In our final conversation we’ll talk about some other Mormon Fundamentalism groups and how the race ban & Word of Wisdom are viewed. I’ll also note that Cristina got married after this interview and moved to Canada! Her new last name is Gagliano. Check out our conversation…
Don’t miss our other conversations with Cristina: https://gospeltangents.com/people/cristina-rosetti
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Modern Mormon Fundamentalism
GT 00:32 Is there anything else we want to finish with Joseph Musser?
Cristina 00:39 The big thing that I hope people go away with is that people imagine fundamentalism being, like, old timey. Joseph Musser died in 1954. My mom was alive when Musser was. This is not old. This is a very recent separation. This is a very modern religion. That’s something that I’ve tried to drive home so much, is that the Mormon fundamentalist movement is just another way of being modern Mormon.
GT 01:06 It’s funny, because he’s clean shaven, too, on your cover there.
Cristina 01:09 Yeah, he looks like a Mormon.
GT 01:11 He looks like David O McKay, practically.
Cristina 01:13 I mean, maybe. Yeah, it’s a modern religion. It’s a modern form of Mormonism. It is not an…
GT 01:21 McKay was the first one to be clean shaven, first LDS prophet.
Cristina 01:24 You always see the pictures. Wasn’t he also the one that really kind of nailed down Word of Wisdom?
GT 01:31 No, that was Grant.
Cristina 01:35 As like a part of the temple recommend?
GT 01:36 Yeah.
Cristina 01:37 It was? Because Grant also did the ‘do you associate with people.’
GT 01:41 Right.
Cristina 01:42 Heber J. Grant, am I right?
GT 01:43 Yeah, yeah.
Cristina 01:45 Yeah, and that also makes sense, too, because fundamentalists don’t have the same vibe on the Word of Wisdom. I mean, I had a beer at Bee’s.
GT 01:56 You can get your Journal of Discourses and your beer and your wine right behind them.
Cristina 02:00 Yeah.
GT 02:00 I took a picture and there was a big Journal of Discourses and wine and beer right behind it.
Cristina 02:05 Yeah, I had a beer at Bees. No one else joined me. But I had a beer at Bee’s and it was totally normal and fine. It was so funny at Bee’s Market, because Bryan was wearing a John Y. Barlow shirt.
GT 02:18 Oh, that was hilarious. I hope he wears that for my interview. I’m going to get Bryan on.
Cristina 02:21 Brian was wearing a John Y. Barlow shirt and Brian went in to use the bathroom. He was going to go buy water for me and a few other people. I was ordering a beer. This little girl runs after him. It was so weird. The mom runs and gets her. One of the men at the table was like, “What happened?”
She was like, “Oh, she saw someone with John Y. on their shirt.”
The men were like, “Who was it?”
She was like, “I don’t know. Just some guy with John Y.”
Bryan comes out and he was like, “John Y. Barlow’s son is in there.” Now, for everyone, John Y. Barlow’s son or grandson, sorry, there are many.
GT 03:04 Yeah.
Cristina 03:05 It’s like when people are like, “Oh, I’m related to Rulon Allred.” You and the rest of the church. I mean, not really, but these people have big families. Everyone’s related.
GT 03:16 Right.
Cristina 03:17 But yeah, they don’t do the Word of Wisdom the same. A lot of them drink alcohol at church.
GT 03:24 Mild barley drinks are just fine.
Cristina 03:27 I was told that that actually means barley tea.
GT 03:31 Oh, I thought it was beer.
Cristina 03:33 Yeah, I know. Yeah. But an LDS person told me it was tea. Have you ever seen barley tea at the grocer?
GT 03:38 I’ve never heard that.
Cristina 03:38 No, it’s not real. It’s beer. I don’t know a lot of fundamentalists that will drink hard alcohol, routinely.
GT 03:46 Right. But wine is okay.
Cristina 03:49 Some will do it medicinally. A lot of fundamentalists use wine for church, for sacrament, wine of their own make. They’ll make it themselves, so it’s very low alcohol. But they will do that. Some will do hard alcohol medicinally; to make tinctures and stuff but I don’t know a lot that will just have a margarita on Tuesday. A lot will smoke tobacco.
GT 04:13 Oh, really? I thought it was just for sick cattle.
Cristina 04:15 It’s not cigarettes, but I have seen fundamentalists who smoke a pipe. I think some of the reason for that is like, I mean, Mormon…
GT 04:26 It wasn’t a commandment.
Cristina 04:27 Well, the Word of Wisdom, it’s not a commandment, certainly, it’s a guideline. But the other thing is there is kind of an interesting thing. The Word of Wisdom is really concerned with heat, like hot drinks. There are some people that will interpret that the problem with tobacco is the heat aspect. And with pipes, pipe smoke is cooler, because it goes through the pipe. And so there is some…
GT 04:47 It smells so much worse, though.
Cristina 04:49 Pipe tobacco?
GT 04:50 Yeah.
Cristina 04:52 Well, my fiancé who’s a pipe smoker is going to have something to say about this interview. (Both chuckling) I think it smells better than cigarettes.
GT 05:00 Yeah, I hate it.
Cristina 05:01 Cigarettes are gross-smelling.
GT 05:02 They’re both gross.
Cristina 05:03 No. Pipe tobacco smells like a tobacco candle. No, I think it smells fine.
GT 05:10 Maybe I’m just used to cigarettes because people don’t smoke pipes as much.
Cristina 05:13 I mean, I don’t smoke. I don’t smoke. You saw me buy two boxes of wine at Bees. I shouldn’t say that I bring alcohol across the border in an interview. It’s cheaper in Arizona.
GT 05:32 Because Utah taxes it too much. Is that it?
Cristina 05:34 It’s cheaper in Arizona, you don’t go to the liquor store. So, if I’m down there, I might as well go to Bees and get…
GT 05:39 Just go to the grocery store and get it, yeah.
Cristina 05:41 I do that.
GT 05:41 It’s everywhere, but Utah, right?
Cristina 05:44 Yeah, I’ve always done that. Don’t tell them by license number, or my plate number. But yeah, that’s very common. Also coffee. There’s Beans and Brews. There are many coffee shops.
GT 05:56 It was weird to me. They had self-checkout. Any teenager could go buy a beer and wine.
Cristina 06:05 I was not carded.
GT 06:06 That was weird.
Cristina 06:11 I don’t know. I don’t know. But, yeah they drink–the Word of Wisdom doesn’t mention coffee explicitly, or tea. It says hot drinks. What’s a hot drink?
GT 06:20 The Community of Christ just says, “Let it cool. It’s fine. Coffee’s fine.”
Cristina 06:25 I’m drinking an iced coffee right now. So, I’m very compliant to the letter of the law, not the spirit, but certainly the letter of the law. Yeah, because what is a hot drink? Fundamentalists generally look at it as it’s good sound advice. You shouldn’t be an alcoholic. But have a beer. It’s fine. You’ll be okay. There’s a very different culture around alcohol and coffee, certainly, in southern Utah in any fundamentalist community. You’ve been to Short Creek.
GT 06:58 No, that was my first time.
Cristina 06:59 Oh, and you saw all the coffee, the alcohol.
GT 07:01 Yeah.
Cristina 07:02 There’s a brewery. It’s fine.
GT 07:05 Joseph had one.
Cristina 07:06 Joseph had one. It’s fine. I mean, Brigham did. Well, Brigham had the distillery.
GT 07:11 I didn’t know that.
Cristina 07:13 Well, a little tiny crack in the history. But he also had the Utah wine mission.
GT 07:20 Right, but that was for the sacrament. (Chuckling)
Cristina 07:22 With a wink and a nod, but that was a that was a big–when is [it in] the D&C about water?
GT 07:37 I can’t remember.[1]
Cristina 07:38 That’s before Brigham’s wine mission. Or no?
GT 07:43 No, it’s after, I’m pretty sure.
Cristina 07:45 Isn’t it because an angel told them not to drink the wine?
GT 07:49 I don’t know that story very well.
Cristina 07:50 Because it was like poisoned or something? I don’t, either, but I have no reason to. Why water in church?
How Race Ban Enters Fundamentalism
GT 08:00 Let’s jump on the other things. But before we do, is there anything else on Musser you want to mention before we move on to other topics?
Cristina 08:10 No, I just want people recognize that there are significant intellectual contributions to Mormonism [from people who] aren’t members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. There are people. I can’t stress it enough that modern Mormonism is so multifaceted, and that the modern LDS Church became that in opposition to something. It was the renegade Mormons in southern Utah, who were for a brief period–they weren’t giving the LDS Church a run for their money in terms of numbers. But when people were getting excommunicated, they had a soft place to land. That was threatening. Reading through the 1930s period with an eye toward it, especially things like Heber J. Grant’s comment of, “Do you associate with people against the Church?” He was talking about certain people. He was talking about the polygamists.
GT 08:11 Right. We’ve always known that was about the polygamists. Sometimes I joke around like, ah, the boy scouts. (Chuckling)
Cristina 08:53 The Catholics. In the 1930s, there’s a lot happening. It’s a lot of different Mormonisms figuring out what’s going on. I hope this book lets people realize that there’s a lot of men vying for a very particular place and trying to figure out what is modern Mormonism going to be?
GT 09:30 Yeah. Well want to move past Musser’s lifetime just a little bit and talk a little bit. We’ve got the AUB. They incorporate in 1979, which is an interesting year because that’s right after 1978.
Cristina 09:50 It is right after 1978. What happens then, Rick? Can you tell us more?
GT 09:53 We have the revelation that allows blacks to go to the temple and get priesthood now.
Cristina 10:00 Rick’s putting a line in the sand calling it a revelation.
GT 10:03 It was a revelation. What do you mean a line in the sand?
Cristina 10:05 Well, because if you’re a fundamentalist, you wouldn’t say that.
GT 10:07 Oh.
Cristina 10:08 So, I’ll just say the Rick’s making a statement.
GT 10:09 I’ve never claimed to be a Fundamentalist.
Cristina 10:11 No, I know. I know.
GT 10:17 Because it was funny talking with Joe Jessop. He says there are three pillars of fundamentalism: polygamy, Adam-God, and the race ban. Now, that wasn’t a deal in the 1950s, when Joseph Musser died, so he didn’t really talk about it.
Cristina 10:36 No. I wrote an article on this. It’s called, Not Until the Millennium, which is a quote from Rulon Allred. Because Rulon Allred is the first time people start talking about it.
GT 10:48 Is that because of 1978?
Cristina 10:53 It’s a little before 1978. But I make the argument, I hope compellingly. I mean, certain fundamentalists have found it compelling and have found it interesting that I argue that Mormon Fundamentalists did not care about that until the LDS Church started to think about getting rid of it.
GT 11:11 Right.
Cristina 11:12 Again, that is the whole thing that fundamentalism is. It’s only a fundamental, if there’s people being modern. If everyone believes Adam is God, you’re not special if you do. If everyone’s practicing polygamy, you’re not special, if you do. You only get to be a fundamentalist if there’s people conceding to modernity. And so, the race thing, when it wasn’t an issue, it wasn’t an issue. Suddenly, it becomes one and now it becomes a fundamental. It’s not a fundamental when everyone believes it. It doesn’t need to be. And so, Joseph Musser doesn’t talk. I mean, Joseph Musser goes down to the Southern States Mission. He talks about seeing black people. I mean, does he ordain them? I mean, he doesn’t say that. I mean, he doesn’t. Right? He’s not going to. But he doesn’t say anything. He just talks about that there’s African American churches in the south, because that certainly isn’t happening in his neighborhood in Salt Lake City.
GT 12:09 Well, and they’re not joining the Church in the south, especially, either.
Cristina 12:11 Right. And it’s just a non-[issue.] Certainly, I do want to be clear that there were people making racist claims in the 30s, 40s, 50s. But they were very standard racism of the 1930s, 40s ,50s. There were some comments about the priesthood ban, about priesthood being for white people, because Brigham Young said so. But it wasn’t a fundamental of the gospel until the LDS Church decided it wasn’t.
Ervil LeBaron Kills Rulon Allred
GT 12:46 Yeah. It’s really interesting. Rulon gets shot in 1977 by one of Ervil LeBaron’s wives. Right? Ervil LeBaron was going after everybody. I need to get LeBaron person on one of these days. because somebody said that the LeBaron’s are fine. Was it you? Except for Ervil LeBaron.
Cristina 13:10 This is a sweeping statement, because there’s going to be a quote somewhere. The Lebaron’s are fine.
GT 13:17 Except for Ervil.
Cristina 13:18 No, I mean, I’m saying that there that there are many forms of the LeBaron’s. Ervil LeBaron is a bad man.
GT 13:24 Right.
Cristina 13:25 Ervil LeBaron is a bad man. But there are many LeBaron churches. There are many LeBaron groups.
GT 13:34 And they don’t kill people.
Cristina 13:35 I do that think it’s an unfortunate reality that LeBaron-ism has been associated with Ervil, when there are other LeBaron’s that are just trying to live their life and be polygamous Mormons in Mexico and Utah and just doing their thing. I would say that that’s my claim is that LeBaron is a bad man, bad man. But there are LeBaron’s–and not everyone whose last name is LeBaron is part of this religion. And so, I think there’s an unfortunate conflation that has caused a lot of people with this name and with this tradition to be associated with him wrongly. So, that’s what I meant.
Gerald Peterson’s Vision of Rulon Allred
GT 14:11 Ok. Rulon Allred dies in 1977. I don’t know if we want to call this succession crisis, but I know Gerald Peterson takes it upon [himself,] well, from my point of view. I have lots of Peterson friends, but from my point of view…
Cristina 14:31 There’s a lot of fudging of what’s about to be said.
GT 14:32 Yeah. Gerald Peterson, in April of 1978, two months before the LDS revelation on priesthood, he proclaims himself leader.
Cristina 14:47 How does he do it?
GT 14:50 Well, maybe I should ask you because I’m not entirely sure.
Cristina 14:51 Oh, it’s great story.
GT 14:53 Oh, well, go ahead. You know better than I do.
Cristina 14:56 Well, I mean, he, for the AUB, the Apostolic United Brethren would say that Owen Allred succeeds Rulon.
GT 15:04 His brother.
Cristina 15:04 His brother, and that’s the story. Now after that, there’s some question about Lynn Thompson versus LaMoine Jensen, that’s fine. But Owen Allred takes it over. Gerald Peterson, Sr, there is a sense of the story where people said that he had been ordained by Rulon, previously. I haven’t seen documentation for that. But the story from Gerald, Sr., is that he was in his office one day. Rulon appeared to him as an exalted messenger, similar to Moroni and ordains him with the keys to continue the work. When that story comes up today, a lot of members of the group today talk about how he was ordained in life, that there was a precedent and then this was a confirmation of the ordination from beyond the veil. I want to be clear that this story of a beyond the veil ordination is not unique to the Peterson group. The TLC has this story. A lot of people have similar stories to this. But, it’s Rulon Allred who supposedly appears to Gerald, Sr. and ordains him to do the work. That creates the split between what becomes the Righteous Branch and what is the AUB. A lot of people who joined the Righteous Branch early are people who were AUB. Now, later after that, people will look back on Owen’s leadership and kind of note certain things that happened under Owen Allred as a validation for why Gerald, Sr. was the one that actually did have the keys. But that is the Peterson story.
GT 16:42 Okay, and they’re still a pretty small group. AUB is way bigger. They just went with Owen Allred.
Cristina 16:51 Narrow is the gate, Rick. I say that as a member of a 1.3-billion-person religion.
GT 16:59 (Chuckling) So, I’m trying to remember, because there’s the Nielsen Naylor group, and I’m not an expert on them at all. How do they fit in with this, too? Because they’re a break off.
Cristina 17:12 They break from Centennial.
GT 17:13 Oh, they break from Centennial.
Cristina 17:16 I don’t know the reasons. I don’t know the reasons for that.
Partial Summary of AUB/FLDS Group Schisms
GT 17:20 Okay. So, to recap, we’ve got the Allred/Jeffs split in 1954.
Cristina 17:33 What I’m calling the 1950s Priesthood Split.
GT 17:37 Then in 1984, Centennial Park breaks from FLDS. FLDS don’t formally incorporate until 1991.
Cristina 17:51 They’re still called The Work.
GT 17:52 Okay. So they’re The Work until as late as 1991. Wow.
Cristina 17:56 Yes.
GT 17:57 And so Centennial Park breaks with FLDS over one man rule. Then AUB incorporates in 1979, because they don’t trust the LDS revelation on priesthood.
Cristina 18:13 And later, there also is an increased concern about early changes to the endowment. That is a secondary issue. The big issue is the priesthood ban, for sure, to be clear, that is an issue.
GT 18:28 According to the AUB, allowing black people in a temple has now defiled the temple.
Cristina 18:34 And it was apostasy.
GT 18:35 Yeah. Because they were just fine with LDS temples until 1978. And now…
Cristina 18:43 Because the temple is a priesthood matter. It is it is owned by the Church, but it’s a priesthood matter, because the ordinances that are happening and there are priesthood ordinances that are eternal. Whereas the Church is, again, just keeping the lights on. The problem is when you change anything related to priesthood, that big divide between the priesthood and the Church, when you start changing–well you can change the Church all you want, but you can’t change priesthood matters.
GT 19:11 Okay.
Cristina 19:12 So, ordinations, sealings, endowment.
GT 19:14 Did AUB have an endowment house before 1979?
Cristina 19:20 That’s when they start doing it.
GT 19:24 Now the LDS Church is officially in apostasy and they have to build their own temples now.
Cristina 19:28 That is a unique reality. Because of men like Musser, because of how that line forms, because the AUB does get a lot of LDS converts, especially after the priesthood and temple ban is lifted, the AUB side, the Musser side is the side that has temples or has endowment houses or has things like that. The FLDS did not have temples until Warren does his nonsense. But that was not part of the tradition.
GT 20:01 Okay.
Cristina 20:01 Of course, people like Warren, leaders will often say that people aren’t righteous enough to have a temple, things like that. The Lord will reveal it in time. But there also is a historic sociological reality that the group that had the men who had all the ordinances are going to have the ordinances.
GT 20:18 Okay.
Cristina 20:20 Because I mean, we don’t have any evidence that Barlow had his second anointing. Barlow was excommunicated right after his mission. He’s not living an LDS life in the same way Joseph Musser is. We don’t have Barlow’s diaries in full. So, we’re waiting. It’s a waiting game.
GT 20:38 We don’t have them because they don’t exist?
Cristina 20:41 I mean, I’m sure they’re in family hands or something. But they haven’t been circulated in the same way.
GT 20:49 Okay. Then Nielsen/Naylor, you said broke off from Centennial Park. Do you know approximately when?
Cristina 20:56 No, I don’t know a lot about them at all.
GT 20:57 Okay. I’ve got to talk to my friend, Cyrus, about that, I guess.
Cristina 21:02 He would know.
GT 21:03 He’s really been trying to get me to go. Because they’re in Bluffdale, too.
Cristina 21:07 They are. They also have a presence in Idaho. I think, and in Logan, is that true?
GT 21:11 I don’t know. Cyrus keeps talking to me about it. I need to…
Cristina 21:16 Go.
GT 21:16 …learn more about it.
Cristina 21:17 You should go!
GT 21:18 But I’m excited because I just met the [leader.] Is it Dave Watson?
Cristina 21:24 Yeah.
GT 21:24 [I met him] last week, so hopefully, we might follow you up with him. We’ll see.
Cristina 21:30 Where did you [meet him?] How did [you meet him?] I mean, you can tell me later. But yeah, he’s the guy when Thompson passed.
GT 21:36 Steve Mayfield was buried in Rocky Ridge, and he attended the burial. He might have been at the funeral. I didn’t see him at the funeral. But I saw him at the burial for sure.
Cristina 21:49 I mean, I guess that is his community.
GT 21:51 Cemetery plots are cheaper in Rocky Ridge than they are in Layton.
Cristina 21:55 Yeah, I was just wondering if you’re about to do a big reveal about Steve Mayfield’s religious [connections.]
GT 22:02 I always thought it was funny, because Steve’s a police officer and he’s friends with a bunch of polygamists. I was like, hmm. So, it shows we don’t prosecute polygamists anymore.
Cristina 22:12 And he had the president of the priesthood at his burial.
GT 22:14 Yeah. Big deal.
Cristina 22:17 Dave Watson/Brother Dave came to the book launch event that I did at Benchmark, which was great. I mean, he was so kind about it. He was so kind about the book. He also came to MHA the first time I talked about the book at MHA in 2021. He had some, One of the longstanding questions with Joseph White Musser is, his early records in the LDS Church, say Saint Joseph White Musser. His funeral records don’t say that. His funeral record just says Joseph White Musser. And so, there was this interesting question of, why do his church record say Saint? That’s not something LDS people do. He said that that was the name given to him at his baby blessing. His dad stood up and said, ‘Saint.”
GT 23:20 Oh, really?
Cristina 23:21 Yeah. Can you imagine the Church Historian, Amos Moulton Musser named his child Saint Joseph White Musser? That would be the name he was given at his baby blessing. It was on the Church records, but it wasn’t his legal name, which was an interesting thing that happened.
GT 23:38 Like, St. George.
Cristina 23:40 Yeah, and so I know that because I thought it was like an honorific maybe. But Brother Dave is the reason that I know that. He’s been very supportive. The AUB Archive that they’re building out and working on with Marianne and the other people has been…
GT 23:57 And Steve just donated his records there, too.
Cristina 23:59 I mean, it’s been, I’m really impressed with the way they’re building out their archive. Bryan and I met with them, because we’re doing the diaries. The back cover says Deseret Historical Archives, because they gave me the picture, the high resolution image of Joseph for the cover of the book. This is courtesy of the Apostolic United Brethren. They are the ones that have the rights to this. It’s on the back. It says their archive. I was really, very grateful, because I only had a low resolution [picture,] and they had the high-res image. So that was really kind of them to offer. So, I’m really impressed with what they’re doing up there.
GT 24:37 Yeah. Very good. All right. Well, I think that brings us up at the modern day. Is there anything else? Do you know anything about the Thompson group or any of those other ones?
Cristina 24:48 The Joe Thompson group?
GT 24:50 Yeah.
Cristina 24:50 You can have a Joe Thompson-ite on for that story. There’s a lot of them. People are moving out. People are moving to Missouri.
GT 24:56 Moroni Jessop talked a little bit about it, because he was part of the Thompson group for a little bit.
Cristina 25:01 Yeah, we talked about it. We did a Sunstone presentation on the racial restrictions, the temple ban. Will fundamentalists, will they not? Will they ever lift it? Will they not? I would be surprised. I mean Rulon Allred very specifically said, “Not until the Millennium.” Rulon said not until the Millennium when all the sons of Abel receive the priesthood.
GT 25:22 Well, that’s what Brigham said. He must have been quoting Brigham.
Cristina 25:24 Probably. I’ve heard that from young members of various groups. I can’t imagine. But I think Moroni is doing great work on that front. Then, of course, there are many groups that emerge without any connection, like the TLC. We just we do get groups that just emerge out of what seems to be the ether. But they have some claim in some regard.
GT 25:51 I’ll have to get your contact list so I can contact them.
Cristina 25:53 Or like the LeBaron group, which goes back to Benjamin F. Johnson, which is not related to the Woolley-ite at all. Or the Kingston group going back to Eldon, which is not related at all to the Woolley group, even though they considered joining the Woolley group for a while, but they didn’t. [There are] multiple stories about why they didn’t. But everyone has a different perspective on why they didn’t join. So, there are groups that are standalone. The LeBaron’s and the Kingston’s are the two biggest. That amounts for just the diversity of the fundamentalist movement. Then you have that guy that wore bell bottoms.
GT 26:31 Greg Brady? No, I don’t know.
Cristina 26:33 No, the guy that wore bell bottoms. Joseph? He did the Confederate States of Zion or something.
GT 26:41 I don’t know who that is. You’re the polygamy expert, not me.
Cristina 26:43 Oh, no. He was a polygamist. Oh, no. Hold on. [Typing into her phone:] Confederate Zion Mormon. Oh no. know. If I type in Joseph Mormon, that’s not coming up. But yeah, there was like a 1970s hippie-ish, Alex Joseph.
GT 26:44 Who is he?
Cristina 26:45 He founded the Confederate Nations of Israel. He was the mayor of Big Water. He was the first Libertarian Party mayor of a community in the United States. He was a Mormon fundamentalist and he wore bell bottoms. I don’t know why I’m so fixated on the bell bottom thing. I’ll show you a picture and you’ll tell me, you’ll be like, yeah, you’re not wrong. But he was a Mormon fundamentalist libertarian in Utah. See this picture.
GT 27:41 Oh, wow. Yeah, those are bell bottoms, for sure. He does look like a hippie.
Cristina 27:50 So yeah, I mean, there’s also groups like that spring up. But yeah, it’s a diverse movement. The biggest traces themselves to the Council. But other than that, that’s the interesting thing about Mormon priesthood. If everyone has it, there is no substantial difference between your priesthood and Russell Nelson’s, other than your ability to exercise certain aspects of it. But the priesthood is the same.
GT 28:22 Right.
Cristina 28:23 Who’s to say that Rick Bennett…
GT 28:27 Well, when you have an angel come to you, who’s to say?
Cristina 28:29 I mean, who’s to say that you don’t have all the keys? It’s just a matter of time. But that is the compelling thing about Mormonism. I mentioned, the priesthood is chaotic. How do you make sure that it’s not chaotic?
GT 28:49 One-man rule. (Chuckling)
Cristina 28:52 It turns out really well.
GT 28:56 All right. Anything else you want to add before I let you go?
Cristina 28:59 I don’t know. I think that’s it. Buy the book from Benchmark, etc.
GT 29:05 Joseph White Musser: a Mormon Fundamentalist. You can get it a Benchmark, Amazon, and all the good places.
Cristina 29:12 It’s on Kindle now, too.
GT 29:13 Oh, yeah, do you read it?
Cristina 29:15 Did I read it?
GT 29:16 For the Kindle?
Cristina 29:18 No, I don’t.
GT 29:19 Is it an audiobook or no?
Cristina 29:21 No audio. I don’t think anyone wants me to read. {She starts reading…} “Fundamentally the earth with all its contents belongs to God. It is his heritage…”
Cristina 29:31 I don’t think people want me to read this. You don’t want me to read this. Yeah, you can buy it at Benchmark, Amazon, anywhere books are sold, Barnes and Noble, weird.
GT 29:39 Costco?
Cristina 29:39 We’re going to try to get it into Bees.
GT 29:45 Oh, nice. Yeah, it’ll probably sell pretty good there. All right. Well, Dr. Cristina Rosetti, congratulations on your betrothal. I found out that was different than a regular engagement. It’s actually a ceremony. I’ll have to see if I can get a picture from you. We’re going to miss you here being in St. George. Are you going to MHA in June?
Cristina 30:10 No.
GT 30:11 That’s a bummer. All right.
Cristina 30:13 I am one of the program chairs, though.
GT 30:16 Oh, well, we hope that you’ll retire like Michael Jordan and do it three times or something, because we’d love to have you here in Mormon Studies. We appreciate all the great work you’ve done.
Cristina 30:30 Thanks so much, Rick. Thanks for all the great work you do with having such a diverse podcast and doing so much for the study of Mormonism. Thank you.
GT 30:39 Well, thanks.
[1] The use of water in the sacrament (communion) is specifically tied to Doctrine and Covenants 27. This section of scripture indicates that it doesn’t matter what is eaten or drunk during the sacrament, as long as it is done with a focus on the Lord and remembering His sacrifice. While the initial revelation to Joseph Smith mentioned wine, the church later adopted the practice of using water, partly due to concerns about the availability and safety of wine in the early days of the church. D&C 27 was received in August of 1830.
On 5 July 1906, the First Presidency and Council of the Twelve began using water instead of wine for their sacrament meetings. Congregations then followed suit. By 1915, President Joseph F. Smith instructed that no one was to be ordained to the priesthood or given temple recommends without adherence. See https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Mormon_ordinances/Sacrament/Method_of_administration#:~:text=On%205%20July%201906%2C%20the,given%20temple%20recommends%20without%20adherence.
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