:04 But it also puts him up to be the fall guy when everything collapses. He’s the one that’s owing all of this. And so, I don’t know if he wants to protect everybody from all the subsequent lawsuits. There probably is that as a motivating factor, but I think that it’s also to make it easier for him to settle all of these debts that are incurred for Church activities, other, things that they’ve been doing as part of this process. And while he’s doing that, Grandison Newell is working out legal action against Joseph Smith, for operating this institution without a charter because banks needed a charter even though all these other organizations are operating without them. If you were to be a bank, you had to have a charter.

Mark 1:54:03 There was public sympathy for these institutions. Somebody else tried to do a similar thing and charge a community that had a banknote operation. They were trying to try them for operating without a bank charter. And the jury didn’t even leave the jury box to deliver a guilty verdict. They just they listened to all the evidence, and they said he’s not guilty because they considered that even though he’d done that, that that was just normal practice. That’s what everybody needed to do to make finances work because the federal government wasn’t issuing paper money. It was all private institutions that we’re doing that at that time.

Mark 1:54:50 Now, did that exonerate Joseph for operating the institution without a bank charter? Well, No, because he ended up being tried and convicted for that. But did Joseph have honorable intentions through the whole thing? Absolutely. He tried and made every effort to pay off all the debts that were incurred in this process. And even the very last night of his life, while he’s lying on the floor of Carthage Jail, he’s still dreaming about those Kirtland troubles. And he had been weeks before that sending letters out to people and warning people to not take Kirtland banknotes. They weren’t good anymore. It haunted him for a long time afterward.

Mark 1:55:42 But he was tried. He was convicted, Grandison Newell is the one that led the whole thing. And as the one promoting it, he got paid half of the fine. So he got paid $500 and the other $500 was supposed to go to the government. The judge that listened to all this and the prosecuting attorney, we’re both Grandison Newell’s business partners. And so, it was hard for them to come up with any other decision. They went in favor or Grandison Newell, but Newell later double dipped. He got paid the other half as well. So, he ended up getting twice as much money as he was legally owed for this whole affair. So, he came out, doing very well in the whole thing. So, he made a lot of money.

GT 1:56:37 What was Joseph convicted of then?

Mark 1:56:40 He was convicted of operating a bank without a charter.

GT 1:56:43 Okay.

Mark 1:56:46 Was it justified? I don’t think so. I think you can make a case that the conviction was not legally valid. But I’m not an attorney. And I’m not really in a position to judge that. So, I’m hoping that the attorneys will all get together and look at that carefully and decide among them whether he deserved the conviction or not. But it had happened.

GT 1:57:16 I’ll have to ask Richard Turley. Isn’t he an attorney?

Mark 1:57:19 He is. He can tell you.

GT 1:57:21 I want to talk to him, too. All right. Well, I really appreciate you taking the time to talk with us about this. I think this has been fascinating discussion. And I know I need to let you go. So once again, thank you for being here on Gospel Tangents. And we’ll talk to later.

Mark 1:57:42 You’re welcome.

Additional Resources:

Check out our other interviews with Mark Staker.

Mark Staker – Excavating Smith Family Farm in Vermont

Dr. Mark Staker is conducting archaeological dig of Smith Family Farm in Vermont.

537: Staker Weighs in on First Vision

536: Lucy’s Dreams, Joseph’s Rational Religion

535: Smith Farmers Were Spiritual, Not Religious

534: When Joseph Met Lucy

533: Smith Family Farm in Vermont

Polygamy with Brian Hales

Dr. Brian Hales, Author of Joseph Smith’s Polygamy

053: Did Hales Write the Gospel Topics Essays?

052: Emma Denied Joseph Practiced Polygamy?

051: Polygamy & the Temple Lot Case

050: Joseph’s Youngest Teen Brides

049: Mormon Polyandry: More Than One Husband?

048: What are the Theological Justifications of Polygamy?

047: Fanny Alger Part 2: Marriage or Adultery?

046: 1st Plural Wife Fanny Alger: Time or Eternity Polygamy?

045: Polygamy Rumors – Declaration on Marriage

044: Does D&C 132 Conflict with Genesis?

043: Canadian Polygamy – Should it be Legal?

Don Bradley on Lost 116 Pages

Don Bradley is Author of “Lost 116 Pages” where he details what is missing from the Book of Mormon.

355: Re-Writing Oliver’s Words: Dirty, Nasty, Filthy Scrape?

354: Dating Fanny Alger

MacKay & Hamer – Community of Christ Perspective

John Hamer was ordained to the First Quorum of Seventy in October 2017. Lachlan MacKay is an apostle for the Community of Christ

115: Strange Kirtland Temple Ownership Problems (MacKay & Hamer)

114: Comparing LDS & RLDS Temple Worship (MacKay & Hamer)

113: A Seventy & Apostle discuss myths & Kirtland Temple (MacKay & Hamer)

Debunking Joseph Smith’s Monogamy Claims

Mark Tensmeyer is an attorney and independent historian tackling polygamy skeptics’ claims.

625: Kirtland-era Polygamy Evidence

Engineering Joseph’s Visionary City

David Hall is an amazing inventor, businessman, and expert of Joseph’s city plans.

613: Corrected Church Organization

609: Building Future Cities of Joseph

608: Tyndale’s 1530 English

607: 24 Temple Presidents in Kirtland?

606: Engineering Joseph’s Visionary City

Bruce Van Orden: Remembering WW Phelps

Dr Bruce Van Orden is biographer of WW Phelps.

563: Cleaning House in Kirtland: Phelps vs Marsh

Cheryl Bruno on Mormon-Mason Connection

Cheryl Bruno is the author of “Method Infinite: Freemasonry and the Mormon Restoration” due out in 2020.

405: Mormon-Mason Similarities/Differences

404: Joseph Smith’s Masonic Connections

403: Masonry from King Solomon to Kirtland

Dr. Richard Bennett on Evolution of Temple Worship

BYU professor Dr. Richard E Bennett discusses the evolution of LDS Temple worship.

026: 1st International Temple was almost a Temple Ship!

025: Ouija boards, Spiritualism, and the Endowments for the Dead

024: Sealing to GA’s by Law of Adoption

023: Temple Worship: From Speaking in Tongues to Masonry

022: Selling Temples!!!!

021: Open Temples

017: Origins of Baptism for the Dead

015: Reclamation of Revelation

014: Did the Kirtland Temple Sparkle?

Final Thoughts

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