How did Catholic scholar Cristina Rosetti get interested in Mormon polygamists? Did she really attend an LDS Young Single Adult Ward? We’ll find out more about her background, as well as the TLC Church, and her feelings about Under the Banner of Heaven. Did she like it? Check out our conversation…
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Intro to Mormon Polygamists
GT 01:04 How did you learn about this?
Cristina 01:07 Reading Mike Quinn, reading scholars who had [expertise in Mormon polygamy,] reading Brian Hales, reading Craig Foster, reading just more and more.
GT 01:14 Because Brian’s got a lot of stuff on fundamentalism.
Cristina 01:16 Right. And also, Craig Foster, and Newell Bringhurst and Brian Hales had done a lot of work on post manifesto, polygamy. And that was a fairly new idea for me because I had heard in Institute, especially, that polygamy ends in 1890.
GT 01:29 It’s probably news for most people who sit in the pews, too.
Cristina 01:33 And I’ve heard some strange justifications for polygamy in Institute. One woman told me the story that so many men died crossing the plains. But polygamy starts before that.
GT 01:45 Right.
Cristina 01:48 So I was like, wait a minute. I heard it started in Nauvoo. So, just that was interesting to me.
GT 01:59 It was just to take care of the widows.
Cristina 02:03 Yes. There was not that no such thing as the Anointed Quorum, none of that. And then I continued to read through these brilliant people and the documents, realizing it doesn’t end in 1904, either.
GT 02:18 After the Reed Smoot Hearings.
Cristina 02:20 A lot of scholars have written a lot about that. And that was interesting to me. And as I’m learning about post-manifesto polygamy, I meet Mormon fundamentalists.
GT 02:30 You meet them?
Cristina 02:31 Yeah.
GT 02:32 At Sunstone?
Cristina 02:33 At Sunstone, at MHA, at the Church History Library.
GT 02:39 They come to MHA? I’ve never seen them at MHA.
Cristina 02:45 Fundamentalists come to MHA. Craig Foster’s co-author, Marianne Watson, is a Mormon fundamentalist.
GT 02:50 Oh yeah, I forgot about her. Okay.
Cristina 02:53 She’s brilliant. She wrote (I think) one of the greatest essays.
GT 02:58 I’m trying to get her on, but she seems quite camera shy, apparently.
Cristina 03:01 Her article on the origins of placement marriage was brilliant. I highly recommend [it.] It’s from Dialogue. I highly recommend it. It’s field-changing for studying Mormon fundamentalism.
GT 03:17 Put in a good word for me with her.
Cristina 03:20 Just shoot her an email.
GT 03:21 Her husband is the prophet, now, of the AUB, I think. Did you know that?
Cristina 03:26 That is correct. I knew that.
GT 03:27 You knew that. Of course you did. I’m still jealous of you. You’ve been to Christ’s Church temple.
Cristina 03:33 I have.
GT 03:33 I haven’t. And you’re not even Mormon.
Cristina 03:38 I’m not.
GT 03:39 I talked to David Patrick. You know David.
Cristina 03:41 Yeah. He was here.
GT 03:43 I told him, “I have a temple recommend, even.”
Cristina 03:47 Do you have the right temple recommend, Rick?
GT 03:48 No, that’s the problem.
Cristina 03:50 Right. Yeah, I realized that polygamy doesn’t end in 1890. It doesn’t end in 1904. It doesn’t end in 1933. It never ends.
GT 04:02 It ends officially in 1933.
Cristina 04:04 But I mean, it doesn’t end in general. It ends in the LDS Church.
GT 04:07 Right.
Cristina 04:07 But it doesn’t end broadly. It’s still going. And that was interesting.
Line of Authority for Polygamy
Cristina 04:10 What I was actually more interested in, I wasn’t so much interested in the polygamy. I was really interested in how the line of authority worked that allowed for it to keep going.
GT 04:23 Right.
Cristina 04:24 That’s what really interested me.
GT 04:27 Some of my listeners might not know that. Do you want to tell that story?
Cristina 04:30 Sure. It’s a complicated story. But the story that a lot of Mormon fundamentalists tell is that in 1886, John Taylor is in hiding. And he’s in hiding largely because the federal government is starting to dis-incorporate or is considering dis-incorporating the Church. It’s disenfranchising women. It’s threatening to do a lot in terms of the territory. It’s a really difficult time. And John Taylor is in hiding. A lot of his associates are saying, “You need to inquire of the Lord of what to do about this.”
GT 05:09 With the idea of maybe he would get rid of polygamy, right?
Cristina 05:12 Maybe. I mean, John Taylor was ride or die for the principle. Like, if a prophet was going to get rid of it, it wasn’t going to be John Taylor.
GT 05:23 I’ve heard speculation that when Wilford Woodruff became president, people were like, “Oh, he’s going to get rid of it.” Have you heard that?
Cristina 05:31 I haven’t.
GT 05:32 Oh.
Cristina 05:34 Yeah, I mean, can you imagine? John Taylor is probably rolling over [in his grave.] I don’t know. It’s a tough one because John Taylor was willing to die for this. John Taylor.
GT 05:46 Well, he died in hiding.
Cristina 05:47 He died in hiding. But John Taylor believed Brigham Young. Brigham Young says that you cannot become gods, even the sons of God without entering into the practice of plural marriage. John Taylor believed him. John Taylor was a believer in this. And so, John Taylor, in 1886, he’s in Centerville, Utah, and he ends up going to pray. And in the later accounts, so this is one of the complicated parts is that later, we have accounts from later on.
The 1950s Split
Cristina 06:17: But later, one of the men who was there, his name was Lorin C. Woolley, He recounts that he saw a light shine from under the door that John Taylor was in. And the story goes that over a period of eight hours, it’s called the eight-hour meeting. Over a period of eight hours, he met with the resurrected Jesus Christ and Joseph Smith. And he comes out with a revelation. The revelation is authentic. It is written in John Taylor’s hand. The later events regarding it are where it’s a little murky. But he ends up writing a revelation which basically says, “None of my Commandments can be revoked. None of my ordinances can be changed, Thus saith the LORD.” Within the context of the revelation and everything, it’s assumed that that means plural marriage is here to stay. So, that happens. Now, the 1886 Revelation is not unique for John Taylor. In 1882, John Taylor’s really saying the same thing. John Taylor’s always saying this. This isn’t unique. What makes the story unique though, is in 1922, Lorin C. Woolley starts telling a story that changes everything, where he starts telling people, not only was that revelation there, but John Taylor set apart a group of men to continue the practice of plural marriage, world without end. And Lorin Woolley argues, ultimately, that he is one of those men and that he is has the authority to perpetuate plural marriage. And this group, he eventually ordained other men. This becomes the Council of Friends. This is the modern fundamentalist movement or when it really begins.
GT 07:50 This leads to the FLDS/AUB and all of the other groups.
Cristina 07:52 All of the groups. Yeah.
GT 06:14 Pretty much. There are some that come outside that.
Cristina 07:56 Kind of outside. But in the 1950s, there’s a big split in the Council of Friends. The split is over a controversial ordination that happens. It’s over how we’re going to do communitarianism. It’s over how we’re going to do a million things. And there’s a big split. The split ends up following in the line of John Y. Barlow on one side, which becomes the FLDS and Joseph Musser on the other side, which becomes the AUB. So, that’s kind of– and then from there. Within that, though, Louis Kelch was one of the early men within this movement. He’s kind of considered the father of the independent movement. So, independent Mormon fundamentalists, have existed from the inception of the modern Mormon fundamentalist movement. So, it’s been a diverse movement ever since then. But that was really interesting to me in how the priesthood claims and the authority claims were reconfigured in a time where people were really struggling with what to make sense of the end of polygamy. What does that mean, tangibly? That sounds so complicated. What does the end of polygamy mean? Like how do you do the end of polygamy? Does it mean mass divorce? Does it mean, like, what happens to the kids? Are the men not involved in these kids’ lives anymore? What happens to the women? What happens to the children who were taught that you have to be polygamous to go to heaven? What happens to this? How do you do this? How do you end polygamy? And so, the 1910s, 20s I mean, free dissertation idea, the 1910s is so under-studied. But the 1920s, 30s was this time of really trying to figure out what are we going to do? Like, how are we going to be Mormon in America in the 20th century? And so that was just so interesting to me, especially with the relationship with the LDS Church, that some LDS leaders were still practicing polygamy or still solemnizing plural marriages. Some of them were friends with the fundamentalist movement, which again, of course, they were. They were in Salt Lake City. They’re all going to church together. Of course, they were. I’m just in copy edits of a book I wrote on Joseph Musser. And one of the really interesting things about Joseph Musser, his mission president was…
GT 10:10 We’re going to have to have you back on for your book release.
Cristina 10:15 Joseph Musser’s president was J. Golden Kimball.
GT 10:17 Oh, really?
Cristina 10:18 Yeah, southern states and Joseph Musser is excommunicated. He and J. Golden Kimball continue writing each other letters until J. Golden Kimball dies, and Joseph Musser goes to his funeral. This is a complicated time of being excommunicated, being an apostate for polygamy at least. it wasn’t [clear.] I mean, he’s friends with J. Golden Kimball still. It’s a complicated thing. And so that was what was really interesting to me is, how do these multiple expressions of Mormonism interact together in this time, where what it means to be Mormon is a big question?
GT 10:59 Wow. Well, and I know that Rulon Jeffs knew Hugh B. Brown and Gordon B. Hinckley.
Cristina 11:10 Yeah, he was married to Zola Brown.
GT 11:11 Yeah.
Cristina 11:12 And Hugh B. Brown, Homer Brown was friends with the movement. So there’s a lot of…
GT 11:23 Homer is Hugh B’s father?
Cristina 11:25 Yes, Homer Duncan Brown was friends with a lot of the fundamentalist men.
GT 11:30 Well, it is kind of funny because you have the 1890 Manifesto. And so the idea was, at least publicly. The public idea was, “Okay, we’re not going to make you divorce all your wives. You can still be a good church member. You can still come to church. Just don’t take any more. Like we’re done.”
Cristina 11:51 Right.
GT 11:52 So, the idea was, we’re going to gradually just wind this down. But they had kids that didn’t want to wind it down.
Cristina 11:59 Right. I mean, in 1909 Joseph Musser, I know I mention him a lot, but he just happens to be the early member of the movement that I just know the most about. Joseph Musser goes to a disciplinary Council in 1909. He’s called to a council in the Salt Lake Temple. Imagine going to a disciplinary Council in Salt Lake Temple. And in his diaries, he complains that he had to wait 20 minutes. He’s had to sit and wait. I mean, he’s called into a council and the men in the council, it’s Heber J. Grant, it’s Anthony W. Ivins, it’s Rudger Clawson. And he looks at these men and he’s like, really…
GT 12:36 You’re going to excommunicate me?
Cristina 12:37 Really, that’s what you’re doing? And he calls them on it. He’s like, “Who amongst us has not agreed with plural marriage in recent years?”
GT 12:47 So, they were going to excommunicate him because he had taken a post-[Manifesto wife?]
Cristina 12:51 They were disciplining him. So there wasn’t…
GT 12:54 Because he had taken another wife after 1904, at least, right?
Cristina 12:59 Yeah, so after 1906. Mathias Cowley sealed him to Mary C. Hill, and…
GT 13:08 Mathias Cowley, in the Quorum of Twelve.
Cristina 13:11 Yes, sealed him.
GT 13:13 So, this is why Matthias gets dropped from the quorum.
Cristina 13:16 Not necessarily just because of Musser’s sealing, but Musser’s sealing was among them.
GT 13:22 He was doing this for a lot of people.
Cristina 13:24 And Joseph Musser was sealed again.
GT 13:28 [The year] 1906 is also when David O. McKay became an apostle to replace Matthias Cowley.
Cristina 13:34 Right. There’s a lot going on. Musser was sealed again by Judson Tolman, who was a patriarch, back when patriarchs had sealing authority. Judson Tolman is renowned for being a sealer of the fundamentalist movement or sealed a lot of people. But Musser goes to a disciplinary Council in 1909, and basically says, “Who amongst us has not done this?” And he knows. He looks at Heber J. Grant and he goes, “You’re a polygamist.” Not currently. “But you practiced polygamy.
GT 14:01 Right.
Cristina 14:02 Heber J. Grant is the last polygamist.
GT 14:04 He’s an apostle, at the time.
Cristina 14:05 Right, at the time. He’s the president of the Quorum.
GT 14:08 Oh, Heber was president?
Cristina 14:09 Yeah, because he’s going to be the Prophet.
GT 14:13 Oh, did he replace Joseph F. Smith?
Cristina 14:16 Yes.
GT 14:16 Okay.
Cristina 14:17 Heber, J. Grant, and George Albert Smith… [Singing the primary song.]
GT 14:19 Oh my gosh.
Cristina 14:20 David O. McKay. [singing]
GT 14:21 Oh, my gosh, where did you learn that?
Cristina 14:23 Oh…
GT 14:25 Did Lindsey teach it to you?
Cristina 14:27 I’ve been around.
GT 14:29 I don’t know that song.
Cristina 14:31 What? You didn’t learn that in primary?
GT 14:32 That was not a primary song when I was in Primary. I’m old.
Cristina 14:35 [Singing] Latter-day prophets are, number one… So, it’s actually how I have memorized them, to be fair. It’s how I learned them, because I realized I should know them.
GT 14:47 Maybe I should learn that song.
Cristina 14:50 My gosh, it was the easiest way for me to learn them, but it’s how I learned the books of the Bible, too. I still have to think about the Bible song. But, yeah, so he also does the loophole thing where he says, “This is out of order. None of you are my stake president.”
GT 15:08 Well, he’s got the second anointing, so he’s like, “Well, it doesn’t matter.”
Cristina 15:10 He does have a second anointing. He does. That’s true. He does have a second anointing. But also, that’s true that none of them are his stake president. And that is the order of how you’re supposed to go about discipline in the LDS Church. Now, the problem is his stake president, William Smart, is a polygamist. So, William’s not going to discipline him and he and Smart had this, were considering recreating the United Order. They were doing a lot. And they were business partners. Smart’s not getting rid of him or not going to discipline him, certainly.
GT 15:47 So, the Twelve actually had to discipline him themselves?
Cristina 15:50 Well, this is the best part of the story. Nothing happens.
GT 15:53 Oh.
Cristina 15:54 That’s it. He’s let go.
GT 15:56 Really?
Cristina 15:57 Yeah, nothing happens.
GT 16:00 Until…
Cristina 16:01 … 1921.
GT 16:02 Okay.
Cristina 16:02 But that’s a long time.
GT 16:03 Yeah, that’s 12 years, yeah.
Cristina 16:05 And it only happened because there was a story where–what’s hard is he was accused of courting a woman, Marianne Bringhurst, and plotting to be sealed to her.
GT 16:24 She’s got to be related to Newell, right?
Cristina 16:26 She is.
GT 16:27 I’m sure.
Cristina 16:29 But that never happened.
GT 16:34 He didn’t court this Bringhurst lady.
Cristina 16:36 He denied it. He denied it forever, and the sealing never happened. There was no sealing and in his private diaries, he denied this ever happening. And he notes, he’s like, she’s a great gal. I’m not married to her, at all. And then he is finally excommunicated in 1921. His excommunication is posted in the Deseret News.
GT 16:59 Did he have any other marriages after 1909.
Cristina 17:03 So, one of the hard things is, I mentioned I wrote his biography. And I’m still trying to figure out how many sealings he had.
GT 17:13 How many do you know of?
Cristina 17:15 Well, so what’s hard is Marianne Watson, she noted 15. So, I don’t know many of their names. So I know that he was married to Rose Selms Borquist. He was married to Alice R. Shipp Jr. That is Ellis Reynolds Shipp’s, daughter, Mary Caroline Hill, Myrtle Anderson, who’s only sealed to him for like a minute. She peace-s out pretty soon. She doesn’t like it.
GT 17:48 So, she divorces him, basically.
Cristina 17:49 Yeah, she doesn’t like it. She moves. She leaves Utah. But a lot of, Marianne Watson noted knowing about her. I thought it was this moment where I found [a wife.] Brian Buchanan and I were looking into the documents, because we’re publishing Musser’s diaries with Signature Books. And we thought we found a plural wife. And Marianne Watson was like, “No, we all knew about her.” I was like, “Of course you did, because…” And then Lucy O. Camitch. Lucy and her sisters are married to many of the men in the council. So those are the ones that we have solid, firm evidence of their sealings. But I don’t know much about the others. And I don’t know their names. But according to several people, like Marianne Watson, there were more than that. I just don’t know their names. So, I do note that that there are additional sealings.
GT 18:42 So, Marianne Watson says there’s 15, but she doesn’t know the names?
Cristina 18:46 We were at MHA when she told me, so I didn’t ask her to continue this rabbit trail. But, what is difficult is that fundamentalist sealings, especially in this period, are very hard to find documentation for.
GT 19:01 I wonder why? (Chuckling.)
Cristina 19:03 Like, just yesterday…
GT 19:04 Could it be a secret thing? (Chuckling)
Cristina 19:06 I know! Just yesterday, Bryan Buchanan sent me a news clipping of a woman and he was like, “I think this is one of saints’ wives.” And just for a variety of reasons. So, he’s looking into that right now. But yeah, so I was just so interested in how these multiple lines of authority happen, how they manifest in the present. It just been such an interesting story.
GT 19:32 Wow, very cool.
Cristina 19:34 And then I did get to go in a temple once. I’ve only ever been in one LDS temple.
GT 19:42 Oh, you’ve been in an LDS–are you coming up to Saratoga Springs? You can go in another one?
Cristina 19:46 Well, I’m waiting for St. George, the OG.
GT 19:51 Well, if you want to go in April, Saratoga Springs’ open house.
Cristina 19:55 I’m waiting for the OG Temple. But I went to the open house for Jordan River.
GT 20:02 Okay. Well, you were asking me beforehand. We’ve got the St. George temple and what’s the other one called?
Cristina 20:11 I think it’s called Washington Fields.[1]
GT 20:12 And it’s nearby here, somewhere.
Cristina 20:14 It’s like–I don’t know it’s by Quick Quack carwash.
GT 20:23 In Washington.
Cristina 20:24 Well, it’s in St. George.
GT 20:25 Oh, it’s in St. George.
Cristina 20:26 So, it is in St. George.
GT 20:27 So this is another city with two temples.
Cristina 20:29 It’s going to be another, yes, it is. But apparently the St. George Temple is busy, and it is pretty small.
GT 20:37 Right.
Cristina 20:38 And there are a lot of LDS people here. I mean, I don’t know.
GT 20:41 Well, and you’ve got Cedar City, too.
Cristina 20:43 Right. Cedar City has a temple and Vegas has a temple.
GT 20:46 Right.
Cristina 20:49 I think that’s about it in the area. Because the next temple after Cedar City is probably Payson.
GT 20:55 Yeah, unless you want to go to Monticello. It’s a different direction.
Cristina 20:59 Right. Or Manti, I guess would be.
GT 21:02 Yeah, Manti’s closed for renovations right now.
Cristina 21:04 That’s right. But that’s closer than Payson.
Cristina 21:08 Yeah. I mean, I have a student who just got married and they got married in the Bountiful Temple.
GT 21:15 Okay, well, I’m just telling you, Saratoga Springs’ open house is April, May and June.
Cristina 21:21 I’m not going to Saratoga Springs.
GT 21:23 Oh, come on. You’ve got to go to Salt Lake for something.
Cristina 21:26 I do. I will drive up for the Salt Lake open house when that finally happens. But I was talking to the–during the planning or the getting ready for the Juanita conference, I was talking to the mission president in the tabernacle, because we used his space. And he and his wife said that the Salt Lake Temple may not be done for a few years.
GT 21:45 Yeah. Supply chain problems everywhere.
Cristina 21:49 But I will definitely plan to be there for the St. George one. Because that’s such a historic building.
GT 21:57 I’m scared to see. Actually, I guess they remodeled it years ago.
Cristina 22:02 The plans for it, if you go in to the Visitor’s Center, the plans for it look beautiful. And it looks like it is like a true restoration of it and that it does look more true to the original.
GT 22:16 Oh?
Cristina 22:17 It looks beautiful inside, like the plans for it, that they did, really do look beautiful. I know there was a lot of controversy with Manti and Salt Lake. I haven’t heard a lot of rumblings.
GT 22:27 I’m scared what they’re going to do to Salt Lake.
Cristina 22:29 I don’t know. I have heard a lot of rumblings. I haven’t heard any rumblings about St. George, though. People just seem pretty happy with how it’s going. They did add a big addition to it for an entryway that is kind of similar to what Salt Lake has.
GT 22:41 Okay.
Cristina 22:41 But, I don’t know. When did they stop using the actual doors on temples, on the historic temples?
GT 22:54 I mean, that’s just where they take all the pictures for the weddings now.
Cristina 22:56 Yeah. But like, those doors had to have been used at one point?
GT 22:59 I would think so. But I can’t tell you. I don’t know. I’m not another pioneer temple expert on that.
Cristina 23:06 Same.
GT 23:07 All right, we were talking about the split in 1950. Is it 1950, the split?
Cristina 23:12 [It’s in] 1954.
GT 23:00 And so that’s where…
Cristina 23:08 There’s contestation between 1952 to 1954.
GT 23:17 Okay, the 1950s, there’s a split between the FLDS and the AUB.
Cristina 23:23 And they don’t have those names yet.
GT 23:25 Yeah, I mean, I guess it was the Allred group and Jeffs group.
Cristina 23:32 They called, a lot of them called it The Work.
GT 23:34 The Work. On one side or the other?
Cristina 23:36 A lot of fundamentalists in Short Creek, especially during Leroy Johnson’s presidency, referred to what they were doing as The Work. So varying names, but the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints isn’t incorporated until 1991 as an official entity.
GT 23:56 I thought it was 1980. It was 1991, really? It was that late? I didn’t realize that. Wow.
Cristina 24:02 And the AUB…
GT 24:03 Didn’t they organize more in the 80’s, though?
Cristina 24:05 Yeah, no, absolutely. But, I mean, in terms of an incorporated entity, with recognition for this name, and the entity of what it is.
GT 24:13 Okay. And then the AUB was in what year?
Cristina 24:17 I don’t know the exact year that the AUB was incorporated formally.
GT 24:20 Was it before or after, any idea?
Cristina 24:21 Oh, it was before.
GT 24:22 It was before, okay.
Cristina 24:23 Yeah, they were in the early 70s.
TLC Church
Interview
GT 24:26 And so, well, and I understand your TLC [expert], which is the Harmston group…
Cristina 24:32 Yeah, I wrote one chapter of my dissertation on the TLC.
GT 24:36 True and Living Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, right?
Cristina 24:39 The True and Living Church of Jesus Christ of Saints of the Last Days.
GT 24:41 Oh okay, they’ve got to mix it up a little bit.
Cristina 24:44 The red brick store with Jim Harmston, and their buildings are still there. The signs are down, though, like the…
GT 24:50 In Manti?
Cristina 24:51 Yeah, in Manti.
GT 24:52 When did TLC get going.
Cristina 24:55 So, the TLC was, it was really interesting to me for similar reason. Because if you don’t have a line of authority, how do you start? And Jim Harmston was a really interesting example of someone who is not connected to the Council of Friends. He’s not connected to Musser or Woolley, or any of these men. And he very, out of the blue, emerges as a fundamentalist leader. He incorporates his church, and his church starts. It’s organized in 1994. And his church is organized through the True Order of Prayer. What ends up happening, so a lot of families…
GT 25:34 Could we call him kind of an independent fundamentalist?
Cristina 25:37 So early on, he had a Bible study, like a Sunday school Bible study type thing that he would do in his home. And he, a lot of people traveled from all over to it. It was a really well-attended Bible study that people loved. He was really smart. He was charismatic. He knew the doctrine. He knew the scriptures. Ogden Kraut went to it for a while.
GT 26:00 He was with all the groups, though.
Cristina 26:02 I learned that from Anne, who I know you had on, that he attended it. So many people say, “Oh, my aunt went to it.” A lot of people in the fundamentalist movement have some connection to knowing someone who went to it. And in 1994, some families, at the time, had altars in their home, had home altars. Altars have a long history, of course, in the LDS Church and altars existed in stake centers, sometimes. Some families had them in their homes. And Jim Harmston was one of those families that had an altar in his home. And one evening and in 1994, he kneels at the altar with his wife. And in the later accounts of this, the veil opens between this world and the next. And he is ordained at the hands of the apostles. But there’s varying stories to this. In some accounts, he sees the three Nephites. In some accounts, he sees the great patriarchs of old. And all that to say he is instructed that he is a re-restoration, that the restoration has fallen so greatly into apostasy, that on one hand, Lorin Woolley tells that there is an unbroken line of secession, for priesthood, it’s just outside of the LDS Church and the institution. Jim Harmston makes the argument that it is so corrupted that there had to have been a re-restoration.
GT 27:30 So, he’s the new Joseph Smith.
Cristina 27:33 And he is that, he is the reincarnation of Joseph Smith.
GT 27:37 Oh.
Cristina 27:37 There are multiple mortal probations. And one of the interesting things with him…
GT 27:41 Like reincarnation?
Cristina 27:43 So, multiple mortal probation, so from my understanding, from speaking with a couple of former members of the TLC, is they discussed how it’s a little different than reincarnation, in that you can only be born into a human body gendered the same gender. So, you could only…
GT 28:03 That would be a problem.
Cristina 28:04 You could only come back as a man, a human being. You couldn’t become anything else.
GT 28:10 Gender is eternal.
Cristina 28:11 And so that would be the family proclamation. And so that would be their subtle distinction. But multiple moral probations is an interesting doctrine that has historic roots. A lot of them will trace it back to Heber C. Kimball. Heber C. Kimball talked about how if you are not perfected in this life, maybe you’ll get another chance and another probation and another probationary period. They also draw on Brigham Young. Brigham Young had some comments that basically all men will have to become saviors of a world before attaining their final exaltation as God. And so, through a lot of these 19th century doctrines, the TLC came up with their own understanding of multiple mortal probations that all people travelled through multiple probations before attaining their final exaltation. One of the really interesting things about the TLC is that the TLC would give patriarchal blessings. And in their patriarchal blessings, many people learned their past probations of who they were in their past lives. So, some people would find out that they were Parley Pratt. Some people would find out that they were really great figures of old.
GT 29:17 I was just going to say that they’re never just like, “Yeah, your Joe the slave or something, ” A no-name person.
Cristina 29:23 You’re usually not the person in the Bible that is like, “And four people traveled alongside.” You’re usually not that person. And they understood that, though, in a very particular–because I asked that question. And they understood that that if you were a member of the TLC, you are among the elect of the Latter-day Saint tradition. So, of course, you are going to be someone who has traveled through significant past probations. If you landed in the TLC in this life, of course you were elect in a past probation. They have this theology that works in that way. Brigham Young, and then later fundamentalists leaders talked about passing through different offices. Joseph Musser really elaborates this in his pamphlet, “Michael, our Father and our God,” where he talks about (and Ogden Kraut, somewhat.) But Joseph Musser really does, where there’s different offices of the Godhead. And there is the Father office, the salvific office, and then the witness testator office. And some would say that you have to pass through the office of witness testator and then you have to become a savior of a world and then you can finally attain your last exaltation. So because of this, a lot of fundamentalist groups talk about Joseph Smith being the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost does get a body. He gets it in the fullness of time. Joseph Smith is nothing, as a prophet, a prophet is nothing if not a witness and testator. And so, Joseph Smith is the Holy Ghost, and then potentially is in a salvific office right at this time, or in the past few years, and then attains his final exaltation, which is the assumption. Jim Harmston ultimately makes the claim that he is Joseph Smith, come again, and therefore, the Holy Ghost. So, I’ve heard from a couple of past members, and so I can’t verify if this is true for the TLC. But one former member mentioned that there was some talk that he was in the office of Elohim. I can’t verify if that’s actually…
GT 31:34 That who was in the office of Elohim?
Cristina 31:36 James, Jim Harmston, after his death.
GT 31:38 Oh, so he’s now Elohim, because he went from Holy Ghost and he got promoted to Elohim.
Cristina 31:43 They’re different offices. So, I can’t verify if that’s TLC doctrine.
GT 31:46 I mean, is that just kind of the Adam-God ladder?
Cristina 31:49 Yeah, so I mean, the Adam-God doctrine, a lot of people associate with Brigham Young, of course, they do, because of his sermon. But the fundamentalist movement doesn’t stop there. They definitely build on the doctrine and elaborate on how it all works. Joseph Musser is Michael, Our Father and our God is really the quintessential work that extrapolates and goes beyond just what Brigham Young said, to really try to make sense of this idea. The way he does it is really cool in the book. And he is really where we first start to see, he and Lorin Woolley, where we first start to see that Joseph Smith is the Holy Ghost. And so, they really build on this idea. And Jim Harmston really grabs hold of this. And people come to believe that he is Joseph Smith. What is interesting is that he dies on the anniversary of Joseph Smith’s martyrdom, which only…
GT 31:49 Is this from natural causes?
Cristina 31:55 He has a heart attack, so yeah. But I mean, Jim Harmston, though…
Cristina 32:22 How old was he, roughly?
Cristina 32:43 I don’t remember how old he was. I wrote this so long ago. It was such a long time ago. I mean, it is always important to mention that, as much as Jim Harmston was beloved, and has such an interesting story, there are significant allegations of abuse within the TLC that are always worth noting, and always worth discussing. There is a book by a woman named Rachel Strong, who talks about her experience in the Harmston group. So that’s just something that is worth noting that it did become widely known in the state of Utah for underage marriage. It did become widely known for abuse. So, that is also absolutely a part of the TLC story that can’t be just brushed over and not told. But, yeah, I mean, what’s so interesting about the fundamentalist movement is most of them, of course, trace their lineage to the Council of Friends. But there are fundamentalist groups that are born all the time.
GT 33:51 I know.
Cristina 33:52 You’re like, I’m aware.
GT 33:54 I’ve had some on my podcast.
Cristina 33:55 Yeah. I mean, Christ Church comes out of the AUB. Centennial Park comes out of the FLDS. Like, all the time, just new religions.
RLDS Schisms
GT 34:06 I don’t know if you know, you probably don’t follow RLDS schisms like I do. But there’s a new church, the Everlasting Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Days.
Cristina 34:18 Oh.
GT 34:19 Jim Vun Cannon, who was an early guest in my first year. He was in the Remnant Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, not Denver Snuffer’s group. This is Fred Larsen. They were incorporated around 2000, I think. Fred lived into his 90s and probably two or three years ago, he was, I think he was 95. He died. They had a schism. And so, Jim was in the First Presidency. He was Sidney Rigdon. Terry Patience was the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. He was Brigham Young. Brigham Young won. Jim schism-ed and Everlasting Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Days [was born.] That’s just within the last couple of years.
Cristina 35:10 Wow.
GT 35:12 I went to Independence. And it was so weird, I got this really dumpy motel in Independence. And I saw the sign for the Everlasting Church and I was like, Oh my gosh, that’s Jim’s church.
Cristina 35:29 What was the [name?] There was a name that they used when Community of Christ emerged. The people who wanted to remain RLDS. What was the name that some of them used? Do you remember?
GT 35:42 Restorationists?
Cristina 35:43 Restoration Branches, that’s the name that I was looking for in my head. That just came to mind. Those are the only two that I know is that there’s Restoration branches, and then there’s Community of Christ.
GT 35:54 Yeah. If you go to Independence, like, just drive around. You’ve got…
Cristina 35:58 Oh, I’m sure.
GT 35:59 The Restored Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, the Remnant Church of Jesus Christ, the Everlasting Church. You’re just like, there’s Mormons everywhere. But they don’t call themselves Mormons, but I do.
Cristina 36:11 And that’s such a, I mean, again, free dissertation and book idea. Like there’s so much talk about the different groups that break off from Brigham Young and the tradition that comes West.
GT 36:23 Oh, yeah.
Cristina 36:23 But there’s just not enough history. I am completely uninformed about the break offs from the RLDS. There are different groups that all connect themselves to Strang. So I mean…
Cristina 36:38 Well, that brings up two things that are kind of related. You know, Bill Russell talked on my podcast recently about Jeff Lundgren, who most LDS people have never heard of. But he is the Ron and Dan Lafferty of the RLDS Church.
Cristina 36:56 Yeah, I remember during, when Under the Banner of Heaven came out, a lot of that came up.
GT 37:00 Right.
Cristina 37:00 I mean, I saw it on Facebook. And that was the first time I had heard about it was seeing people post on different Facebook groups.
GT 37:07 There was a recent podcast about [Jeffrey] Lundgren. I’m trying to remember what it was called. It was a murder podcast where they talk about different murders. I’ll see if I can find it here really quickly. I just subscribed because I’m fascinated. The podcast is called “Who Killed…?” And let’s see if I can find the [episode:] February 2, The Kirtland Cult Killings, Part One and Two. It is marked explicit. So, there’s some language issues there. But they go into that big time. And I mean, it’s funny, Jeff Lundgren, because he’s a former RLDS, so they hate polygamy. But he wants other people’s wives. It’s just crazy.
Cristina 38:07 Yikes.
GT 38:08 And it’s a terrible, terrible story.
Under the Banner of Heaven
GT 38:10 Under the Banner of Heaven, did you have anything to do with that?
Cristina 38:12 Nope.
GT 38:13 Okay.
Cristina 38:14 No, I mean, I wrote an article for Religion Dispatches, but no.
GT 38:19 Any impressions of it? Is it accurate, inaccurate?
Cristina 38:23 I mean, it was definitely fictionalized. There were a lot of additions. The part that I think was so interesting…. Did you see it?
GT 38:33 I have not seen it. I’ll tell you why.
Cristina 38:36 Okay.
GT 38:37 Because I’m a cheapskate. And it was on Hulu, I think. I knew that if I signed up right away that I wouldn’t get to see the whole series because it was over six weeks or something. And I wanted to get the free one-month subscription.
Cristina 38:50 Right.
GT 38:51 So I waited a few weeks, and then everybody’s like, it’s not worth watching. So, I never watched it. Was it worth watching?
Cristina 38:59 I mean, if you like true crime, I watched it.
GT 39:02 But it was fictionalized. That was the big issue.
Cristina 39:05 It was.
GT 39:05 The detective was a fictional detective. The critique I heard was, he was to represent a faith crisis guy. They invented him. He was like a composite character.
Cristina 39:18 He was based on someone not related to the story, but he was based on a person who was a police officer. I liked it. Again, I’m not LDS. I’m not connected to the story.
GT 39:31 You went to a Young Single Adult Ward.
Cristina 39:33 I went to a YSA Ward.
GT 39:34 But you’re not quite into the culture enough would you say?
Cristina 39:37 I mean, I’m not connected to the story enough for it to have had a really strong opinion about it. I stopped listening to true crime. I used to really like My Favorite Murder, and then I stopped listening to true crime a couple of years ago. But, I mean, I liked it. The part that I thought was so interesting about it, there’s a scene in the second to last episode, I believe, where Ron goes to Oregon. And he is at a ranch. And there’s frolicking and wine. And then he’s baptized by this man who kisses him. And a lot of people were really scandalized. And they were like, “What is happening?”
Cristina 40:18 But one of the interesting things about that was someone, a fundamentalist man was consulted for that scene, because that was a real group in Oregon that Ron Lafferty looked into for a while.
GT 40:32 The Bundys?
Cristina 40:32 No. [He] looked into for awhile, that had a lot of these kinds of really controversial practices and had a lot of sexual practices in their tradition. And so I thought, some of those little [details were good.] I think in the grand story arc, there were a lot of big criticisms. But I thought those little things were really interesting, because they reflected these little-known parts of fundamentalist history that I thought were interesting. A lot of people were really quick to criticize its representation of the LDS Church. One of the interesting things was no one was really quick to criticize its representation of fundamentalism.
GT 41:11 Was it good? Was it a good representation of fundamentalism?
Cristina 41:14 Well, there were a couple things that I thought were really well done. The first was when Ron and Dan Lafferty go and visit Short Creek. They’re never members of the Short Creek community. But I thought it would have been really easy to put all the women in prairie dresses. But prairie dresses weren’t worn yet, at that time.
GT 41:32 That didn’t happen until like the 2000s, right? Or even later.
Cristina 41:36 It was in the 80s, like the 90s they started to get more and more looking like that. But I thought that was interesting that they paid attention to that. And then, secondarily, I thought the representation of Robert Crossfield was really well done.
Robert Crossfield
GT 41:51 Oh, because he has his own story, Robert Crossfield?
Cristina 41:57 Yes the prophet Onias, yeah.
GT 41:59 Can you talk about him? Because Steve Shields talked a little bit about him, but I don’t have a lot of detail on him other than Steve thought he was a terrible person.
Cristina 42:08 Yeah, I mean, yeah. I do think he was abusive. He was an abusive father. And an abusive man who taught doctrines that were abusive, especially to his family. But he was very similar to Jim Harmston in a lot of ways. One of the things about that time period in the 1980s, and 1990s, was really a high point and seeing people who were Sunday school teachers or were doing home meetings, and they start their own groups out of that. And Robert Crossfield was very similar to that story in that he is a Sunday school teacher. He’s starting his own home meetings. He’s starting Bible studies.
GT 42:49 Is he also in American Fork? Do you know?
Cristina 42:52 He was in the Salem area.
GT 42:54 Okay, so that’s a little farther south in Utah County.
Cristina 42:56 Yeah. And he starts to slowly receive his own revelations. He ends up publishing those revelations, under the pseudonym, the prophet Onias. And he starts the School of the Prophets, which eventually is joined by the Lafferty brothers. But that group, it was always very small. But it spoke to what a lot of people in the 1980s and 1990s were looking for. I mean, the 1980s and 1990s were a time, as you know, of significant change in the LDS Church. And with the significant change in the LDS Church, there was significant disenfranchisement among a lot of people, especially around the temple. And so, the Prophet Onias was one of those people that was trying to speak to people’s really disheartened feelings toward the direction the LDS Church was going. He just happened to also be, as Steve Shields noted, an abusive person.
GT 42:57 So, I mean, he wasn’t a murderer like the Laffertys’ though. Right?
Cristina 43:24 He was not.
GT 43:27 The Laffertys broke off from him, or did he kick them out? Or do you know?
Cristina 44:06 He condemned the murders soon after. Very soon after, he published a statement saying no. When the Lafferty brothers came to the School of the Prophets with the revelation that they were going to commit this atrocity, The School of the Prophets did say this isn’t a revelation. So, the group did immediately say, “No, this is not from God.”
GT 44:34 You’re talking about the revelation to kill Brenda Lafferty? Right?
Cristina 44:39 Yeah.
GT 44:40 I don’t remember who got [the revelation], Ron or Dan. I get them mixed up all the time.
Cristina 44:43 So, I mean, they couched it in revelation.
GT 44:45 There was a revelation to kill Brenda Lafferty.
Cristina 44:47 They brought it forth to the School of the Prophets and the School the Prophets said, “No, this is not [good.] We’re not signing on to whatever nonsense this is.”
GT 44:56 They just went and did it anyway.
Cristina 44:57 And they went and did it anyway, unfortunately, tragically. They went and did it anyway.
GT 45:01 And killed her two-year-old daughter, as well.
Cristina 45:03 Unfortunately.
GT 45:05 She was upset because–was she married to a brother?
Cristina 45:10 She was.
GT 45:12 She didn’t like their polygamy talk, right?
Cristina 45:15 No. She was also outspoken against the abuse she saw in the family. I mean, her sister has spoken quite a bit about Brenda. But tragically, she dies, and the School of the Prophets did release a statement soon after condemning it, but the School of the Prophets [shut down.] It’s hard to [continue,] If you know someone who was close friends with you who does something horrendous, and you’re a part of the religion, it’s very hard to be like, “We have nothing to do with it.” So, the School the Prophets ends up getting a bad name and getting a bad rap after that. And, eventually, Robert Crossfield dies. I think he dies pretty recently, like 2012. He dies pretty recently. There was a very brief moment where someone claimed to be the successor of Robert Crossfield. He has since recanted.
GT 46:13 Oh.
Cristina 46:13 So there is no official successor to Robert Crossfield.
GT 46:17 Okay. And so, Robert Crossfield, did he stay in the Salem area?
Cristina 46:26 Yeah, it didn’t expand.
GT 46:28 He didn’t move to Canada?
Cristina 46:31 Oh, he does for a while.
GT 46:32 That’s what I thought. I thought he went to Canado. You don’t know.
Cristina 46:35 I don’t know the whole story about him.
2nd Book of Commandments
GT 46:40 Yeah. Okay. I have some fundamentalist friends. I’m sure you do, too, a Second Book of Commandments.
Cristina 46:55 That was Robert Crossfield.
GT 46:56 That’s what I thought.
Cristina 46:57 Yep. There’s a website 2bc.org?
GT 47:00 And I think it’s 2bc.info, if I remember, right.
Cristina 47:04 Even better.
GT 47:06 Because there are still adherents to the Second Book of Commandments. So, those are related to Robert Crossfield. So, it does seem like the group is kind of still around.
Cristina 47:16 I mean, in a very unorganized, it’s not in an organized fashion. There’s no prophet that I know of, and that could be new information to me. But, to my knowledge, there isn’t a leader of the Crossfield group or the School of the Prophets that officially claimed to be the successor of Crossfield. I know at Sunstone a few years ago, someone did make the claim to being the successor. But I know that that was, supposedly, recanted. I mean, I haven’t talked to him, so I can’t…
GT 47:48 Was he the one that got up and proclaimed he was a prophet?
Cristina 47:51 Yes.
GT 47:52 Okay.
Cristina 47:55 Don’t put my face nodding at that. I just don’t–because I looked so skeptical.
GT 48:01 One of the things I love about Lindsay is she’s like, “Prophets are a dime a dozen. I know so many of them.”
Cristina 48:06 One of the interesting things is that Jim Harmston also announced his claim at Sunstone.
GT 48:12 Oh, I didn’t know that. Oh, so we’ve got a long history.
Cristina 48:15 I only learned that from Anne Wilde.
GT 48:17 Oh, wow.
Cristina 48:18 Because, apparently, he had been like saying like, No, I’m not going to start a group. No, I’m not going to start a group. And then he announces it.
GT 48:25 At Sunstone.
Cristina 48:26 And I’m sure she was like…
GT 48:28 Hey…
Cristina 48:30 She is such a wealth of knowledge.
GT 48:32 Oh, I know she is.
Cristina 48:34 She’s such a wealth of knowledge of just the inner workings of the movement for that period of time that is…
GT 48:40 She’s, well like Ogden Kraut, she’s tied to everybody. And I know Christ Church, I mean, we did an episode with her and David Patrick, on the 50th anniversary of Jesus Was Married.
Cristina 48:56 Yup, I have a copy of that.
GT 48:57 Because they were like, oh, this is a great book. Everybody should read it. So, yeah, she’s amazing. Okay, so, that group is loosely still around.
Cristina 49:13 I mean, the documents are, but I don’t think it meets in like a formal group.
GT 49:18 Okay. Maybe I’ll have to contact them.
Addressing Polygamy Skeptics
GT 49:21 Do you know Jacob Vidrine?
Cristina 49:23 Yeah.
GT 49:24 I need to get him on.
Cristina 49:26 You need to get him on the show. I’m going to let him tell his story.
GT 49:32 Do you know what group he’s in?
Cristina 49:34 I’ll let him tell his story.
GT 49:35 You’ll let him tell, okay.
Cristina 49:36 No, I mean, there’s been so many moments where I’ve messaged him, and I’m like, do you happen to have this one meeting minute account from this one School of the Prophets meeting in 1860. But it happened to be under– and he’s like, yep.
GT 49:58 I do think he’s in a group or part of a group, because you know, the whole polygamy denier thing drives me batty.
Cristina 50:05 Oh, yeah. The big debate that they did.
GT 50:08 Oh, well, was he part of that debate?
Cristina 50:11 I mean, supposedly there was two. I only saw one the very first time that they debated each other. And I watched it.
GT 50:18 Oh, you did? I didn’t watch it.
Cristina 50:20 I watched it, because he told me that they were doing it. And I was just so interested, only because I think he’s so knowledgeable about the history. And if I were debating, I mean, the history I do is more recent, it’s not 19th century. And so, if I were debating the 19th century, I wouldn’t have felt confident going up against Jacob. So I was just…
GT 50:44 Interesting. I think there’s a new Facebook group that I just got invited to that talks about contemporary evidence for polygamy, and they’re trying to provide Nauvoo City Council minutes and things like that.
Cristina 50:57 It’s very hard to track a secret practice….
GT 51:01 Yeah.
Cristina 51:01 …it turns out. But Joseph Smith, I’m going to say it, Rick. He practiced polygamy.
GT 51:11 Not a newsflash here.
Cristina 51:14 Someone’s going to be upset.
GT 51:17 I’m sure.
Cristina 51:18 I just think yeah, I mean, I think…
GT 51:19 You’ll probably get something in the comments.
Cristina 51:22 Especially when I first learned about the Joseph Smith Fought Polygamy arguments, I think the part that was so–when I was like, “I don’t think this is true.” It was just so hard to wrap my head around, was the argument that Brigham Young actually wrote Doctrine & Covenants 132. Or that it was written and like that…
GT 51:50 I’ve heard it was a forgery, not that Brigham Young wrote it.
Cristina 51:52 Or that he had it written or that, like, it was found in like a shoebox. It was found in like a desk drawer or something.
GT 51:57 Well, probably. I mean the argument is, it’s not a legitimate thing. It’s not in Joseph’s hand.
Cristina 52:04 Well, of course, it’s not.
GT 52:05 Joseph didn’t write anything down. He didn’t even write the Book of Mormon down.
Cristina 52:08 Because we don’t have the original because it was destroyed. And then we do have the Kingsbury 132, because it’s hanging in the Church History Museum. It’s on the wall. It’s next to the death mask.
GT 52:21 Well, Emma burned the other one, right?
Cristina 52:23 Right. But it’s in the room right next to the death mask in the Church History Museum. So we do have the Kingsbury Edition or the Kingsbury…
GT 52:31 Well, the argument is he wasn’t a scribe. Why would [Kingsbury] have written it down? It’s a forgery.
Cristina 52:40 Correlation is causation. I don’t know. (Chuckling) But yeah, I’ve never [understood the argument.] I mean, I think my concern about it is you have to defend–first of all, the big question is, why do you need to make him not a polygamist? I think that’s a really interesting question.
GT 53:01 Oh, it’s a great question.
Cristina 53:02 Like, I think that’s the question that I’m most interested in when I talked to [Joseph fought polygamy people.]
GT 53:05 Because Joseph is not a liar. I’ve heard that so many times.
Cristina 53:08 Right. Well, that’s fine. I mean, he did though.
GT 53:14 A prophet would never lie.
Cristina 53:16 I mean, I think that’s the most fascinating question about the Joseph fought polygamy crowd is why do you need this to be the case about him? But secondarily, why are you willing to say that to defend one man as not a liar, at the detriment of saying all of these other people are? Like, it’s just so focused on vindicating this one person, that you’re willing to drag everyone. And that is a very strange way of telling history to me, especially with all the affidavits that we have.
GT 53:48 They’re late.
Cristina 53:49 Here’s the thing. Eliza R. Snow. I don’t think she’s lying about this. I do not think Eliza R. Snow is lying about polygamy. I don’t. I don’t think Eliza R. Snow is lying about it. And Elize R. Snow is ride or die for polygamy. Like if there’s ever a defender of the practice, it’s her. And I just really don’t think she’s lying about it. But the fact that propping up Joseph Smith, to the detriment of her, feels very strange to me. But I think the dire need to make him not a polygamist is fascinating. It’s just a fascinating story. That why do you need him to be a monogamist? I mean, I like monogamy, however. But I’m also not a part of the Restoration. I’m part of the non-restored gospel. So, yeah, I think that’s…
GT 54:45 You’re part of the original Christian church.
Cristina 54:49 We like to think so. The Orthodox are like, so are we.
GT 54:56 There was no apostasy.
Cristina 54:56 Yeah, no, I don’t think there was a great apostasy. Sorry, listeners, I just, I don’t, which is a faith claim, and we all have them, but I just don’t believe in that. Yeah, I do think the Joseph fought polygamy debate is one of the most interesting, current things happening in Mormonism. Especially because it’s something that’s happened so many times, historically, this is just the most recent iteration of trying to figure out if polygamy was from Joseph Smith. The RLDS went through that moment. They acknowledge he practiced polygamy now. But they are a monogamous church.
GT 54:58 They’re just a bunch of apostates, anyway.
{End of Part 3}
[3] It is called the Red Cliffs Temple.
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