We’re continuing our discussion about the Phoenicia Ship. Heartlanders think Lehi’s ship was built similarly. Mike & Betty LaFontaine were instrumental in purchasing the ship and shipping it back to Iowa for re-construction. We’ll learn more about how they did that, what they did when the ship sank, and more! Mike & Betty are both Native Americans, and Betty will share her experience in the Indian Placement Program as a young girl. Check out our conversation…
Copyright © 2022
Gospel Tangents
All Rights Reserved
Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.
Indian Placement Program
Interview
GT 00:29 Welcome to Gospel Tangents. We’re continuing our series on the Heartland model of the Book of Mormon. We’ve got two amazing guests. Mike, can you go ahead and tell us who you are, and where you’re from?
Mike 00:41 I’m Mike LaFontaine. I am part Chippewa from the Turtle Mountain clan. My mother is also Swedish, which is pretty awesome. Betty and I live in Florida, at this time.
GT 00:54 What part of Florida?
Mike 00:55 Northeast Florida. It’s a secluded area, well-protected and fortified.
GT 01:01 Okay, and you are?
Betty 01:04 I’m Betty “Redant” LaFontaine, [speaks Navajo.] I’m Betty Reddit LaFontaine. I come from the Diné Nation, the Navajo Nation. I am Red Clay Bottom clan, Born for the Salt clan, Towering House Peoples on my grandfather’s [side,] Bitter Water People are my grandmother’s. And that’s how I am Diné Navajo.
GT 01:35 Bitter Water People?
Betty 01:37 Bitter Water People.
GT 01:38 Why are they called Bitter Water People?
Betty 01:40 It’s the area that they’re from. So, the clanship goes for the area that they’re from. Then they adopt it from their relatives.
GT 01:47 And it was a bunch of bitter water?
Betty 01:49 Yeah. I’m sure there was.
Mike 01:51 And Towering House and Clay Bottom and Salt.
Betty 01:54 Yeah. So, it was the area that they’re from and then they acquired those names from their grandparents and parents.
GT 02:03 Now did you both grow up in Florida or you just live there now?
Mike 02:06 My ancestors, my grandparents moved off the reservation early on and went to the cities to work. So, they became urban Indians.
GT 02:15 Where?
Mike 02:16 In Minnesota, the Twin Cities.
GT 02:18 Okay.
Mike 02:19 They moved down from the Turtle Mountain Reservation.
GT 02:22 Okay.
Betty 02:24 And I’m from the Four Corners area in New Mexico, Crown Point, New Mexico.
Mike 02:30 She was on placement program for eight years, at least.
Betty 02:36 Yeah, seven, eight years in Utah.
Mike 02:39 I grew up in Florida, and my parents decided to move west. So, I followed the dinner table. And I ended up in Spanish Fork, where Betty was a placement student.
Betty 02:51 That’s where we met.
Mike 02:52 This is where I was trapped.
GT 02:53 (Chuckling) You were trapped in Utah. I wasn’t going to talk about the Indian Placement Program. But since you mentioned it, was that a good experience for you?
Betty 03:04 It was for me. It was an awesome experience. It was almost like a life-saving experience, actually.
GT 03:10 Oh, really?
Betty 03:10 Yeah. Because I came from a poverty-stricken home. And with the different dysfunction in the people, in families and alcoholism and whatnot. My mom wanted a better life for us. And they couldn’t provide for us that were there. There were, like, eight to nine of us, at one time 11. But yeah, and she was very strong in the gospel. And she really wanted a better life for us. And she couldn’t offer that for us. And that’s why we went. But I’m thankful, truly thankful for it, because it was a testimony-building experience, one that I can’t ever forget and put behind in my life because it was a great experience for me.
GT 04:04 Because I’ve heard some people have good experiences, some people don’t. Can you identify with those that don’t have a good experience?
Betty 04:13 Kind of, because the traditional culture of the Navajo people is very strong. And it’s very family oriented. And when you leave your family, you kind of almost look like you’re deserting your family. But I didn’t look at it that way. The cultural differences, the traditions, and the way of life was much different than this mainstream society that we live in now. And some of the kids could not adapt to it. And I don’t know, but I did. I was blessed to adapt right into the family unit, and I just loved it. I feel like it’s, I mean, literally, I feel like it saved my life to where I am today. I have a successful family. It’s not perfect, but I have an eternal family. I have an eternal family and it’s gospel centered. And that’s always been an important part of my life, and a very important part to my mom, because she came from a very traditional upbringing, with the medicine man and so forth. And she changed her life to embrace the gospel of Jesus Christ. And she was very strong in her belief. She, actually, it’s almost like breaking the chain. You’re not really away from the people, but your belief system is different. But, yet I can’t explain it. Yet, it’s the same, because we all pray to the same God, the Great Spirit. So even before she was introduced to the Church, she had that. And we had that. Prayer was a very important part of our lives, everyday lives, three times a day prayer. And it was a very special part, and we knew who our creator was. And we were always strong in that belief. And we believe that we came from the east direction and those kinds of things. So, it was very family oriented, our family, on the reservation. It was very family oriented, and we’re a matriarchal society.
GT 06:18 So, was that tough adapting to? Because LDS are very patriarchal.
Betty 06:23 No, no, I didn’t really look at it that way, because I respected the priesthood. And I knew, not necessarily where my place was, but I knew there that God set up everything. It goes right straight to him. He’s a priesthood holder. He’s the hierarchy and we go, and we respect him. I don’t know how to explain it. But it’s just a reverence I have for the priesthood. And I had no issues with that at all.
GT 06:57 So, did you grow up in the church prior to the Indian Placement Program?
Betty 07:01 I was actually baptized at age 10, so that I could participate in it, because you have to be baptized first.
GT 07:08 Oh, I didn’t know that. And so, did you have a strong testimony, or did you do it just so that you could participate?
Betty 07:17 Well, actually, as children and going to school, we were good readers. We excelled in our English because English was our second language. My mom didn’t have any kind of education as far as reading or anything. And so, we would read to her the Book of Mormon. And that’s how I got my testimony, too. After we read to her, she would vision at night. And she said it was almost like watching a movie and seeing Lehi’s family and seeing all the stuff that the families go through to be here in this promised land, America.
Is Book of Mormon history of Navajo People?
GT 07:57 So, is the Book of Mormon a history of the Navajo people, would you say?
Betty 08:02 The Book of Mormon is a history of the Lamanites that live here in North America.
GT 08:06 Would you consider yourself a Lamanite?
Betty 08:08 Oh, yes.
Mike 08:09 Yes, we do.
Betty 08:09 We do. I consider myself a Lamanite. I knew I was a Lamanite after reading the Book of Mormon. I could identify with the stories. And that’s where my mom saw us as Lamanites of that book, and that Lehi is our father. He is our ancestor. And he brought our people here to North America. And with this east direction thing, which we pray every day as the sun rises, to the east direction, to give honor and prayers to our Creator. And that’s done in the east direction because he came and left in the east direction. And he’s going to be coming back again, in the east direction, is what we believe. So that’s the respect and reverence that we have for him is that story of the East.
GT 09:03 Very interesting. And forgive me because I don’t know a lot about Native American culture. But I remember when I was growing up, we would always hear that Quetzalcoatl was the great white God that came across the waters. Is that something that you grew up hearing that story? Is that part of Navajo culture?
Betty 09:24 Actually, I had never heard of that. That I didn’t hear until later years from South America.
GT 09:30 Is that more of an Aztec thing, do you think?
Betty 09:31 Yeah, South America. And that’s where I heard about it.
Mike 09:35 I heard about it when I was young, definitely. But, “Other sheep I have that are out of this fold.”[1] He visited, I believe, all over the world. The 10 Lost Tribes, the City of Enoch, everywhere.
GT 09:48 The history of Mormons and Native Americans has a lot of good and bad things. I interviewed Darren Parry. He’s of the Shoshone Tribe. He used to be the Chief of the Northwestern [Band of the] Shoshone tribe, and of course, there was the Bear River Massacre, which was twice as bad as the Mountain Meadows Massacre. And I think very few Mormons are aware of either Mountain Meadows or Bear River. Did you have any stories growing up as a Native American, about the bad white man or anything like that?
Betty 10:27 Never, never.
Mike 10:29 Other than the long walk.
Betty 10:30 There was a long walk with the Navajo people, where the government was herding them up and putting them in at Vasco De Redondo, which is in New Mexico, in a prison camp.
GT 10:44 Oh, my.
Betty 10:45 Yeah, and a lot of them were starving. They wanted them off their lands. They wanted to take their land. And yeah, there’s pretty much history all around about in the United States and in pretty much the world. You know, if you look at it that way.
GT 11:04 Yeah. Trail of Tears.
Betty 11:05 There’s those stories.
Mike 11:07 You don’t have to look far.
Betty 11:10 My heart is hurt by it, but it’s not burdened by it. I mean, look at the Book of Mormon, what happened there. So, it’s a way of reflecting and coming out stronger, and forgiving. And that’s a big, huge part of it. Our Savior died for us so that we could do that. And it is not simple. But there’s no growth in holding those burdens.
Mike 11:44 Live for the future. Don’t forget the past, but what can you do about the past? Absolutely nothing. You can’t change it. You can’t alter it, all you can do is sit there and wallow in it. So, live for the future. That’s what you can change. That’s where the magic happens.
Betty 12:02 And my focus is helping those that can’t help themselves, blessing the lives of others, both of us. We serve wherever we can, in any capacity. And that’s what our Savior wants us to do. And you can’t lose by doing that. And that’s where my testimony is, to forget–not forget, but to just lay those things aside, and go on, forgive, and move on. Because there’s more good that you can do by forgiving.
GT 12:36 Do you go back to the reservation very much and see your family?
Betty 12:39 Yes, I do.
GT 12:41 Have things gotten better, since you were a young child?
Betty 12:45 You know, we were driving through there not too long ago. When was it?
Mike 12:48 A week and a half ago.
Betty 12:50 A week and a half ago, and it’s been what, 50 years since I’ve been, like, living there. And there’s really not that much change. And it’s really sad. I mean, there’s a few grocery stores and a gas station here and there.
GT 13:06 Better hospitals.
Betty 13:08 Better hospitals and better schools. But the housing that the government provides, and the people–it’s just, to me, it’s really sad. It breaks my heart to see that happening. But they’re happy, that’s the way they want to live. And I respect that. And I love them. And it’s just, day to day struggle for a lot of them because living on the reservation, you’re not able to be an entrepreneur. You can’t own a store, a grocery store, a business.
GT 13:41 Why not?
Betty 13:42 Because the Indian government and the government. It’s land in trust from the government, that the Indians live on. It’s not their land. And so, they have to go through all these channels to be able to have a business. And some of those channels are political. So, it’s sad.
GT 14:02 So, they have to get a lot of special permissions in order to own a business, basically?
Betty 14:06 Right. There’s a lot of red tape. You’ve got to know that the tribal president’s son or his daughter or his best friend, or that sort of thing. Mainstream society is pretty much the same in the political world, you know.
Mike 14:20 They’ve acquired the white man’s way quite easily.
GT 14:23 Wow.
Betty 14:24 So, it’s sad, but I believe Mike and I right now are in a position where we can help the people. We’re getting there. And that’s always been my lifelong dream to be able to give back and the Lord’s going to–we’ve left that up to the Lord. And I think we’re getting closer, especially with this Phoenicia.
GT 14:52 We’re going to go there in just a second. So Mike, you said your mom is Swedish. Is that right?
Mike 14:56 Yes.
GT 14:56 So, you didn’t grow up on a reservation or did you?
Mike 14:59 No, I’m considered an urban Indian. That’s what we are now. We’re off the reservation. We’re urban Indians.
GT 15:05 Was there a big cultural difference as you guys were dating or anything, or did you feel right at home?
Mike 15:10 When you’re in love, there’s no cultural differences. Even if there’s a language problem, that’s still not a problem. Right?
GT 15:20 And so, you grew up in Minnesota. Is that where you grew up?
Mike 15:22 No, I grew up in Florida.
GT 15:23 Oh, in Florida.
Mike 15:23 My dad moved down to Florida.
Betty 15:26 When he was born.
Mike 15:27 Yeah. And then later in life…
GT 15:28 So, you were born in Minnesota and then moved to Florida, okay.
Mike 15:30 Yeah, and then out to Utah.
GT 15:32 How did you get out to Utah to meet Betty?
Mike 15:35 My dad was a Merchant Marine, so he can go live anywhere.
GT 15:38 Merchant Marine? There are no oceans in Utah.
Mike 15:41 No, but every time he goes, they fly him to a different port in the world, so he didn’t have to be by a port. He was hitchhiking across the country, back home in the late 70s, early 70s, and said, “Hey, let’s move out West. It looks great.” He went through here at nighttime. So, we packed up and moved out here.
GT 16:04 So, how long did you live in Utah?
Mike 16:06 Quite a while. I got here, between Colorado, and Utah, I got here when I was 16 and stayed here, met Betty, got married and we moved.
Betty 16:18 We lived there five years after we got married, then we moved. So yeah, it was hard for me. It was a huge adjustment.
GT 16:25 Living here in Utah?
Betty 16:27 No, living in Florida.
GT 16:28 In Florida.
Betty 16:29 Yeah. That was a pretty big adjustment.
GT 16:31 Yeah. Because one, you’ve got the humidity.
Betty 16:34 Oh, gosh. Yeah.
Mike 16:36 The gators.
Betty 16:36 I’m still getting used to that.
Mike 16:39 Yeah, you never get used to the humidity.
Betty 16:40 [It’s been] 32, 33 years now, later, it’s still hard.
Mike 16:46 For the first 10 years, it wasn’t home. But now when she talks about home, “I’m going to go home.” Florida is home.
Betty 16:53 Yeah, Florida is home.
GT 16:55 And then, because you guys just–did the hurricane hit you recently or no?
Mike 16:59 No, very little wind. Very little rain.
Betty 17:01 We didn’t even get a rain drop.
GT 17:03 Oh, where are you in Florida?
Mike 17:05 Northeast Florida, North Central Florida.
GT 17:07 Northcentral. Is that by Tampa?
Mike 17:09 It’s between Jacksonville and Tallahassee.
GT 17:12 Kind of by the Panhandle.
Mike 17:14 Yeah.
GT 17:14 Okay. Well, good. I’m glad you guys didn’t get too much rain and wind.
Betty 17:21 We are, too.
Mike 17:22 We’re parents of five children. And then my older brother died, and his wife died. So, we kind of adopted in their kids. So, we’ve got a big group. We’ve got 26, 27…
Betty 17:36 I lost count.
Mike 17:37 Twenty-seven grandkids.
Betty 17:37 Twenty-six, I think.
GT 17:38 Wow.
Mike 17:39 And they’re the joy of our life.
Betty 17:41 Yes, definitely.
Mike 17:44 We have…
GT 17:44 Aren’t you supposed to have more gray hair when you’re a grandparent? You guys have no gray hair at all.
Betty 17:49 Well, the gray thing. Yeah, we have gray hair, right here.
Mike 17:53 Yeah. The white man color dye, his hair dye…
GT 17:58 It works pretty good? Wow, that’s interesting.
GT 18:05 All right. Well, so you’ve lived in Florida for 30 years.
Mike 18:10 Yeah.
Hopewell Evidence
GT 18:11 And you’re somehow associated with the Phoenicia. Tell us that story.
Mike 18:16 Well, we’ve been following John since the first event up in Ohio.
GT 18:20 John Lefgren.
Mike 18:20 Yeah, up in Ohio with the with the Heartland Research Group. And Rian Nelson from the FIRM Foundation was instrumental with John forming the Heartland Research Group and getting donations. And Rian just calls one day, “Hey, you want to come up to this magnetometer reading in Ohio.”
I said, “That sounds good.”
He said, “Well, you can contribute some money, you can come up.” So, we went up to it. And it was fascinating. John was very cordial, very happy to see us.
He goes, “I’m glad you’re here. I don’t know why you’re here.” He says, “But I’m glad you’re here.” So, it was it was pretty neat.
Betty 18:55 By the end of that event, he knew why we were there. Because we provide, the chuck wagon. So, we brought all the supplies to take care of the group, shelter them, feed them, and that sort of thing. And we felt like that was part of our contribution to the whole gathering. And it’s been like that since.
Mike 19:21 Yeah, we make sandwiches.
GT 19:25 I’ve had some of your food and it’s wonderful food. So, I can witness that.
Mike 19:31 We just love being with you here. So, we’ve just been every time, going with the group, on our own, pretty much on our own dime, because we believe finding out ancient things about our ancestors, which was which was amazing, seeing the Hebrew influence in ancient American Indians. You talk to these people who are not even members, archaeologists and cultural people. “Do you see a Hebrew influence here?”
“Yes, it is everywhere here, in the buildings, the old mounds, the earthworks, their culture. It’s still here.”
“Well how did it get here?”
“I don’t know how it got here. I don’t know why it’s here.”
Betty 20:16 There are so many people that don’t have a clue of all this archaeological history that’s along the Mississippi, some south from Florida all up and down to the river, the great river, Ohio and some of it dating back to the Jaredite time and 600 BC, I mean, it’s just unbelievable.
Mike 20:39 We just visited Shell Mound in…
Betty 20:42 Cedar Key.
Mike 20:43 Cedar Key, Florida, dated 565…
GT 20:48 Is this a Hopewell mound?
Mike 20:49 Now, this would be yeah, yeah it would be Hopewell. It would be early and then there’s Apalachicola, we went there to a mountain called Pierce Mounds, 600 BC, privately owned. You can walk around and pick up pottery off the ground. It could be Nephi’s porridge bowl. [There are] Dent mounds at the mouth of the St. Johns River, a huge river that flows north through Florida, 600 B.C. [There’s] 600 B.C. all over the southeast.
Betty 21:22 That magic number.
Mike 21:24 Crystal River, Shell temple 50, 40 feet in the air.
Betty 21:30 Shell mound, yeah.
DNA
GT 21:31 Well, let me ask you this, because I know with, especially the Mesoamerican proponents, but I’m curious if this applies to Heartland as well. A lot of times, especially because of the DNA evidence, a lot of the Meso people are saying, “Well, Lehi’s group was only about 30 people. their DNA died out. I shouldn’t say died out. It was kind of– it’s too small to measure. And so, would you be of the same understanding with regards to that?
Mike 22:06 Rod Meldrum did a big DNA study. And he’s still working on that. But he came across haplogroup X in the DNA, which was the Algonquin people in the Northeast, that tied right into that area, also. That is my people, the Algonquin people.
GT 22:25 So, Ugo Perego, he’s a good church member, but he said like the Kennewick man–I know, there was a presentation where somebody made a face of the Kennewick man and said it was the first Nephite, but that would have been, according to carbon dating, 9000 B.C. So, the X2A was here, long before Lehi was. At least, that’s the claim. So, it wouldn’t have been Lehi that brought that, that was already here.
Mike 22:54 Well, they’re still studying that stuff. DNA, as far as DNA and how they’re how they’re aging it. You need to get into that and studying that, because they stretch it out for 20 or 30,000 years. And if you do it scientifically, it can’t go that far. It’s a third of that, or a quarter of that. I don’t know. I don’t know. It’s above my paygrade, but it’s been explained to me on how they came across it and how they do it. It’s pretty interesting. They need more study on that.
Buying the Phoenicia
GT 23:29 Okay, so, let’s jump back to the Phoenicia for a second. You were in Florida when Philip came into Florida. Is that right?
Mike 23:41 Yeah.
GT 23:42 Tell us. How did you meet Philip? You weren’t a crew member, we’re you?
Mike 23:46 No, I wasn’t a crew member. I’ve been on the boat from Fort Lauderdale or from Miami up to Fort Lauderdale, I sailed on it.
GT 23:52 Oh, you did?
Mike 23:53 Yeah. That was freaking awesome on my birthday.
GT 23:56 Oh, wow.
Mike 23:57 But when Philip came to town, we knew it. We’d been tracking them for years. And people here in this country, people part of the Heartland movement would love to have the boat. You know? So, we went down there to meet them in Fort Lauderdale, Miami. I’ve got a picture here. This is Phillip’s boat. I don’t know if you’ve ever seen this yet?
GT 24:18 I’ve got an autographed copy.
Mike 24:19 You’ve got an autographed copy, that’s awesome. And Betty and I met Phillip here.
GT 24:28 I’m going to zoom in here a little bit. Oh, yeah. And Philip has a nice beard there. That’s interesting.
Mike 24:35 He has a beard. He’s darker than we are. He’s been on the open sea.
GT 24:37 He’s been in the sun a little bit.
Mike 24:39 I make these cedar drums and Betty painted it up. And she painted the Pulsar star on it, not knowing anything about how the Phoenicians founded that star and made it part of their culture. So, we met them. I gave him the gift. Betty gave a talk there. Philip found it very intriguing, whenever Betty says that her people came across the big salt, because he had been here earlier doing a raft trip down the Colorado River with some Navajos, and [he was] very pleased to hear these things. And that’s in the back of the book on his thoughts, and on that was very interesting.
GT 25:27 I guess you can’t really shave very well on a–I guess you could. But why do that?
Mike 25:31 He’s a sailor.
GT 25:32 He was on there for a year. It’s actually a pretty good beard for being on there for a year.
Mike 25:36 Well, he sailed from the Canary Islands over to Santa Domingo. It took, like, 38 days. He told me…
GT 25:43 Was that the first trip or the second?
Mike 25:44 The second trip to America.
GT 25:45 Okay, so that was a shorter trip.
Mike 25:47 Yeah.
Betty 25:48 He just came short of America the first time.
Mike 25:50 Yeah.
GT 25:51 Right.
Mike 25:51 But he says if you stay at the Canary Islands and throw a stick in the water, it’s coming in America. So, it’s a no brainer. And ancient ships like this, they came out of the Mediterranean, like they did. They came down to the Canary Islands and then caught the trade winds and the current over. You know, just like the hurricanes, right into the Gulf of Mexico. So, it was pretty neat. So that’s where we met him, and we kept up with him.
GT 26:20 Is that why the hurricanes all come to Florida, is because of that…
Mike 26:24 Yeah, trade winds and the current.
GT 26:26 Wow.
Mike 26:26 Oh, yeah.
GT 26:28 That’s the only thing we don’t like about Florida is the hurricanes, right?
Betty 26:31 Yeah.
GT 26:32 And the humidity.
Betty 26:34 We wanted to be the friendly Indians to meet him.
GT 26:38 (Chuckling)
Mike 26:38 And give him a gift.
Betty 26:39 Yeah.
GT 26:43 Interesting. So, you actually rode from Miami to Fort Lauderdale?
Mike 26:47 Yeah, most of the crew got off in Miami went back home. So, he needed some help getting it up.
Betty 26:53 Some muscle.
Mike 26:54 I called him. I said, “I’d love to come back down.” I’ve got a friend, Steve Ross, we’d come down here and we sail up there. It was an awesome experience.
GT 27:02 How long did that take?
Mike 27:03 It took us all day, about 10 hours.
GT 27:05 So, just one day.
Mike 27:06 Yeah, it was one day. Yeah.
GT 27:08 Okay.
Mike 27:09 We came out right out of the Miami port, right out of the jetties and straight up to Fort Lauderdale.
The Boat Sinks
GT 27:15 Wow. That’s cool. So, you were the one that got involved in actually purchasing the Phoenicia and having it shipped to Iowa, right?
Mike 27:27 Yeah, one day. John Lefgren calls me up, he says, “Hey, Mike, I’ve seen you on this boat with some guy.” He says, “What can you tell me about this?”
Mike 27:35 I go, “Oh, that’s Phillip Beale, that’s the Phoenicia.”
Mike 27:38 He goes, “Well, what’s going on with that?” And previously, I’ve been making trips down there to secure it and make sure it was well secured during storms or the summertime.
Mike 27:51 And I said, “I don’t know what’s going on with that.” So, I called Phillip, but come to find out, there was a hurricane that passed through there. It didn’t hit them directly because I went down and tied it up good. I didn’t put tarps on it. I probably should have put tarps on it. But one thing we didn’t plan for was electricity going out. So, when electricity goes out, so what? It’s a boat. Well, the boat has a sump pump. And the sump pump wasn’t working. So, between the sump pump not working and the torrential rains, she sunk to the bottom of the canal, which is only about eight feet. But it was enough to destroy the diesel engine that was in there. Because after the electricity came on, she came back up out of the water, you could not tell that she sunk.
GT 28:37 Oh, okay.
Mike 28:38 But, when they went down to start the engines, it was a hydrostatic lock on that diesel engine and it just popped the starter right off, filled the engine, because the engine was in the water.
GT 28:50 And you just used the diesel engine to get in and out of port, right?
Mike 28:53 In and out of port is very, very important. So, at that point in time, he…
GT 28:56 Because it doesn’t steer very well.
Mike 28:58 Yeah.
GT 28:58 And he needed the engine to steer it into…
Mike 29:00 It’s got a brass propeller. It’s got a rudder underneath there did that, you know, so it does quite well. Slow, you know, very slow, but steady steering the ship.
GT 29:11 But that was never used during the trip. It was just going to get him out of port.
Mike 29:15 Yeah, getting out of port.
COVID Makes Purchase Possible
Mike 29:19 So at that time, John said, “What’s going on with that?” So, I called Phillip and asked him what was going on?
Mike 29:23 He says, “Well, I have it in an a yacht club yard and we’re cutting it up and I’m shipping it back to United Kingdom.” Because prior to that, there was a number of museums and other people who were wanting to purchase it.
GT 29:40 Because, now let we make sure. When he landed in Miami, it was like February, right before COVID hit. Right?
Mike 29:49 Yes, and then we took it up to Fort Lauderdale. And you were hearing more and more about it. And then it just broke out. And it sat there for two years.
GT 30:00 COVID did yeah.
Mike 30:01 Yeah, and originally we wanted to purchase it. But we could not contend with these other museums and these other collectors. I mean, the price was out of our range. But COVID was a blessing for us. So, I called him and I said, “Is it for sale?”
Mike 30:20 And he said, “Yes, it’s for sale.”
Mike 30:22 I said, “That’s awesome.” And he named a price, which I thought was awesome, too. He already had one container in England. And half of it was still here and John, he’s ready to jump on a plane to go to England and talk to Phillip. I said, “Well, I think we can do this by Zoom.”
GT 30:43 (Chuckling)
Betty 30:45 Save a few bucks.
Mike 30:47 There were a few people in the group…
GT 30:49 Yeah, but then you don’t get to go to England.
Betty 30:51 Yeah.
Mike 30:51 I know.
GT 30:52 That’s worth something, right?
Mike 30:55 There were a few people in the group that were opposed.
Betty 30:59 Not really [very] happy.
Mike 31:00 [They were] opposed to it.
GT 31:03 In the Heartland Research Group.
Mike 31:04 Yeah. But Betty came and saved the day.
Betty 31:10 That’s what they say.
Mike 31:11 She came in and threw down some numbers and saying, “We will personally help, ourselves.” But it was pretty much John, and the Heartland Research Group are the owners of it. It’s a nonprofit organization and we are so happy to have it. The other container got shipped to Iowa, or not Iowa–yeah, Iowa, Montrose, Iowa.
GT 31:37 So, these are those big shipping containers. Do those just fit on a, like, a diesel truck, and, basically, you drove it across land?
Mike 31:44 Yeah, we had it shipped from Fort Lauderdale to Iowa. And then we, fortunately, found a 65-foot by 65-foot building with 20-foot ceilings to put it in. There were a number of miracles that happened, just within 30 days of purchasing that ship for us to acquire it and get it there. And even now putting it together at the, I call it the Phoenicia workshop. If you Google Earth it, it’s the Phoenicia Ship Museum.
Betty 32:21 In Montrose, Iowa, across the Mississippi from Nauvoo. If you walk out of our building, you look to the left. You can see the Nauvoo Temple, right there across the river. It’s amazing.
GT 32:34 Oh wow.
Mike 32:35 So that’s where we’ve been all summer. We spent three months up there. Betty volunteers. We have a circus tent on the inside. It’s a 20 by 30 party tent where we have, like, a museum and bookstore in there.
GT 32:51 Gift shop, I think.
Mike 32:52 Gift shop.
Betty 32:52 A gift shop, a seating area where they can watch the videos of the Phoenicia’s expeditions.
Mike 32:58 It’s air conditioned.
Betty 32:59 It’s air conditioned. It’s really nice.
Mike 33:00 It’s not really good air conditioning in the tent, but it definitely cuts it down.
GT 33:04 It’s better than Florida, right?
Betty 33:05 Oh, yeah.
Mike 33:06 And better than the workshop, because the workshop is hot.
GT 33:08 Oh, really?
Mike 33:10 So, we’ve been putting it together in the workshop. We’ve got 12 pieces put together. It’s going together really well, much better than I ever dreamed. We pull out these tenons. They’re Mediterranean walnut with olive dowels holding the planks together. So, we pulled them out and put new ones in. And it’s just all going back together within the same holes. It’s amazing me.
GT 33:37 And Mike Stahlman is the guy who’s doing the good work on that. Right?
Mike 33:41 Mike Stahlman, yeah, he’s one of my lead guys that’s helping out.
GT 33:45 He’s your Nephi.
Mike 33:47 Yeah, he’s there one week, a month, he’s able to come up, because he’s building his house. But this last summer we had over 3000 hours of volunteers coming in. It’s so strange. Truck drivers driving by seeing it, stopping and “Oh, I want to work on it.” Members, non-members, it’s the whole gamut. They don’t care. They don’t care…
GT 34:12 What do non-members think about this?
Betty 34:14 They love it.
Mike 34:14 They’re fascinated.
Betty 34:15 They love it. And they tell others about it. And we have had people from Chicago come down. And we’ve had teachers and they want to learn about it. They want to know more about it.
Mike 34:29 They want to touch it.
Betty 34:30 Yeah, that’s one big thing too. They want to touch it.
GT 34:34 Well, cool. So, you were the guy that was instrumental in getting it from Fort Lauderdale to–now only half of it is in Iowa. Is that right?
Mike 34:48 And the other half is still in the U.K., which we should get in the springtime.
GT 34:52 Okay, so you’re just going to have to wait for a ship to cross the ocean.
Mike 34:56 Yeah, we’re waiting for shipping prices to come down a little bit, since COVID. You remember the ships backed up in the ports and they can’t load anything. So, we’re not going to get messed up in that. We’re not in a hurry. We’ve got half the ship now, putting it together. But yeah, Betty and I were–and Brian Bunkhere and Terri Lynn went down originally, and we walked around and inspected it, took pictures and videos and talked with the guy.
GT 35:20 In England?
Mike 35:21 No, in Fort Lauderdale.
Betty 35:22 Ft. Lauderdale.
Mike 35:22 Ft. Lauderdale, where it was taken apart. I’m glad we went, because they were they were cutting stuff up and throwing it away. The mast, they cut it up. Throw it away. Are you kidding me?
Mike 35:36 The sail, the yard, the upper deck. They were getting ready to throw the engine away, the lower deck. I said, “Timeout dude. Do not throw away anything that comes off of this ship, except for the ballasts.” The ballast was sheet metal, steel, 20 tons of steel laying in her belly. “Throw that away, but everything else, shove it in that container.”
GT 36:03 Why wouldn’t you keep the sheet metal?
Mike 36:05 It was all rusted. They didn’t even want to recycle it, because it had so much rust on it.
GT 36:10 So, you’re going to have to rebuild that or you don’t need it, because it’s not floating?
Mike 36:16 It’s not floating. And in the museum, I mean, anciently, they used stones.
GT 36:21 Instead of sheet metal.
Mike 36:22 For ballasts, yeah. So, we’re going to build it back and show the way that they did it.
GT 36:22 Anciently.
Mike 36:23 Yeah, we’re going to put goods in there, all kinds of trades. You’ll be able to walk onto the ship. You’ll be able to go down into the belly, walk through it. And it’ll be set up like a 6th century [B.C.] Phoenician ship, how it would have traded within the Mediterranean.
GT 36:48 So, do you have a background in shipbuilding or anything? Or is this just kind of a thing you picked up along the way? What’s your vocation, I guess I should say?
Mike 36:57 I’m in remodeling. I’m in the remodeling business.
GT 36:59 So you’re remodeling. You are just remodeling a ship.
Mike 37:02 That’s all I’m doing.
Betty 37:05 Well, sometimes, he’ll wake up in the morning. He just said, “I just got a download.”
Betty 37:11 And I was like, “A download?”
Betty 37:12 He goes, “Yeah, I just got a download. It’s amazing. I know what to do.” So, he’s doing this through faith and prayers and the downloads are coming, which is amazing.
GT 37:25 Would we say revelation? Is that what you’re saying?
Betty 37:27 Yeah, revelation.
GT 37:28 You call them downloads.
Mike 37:29 Nephi got a download on how to build a ship.
Betty 37:31 That’s what he calls it.
Mike 37:33 So, I got a download on how to reconstruct it and put it together. And the thing with everybody else. They’ll come and start working. “Can we do this? Should we do this?” And it’s just amazing. You know, you get five and six people that are putting this together. And then it just, it takes us about 40 to 50 hours to prep a piece to get it ready to put in. And now they’re taking around 40 minutes to install, 50 minutes to install the whole piece.
GT 38:02 Oh, okay, so they’re getting better.
Mike 38:03 Five feet by six feet.
GT 38:04 They know what they’re doing, now.
Mike 38:05 Yeah, I mean, it’s just, really, really cool.
GT 38:09 Well, we’ve got a model of the ship here. Do you guys want to show that? This is what a miniature would look like. Now there was a horse’s head on the front. I don’t know. We’ll see if I can see that on here. Oh, I’m out of focus for some reason. I noticed at the conference that horse head was– had been [torn] off the ship.
Mike 38:38 Yeah, we brought it with us.
GT 38:40 Was that something that they were going to throw away originally then?
Mike 38:43 I don’t think, I would hope not. She was laying on the ground.
GT 38:47 How much got thrown away before you got there?
Mike 38:50 The upper deck, the mast, the yard, the sail.
GT 38:54 And so you guys are going to have to rebuild the decks and the sail.
Mike 38:58 Well, we were going to plan on rebuilding it. The decks were supposed to be cedars from Lebanon. That’s what the deck was supposed to be. But they’re having conflict in the area, so they really couldn’t get that. So, we’re planning on cutting cedars and harvesting cedars down in that area and putting them on the upper and lower deck.
GT 39:18 The Cedars of Iowa?
Mike 39:20 Nope.
Betty 39:21 Cedars of Zarahemla.
Mike 39:23 Cedars of Zarahemla.
GT 39:24 Oh, but that’s in Iowa, right?
Mike 39:27 That’s right.
Betty 39:28 Right where we’re at, yeah.
Mike 39:31 The Lord named the area. I didn’t, sorry.
GT 39:33 (Chuckling)
Betty 39:36 D&C 125:3.
GT 39:38 Oh, wow.
Mike 39:38 Very good, dear.
Betty 39:39 Very good.
Mike 39:41 But, if people want to work on it, it’s Phoenicia.rocks. We will have–last year we had it. We haven’t had it this year, but we’ll have a schedule on there. You can schedule in a day to come and work, a half a day, a quarter day, a full day. Some people come and work for two weeks. They come from In Arizona, they come from Portland, California, New Mexico, Pennsylvania.
Betty 40:08 And we’re trying to work out a place for them to stay overnight at a very minimal cost.
Mike 40:15 We try to help.
Betty 40:16 Yeah, we try to accommodate them. And even with food, a little bit, during the day, while they’re at work.
Mike 40:22 She does a camp feed every day.
Betty 40:24 Yeah.
Mike 40:24 It’s a little bit better than that, but a camp feed.
Betty 40:27 We really appreciate all those who are involved in this humongous project. At first, we thought, “What are we doing?” Here we are, two little Indians, getting involved in something that is bigger than we anticipated. But, when we got there, and we started working on it, and the flow, people that were coming in, they were just taken back by such a great cause. And they believe in it.
Betty 41:05 They go away. I’m sure, they go away thinking, “What the heck? 600 B.C.? I think that means something to me.” So, it’s been awesome. I appreciate all those who have come through there, especially the volunteers. We’ve got awesome volunteers that just really put their heart and soul into it. And we just really appreciate all the hard work they do. And they follow us to this conference. They helped us this last conference. So, that’s a lot of differences by those who have a love and passion for the story, Phillip Beale, making this trip with Yuri and Vera and all those crew members that believed in this project. And not really knowing what we would acquire, the meaning behind the 600 B.C., the Book of Mormon and all that. Philip had no idea. He had no idea what he was doing, only that he wanted to do it. And then we got a hold of it, he’s just a great, kind, gentle man. I don’t think he gets what he’s really done. We keep reminding him of that. John praises him all the time.
Mike 41:25 Field of Dreams is probably three hours north of us.
GT 42:34 Oh, really?
Mike 42:35 Yeah. We’ve been up to their people…
GT 42:36 So, you’re a baseball fan?
Betty 42:37 Yeah, [you should] come by there, yeah.
Mike 42:40 It’s kind of like, “If you build it, they’ll come.” But we haven’t built it yet. But they’re still coming. So, if they build it, they’ll come and that’s what they are doing. So, it’s pretty neat. In three months to see what we’ve done, 3000 man hours of volunteers. I mean, how do you do that the first year?
GT 43:02 So, when were you kind of negotiating this? What was the approximate timeframe? Was that just this year?
Mike 43:13 Yeah, on the 16th of this month [November 2022], it was 10 months ago.
GT 43:16 Okay.
Mike 43:17 So, this month.
GT 43:20 So, January, basically?
Mike 43:23 Yeah.
Getting the Word Out!
GT 43:23 So, January, you were negotiating it, and then you got it out here. That is pretty quick. I was in Independence for [the] John Whitmer [Conference] in September, and we went to the LDS Visitor Center, and they were like, “Hey, we’ve got these little,” almost the size of postcard, “Phoenicia.”
GT 43:43 And I was like, “What is this?”
Mike 43:45 There’s our great volunteers, getting the information out there. So, we rely on people like you to get the information out there to people. Come by. Bring your family. Do a family reunion. If you’re in Nauvoo, bring your family over. We’ll block out a time for you and your family and…
GT 44:05 I’ll put it a relatively inexpensive place to stay is the Community of Christ has a campground in Nauvoo. Now that you guys are going to have a [ferry,] when’s the ferry going to come in? Do you have any idea?
Mike 44:16 In the spring sometime.
GT 44:17 In the spring sometime.
Mike 44:18 Yeah, we’re going to work on getting a ferry back and forth between Nauvoo and Montrose. And as well as having, there’s nothing better than coming to Nauvoo and then getting on the river. I mean, it’s the River Sidon, for heaven’s sakes. You go up and down the river. You go and you see the temple from the river. It’s really neat. You get to see the wildlife, lots of bald eagles.
Betty 44:40 Oh, yeah. It’s beautiful.
Mike 44:42 It’s just a different world out there on the river. I’m a river guy.
GT 44:46 And plus, Mark Twain, right?
Mike 44:48 Yeah.
Betty 44:49 There’s a lot to see in the area.
Mike 44:52 He’s downriver a little bit, but, yeah.
GT 44:55 I always think of Huck Finn.
Betty 44:59 When you go to https://www.Phoenicia.rocks, you’ll be able to go to that page, sign up. There will be a place to sign up where you can actually volunteer. And there’s more information on where to stay, if you need a place to stay. Also, this summer we plan on holding the first powwow, Indian powwow…
GT 45:21 Oh!
Betty 45:22 …at the heartland Research Group warehouse. So, we’re in the works with that. We’re going to also have different shows coming there, like arts and crafts shows.
Mike 45:32 Community show and tell.
Betty 45:33 Community show and tells, archaeology that they found, and they’d like to share so people could see, because there’s a lot of artifacts in that area.
Mike 45:44 Now we come into contact with an amazing amount of people that come by with boxes of stuff, Hopewell. Some Edina, but mostly Hopewell.
Betty 45:52 Arrowheads, farmers that are finding…
Mike 45:54 Out in the field.
Betty 45:54 Yeah, farmers. Yeah.
Mike 45:57 It’s really neat.
GT 45:58 Very good. I’m trying to remember what else is there that we need to talk about?
Mike 46:03 One interesting thing that happened when we brought the container up to Iowa, Betty didn’t come, because she was in warm Florida, and we were in freezing Iowa. And we unloaded the container into the building. And Betty goes, “Have you seen the eagle yet?”
Mike 46:19 I says, “What eagle? What are you talking about?”
Betty 46:23 And not long after that, I guess you guys were at the building. It was kind of cloudy that day.
Mike 46:32 Finishing up.
Betty 46:33 And you were finishing up and it was cold. And John, was he sitting outside?
Mike 46:37 We walked out the front door of the building. And the building is probably about 35-40 feet high.
GT 46:44 This is the Phoenicia Museum?
Mike 46:45 Yeah. A bald eagle flew over to the point, flattered his wings right there and then flew off South.
Betty 46:52 John said he circled. And so, when I was at home, I have a connection with the eagles and the birds and nature. It’s just part of my upbringing, of who I am. And I saw the eagle and I saw in my minds eye, the eagle. And I said, “Mike, the eagle is coming.
Betty 47:18 And he’s like, “Okay.” And that’s when John said that the eagle came and hovered over the Heartland Research Group building and circled the building.
Betty 47:28 And I told Mike. I said, “He’s giving his blessing, his blessing on this project, the Phoenicia.” So, we look to the eagle as a sacred bird.
GT 47:38 Was this a bald eagle or a golden eagle?
Betty 47:40 Bald eagle, as a messenger and a protector as Zetas. So that was that was quite a good sign. Yes, that was, and it was a blessing to see that for them.
Mike 47:52 And John said, “I’ve never seen a bird do that. I’ve never seen a bald eagle since I’ve been here.”
Betty 47:58 Yeah.
Mike 47:58 So it was neat.
Betty 48:00 And they migrate there. They stay there, don’t they? They winter there in the winter. And they nest there during the winter.
Mike 48:06 They look for parts of the river that are broken, so they can still fish. If you find a part of the river that the ice is not forming yet, you’ll see 25, 30 bald eagles around. It’s really awesome.
Betty 48:20 Yeah, it’s a beautiful sight. Montrose is known for that. One thing they’re known for is those eagles that come.
GT 48:25 Is that kind of a Native American thing with the bald eagles?
Betty 48:28 It’s a very sacred bird. Messenger to Great Spirit.
Mike 48:33 Most of the regalia that Natives wear is from the bald eagle.
Betty 48:38 The bald eagle and the hawk.
GT 48:40 Okay. Very good. Anything else we should know?
Betty 48:48 I can’t think of anything.
Mike 48:49 Very good. Thank you for having us. It’s been awesome.
Betty 48:50 Yeah, thank you.
GT 48:52 Well, Mike and Betty LaFontaine, thank you so much for being here on Gospel Tangents.
Mike 48:57 Thank you, it’s been great.
Betty 48:58 Thank you.
[1] See John 10:16.
Copyright © 2022
Gospel Tangents
All Rights Reserved
Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission.
Podcast: Play in new window | Download (Duration: 50:11 — 46.2MB) | Embed
Subscribe: Email | | More
