It appears that the LDS Church brands the scarlet letter A for apostasy on the chest of those guilty of apostasy in order to make their teachings appear dangerous to orthodox members of the Church. Despite all that, Janice continues to attend church in Provo, Utah. But this scarlet letter has affected her children, and not in a good way. Check out our conversation….
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Gospel Tangents
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Would Janice Come Back?
Interview
GT 00:37 Very good. I’m trying to think of who else in there. So Avraham, Maxine, both came back. Lavina applied and didn’t [get accepted.] Have you ever applied to get back?
Janice 00:50 No, no, I won’t.
GT 00:51 You won’t? Why not?
Janice 00:55 Several reasons. One, I’ll go through them. I can only think of three today. Sometimes I can think of—the most important one. First, in order to get back, again, I take the laws and regulations of the Church seriously. In order to get back, it’s required to go back to the court that excommunicated you, and to look at what happened, and the applicant is required to repent of what they did. Now, repentance must be sincere. I don’t believe I did anything wrong. Therefore, I cannot say I repent of what I did. So, I can’t, in good conscience, apply for rebaptism, because that is the process. The second one is, through everything that happened in the process of my church discipline, it became very clear to me that the Church requires obedience to Church authorities. And they also require me to claim, to say, that I recognize the leaders of the Church as prophets, seers, and revelators. I do not recognize the leaders of the Church as prophets, seers and revelators.
GT 02:11 Oh, wow.
Janice 02:11 And I am not willing to submit to their authority. Therefore, although, I don’t think the Church should require that, however, that’s what they require. So, for that reason, I won’t do it. The third reason is, it would be futile, since they rejected my dear friend, Lavina. Why would they accept me who has written many, many more things since then, which go farther, farther, farther from what I did at that time. So, it would be wrong and futile, and so I don’t.
GT 02:50 So if your bishop came to you and said, “Janice, we want you back in Church.” You’d say?
Janice 02:58 I’d say for these—it’s interesting, because my bishop has never said that. One of the Relief Society presidents, who was a friend of mine, said to me, “You should reapply.” I told her my reasons. She said she had talked to the bishop, and he said that he would be willing to go through the process. And I said, “No, it would not…” Again, it would not be fair to put people through this process, which I know is going to fail, and which I also know that I cannot maintain a willingness to have my speaking, writing, publishing, overseen by them.
GT 03:44 Well, because Maxine speaks at Sunstone now.
Janice 03:47 She does.
GT 03:48 So do you think that’s still a condition?
Janice 03:51 Well, I don’t think it was ever a condition. I don’t know Maxine’s history. Speaking at Sunstone, many Church members still do that.
GT 04:01 What I’m saying is, and I have to talk to her, so we’ll get more of her story. But I would assume she probably had a similar prohibition: Don’t speak.
Janice 04:14 No, as far as I know, and listening to Maxine, she was not active. She was not going to church at the time. She did not go to her court.
GT 04:26 Oh, when she was excommunicated?
Janice 04:28 Right. So I don’t know what she was told. I mean, I don’t know. And I doubt, again, I don’t know for sure. I doubt if she made any contact with Church authorities for some time, for many years until she decided to…
GT 04:44 I know she became a priest in another gnostic religion or something.
Janice 04:51 She was doing things in the gnostic. Yeah.
GT 04:54 And so I wish I could remember her speech better and I need to get her on, but we’ll let her tell her story. But I would assume there would be something similar. Because Margaret was told not to speak. You were told not to speak. Paul was told not to speak. {chuckling}
GT 05:12 So it’s hard for me, I’m sure Avraham was told. So, I would assume, that would have been one of the conditions and Avraham, I mean, he’s still giving Israel things, and I think he has a podcast. And so Maxine, I mean, I do remember she said, when the bishop came to her something and said, “Hey, let’s reapply,” and she was like, “Alright, let’s do it.” And she said, “I never had to recant anything.”
Janice 05:37 Yeah I know that, I remember her saying that, which I found unusual. Let me put it that way. I cannot account for Maxine’s story. But I do know what the handbook requires and what Lavina was required to do, which was exactly what the handbook requires. And so, I assume that that’s what I would be required to do. And I would make it. I mean, I won’t go back in for those reasons that I gave you. But to me, I still attend church.
GT 06:21 Yeah, which I think is cool. I remember I talked to Paul, and I was like, would you ever be rebaptized? And he’s like, Yeah, if they’d let me speak. {both laughing}
Janice 06:30 Did he say that? Wow, I didn’t know that. {continued laughter}
GT 06:34 So would you have the same reaction: Yeah, I’d get rebaptized if they would let me?
Janice 06:39 Well, I would be rebaptized, if it was clear that they would need to just say that the excommunication was wrong. Because they’re going to require me to say, “I’m sorry. You were right for excommunicating me,” and I’m not going to say that because I’m not. So, they would need to say “We’re sorry.”
GT 06:59 Oh wow.
Janice 07:00 So they would need to say “We’re sorry. You should not have been excommunicated. And you have full freedom to speak and write according to the dictates of your conscience”.
GT 07:09 They did that with Helmuth Hubener, but he was dead.
Janice 07:12 That’s right. No, then I would consider it, but it would have to be clear that I do not regard any of the leaders as prophets, seers and revelators.
GT 07:23 Well, that’d be tough to get a temple recommend. {chuckling}
Janice 07:25 It would. No. They require us to say that, and I say where’s the evidence?
GT 07:34 I wonder if you could get in the Church, because I don’t think that’s a baptismal question.
Janice 07:42 That’s a good question. I’m not sure.
GT 07:46 Would you be comfortable being a non-temple record holder in the Church? I guess you kind of are now.
Janice 07:53 Well, I am. So, interestingly enough, they did permit me to be in the ward choir.
GT 07:59 They prevented you?
Janice 08:00 They permitted me to.
GT 08:01 Oh, permitted you.
Janice 08:02 This was interesting. I was trying to remember how many years I’ve been in the ward choir, at least five maybe more. It’s been a long time. Maybe even up to 10. I lose track of time. But our ward choir director is a professional musician. She’s a friend of mine. She’s a music genius. And she knows I’m excommunicated. She said, “Janice be in the ward choir”.
I said, “My voice is terrible. You do not want me in the choir”. I said, “besides, they won’t let me”.
She said “Let me ask”. She went and asked, and she got permission…
GT 08:37 Oh, nice.
Janice 08:37 …for me to be in the ward choir. Could I say? “No, I’m so terrible. You don’t want me.” So I said, “Okay. I’ll be in the choir.” It has been wonderful. In the choir, you sit next to people, and you sing together, and you get to know people. And she chooses wonderful music. And it’s been really wonderful. I’m happy to do that.
How Scarlet Letter Affected Janice’s Children
Interview
GT 08:58 Well, that’s great. I think one of the reasons the Church excommunicates people like you and Margaret and Paul, etc., is to put a scarlet letter on you, that you’re not safe. And I think you experienced that, especially, right after your excommunication in your ward. Has that changed? Do you get ministering sisters? Are you still scary?
Janice 09:27 It’s a really good question. It’s 30 years and wards change so much in 30 years.
GT 09:33 Right.
Janice 09:34 Only on the boundaries, we’ve lived in the same home but you know, ward boundaries.
GT 09:38 Sixteen different wards, probably.
Janice 09:40 Exactly, different bishops. So, it’s been an interesting process. At first, it was really, really hard for me. I did definitely have a scarlet “A” on my chest for apostate, and people did not, there were maybe two or three people in the ward who would even talk to me or look at me. It was really hard. And I stoically went through it. And I talked about it in my account. It was very, very hard. So when I was excommunicated, my youngest was, let’s see, two and a half.
GT 10:24 Oh, wow.
Janice 10:25 My oldest was married. So I have nine children in that range. And I wanted my children—my husband, of course, was a professor at BYU. He had to have his ecclesiastical endorsement. He had to go.
GT 10:39 “Do you affiliate with anyone apostate?” says the Church. “Well, I’m married to one.” [They would ask David, her husband.]
Janice 10:45 Interesting, my sister, not Margaret, I have another sister, who has passed on now, a beautiful woman. And she always answered that one very honestly. She said, “Yes, I affiliate with my two sisters, and they are good people. And they did not deserve what happened to them. ” Anyway.
GT 11:05 Oh, wow.
Janice 11:06 So it was hard. And I wanted my children to be able to decide for themselves. But interestingly enough, only my oldest daughter is still in the Church, the rest have all left.
GT 11:17 Oh.
Janice 11:20 Gradually over a period of time.
GT 11:25 Do you think that’s because they feel you’re mistreated? Or are there other reasons?
Janice 11:29 Well, that’s definitely a factor. But I don’t think it’s the only factor.
GT 11:34 Because you raised them all as believers.
Janice 11:36 I did.
GT 11:36 Even as an excommunicated member. Right?
Janice 11:38 I did. We read the scriptures. I taught the gospel in the home. I mean, many things happened. And there are a lot of different issues. All of us are politically pretty liberal. Some of us are way far left. Some of my children are way far left. And I raised them to be thinkers. And we’re all intellectuals. And it’s hard for people to find a place in the Church under those circumstances. So again, they each have their own stories, and I couldn’t even for sure tell you exactly what reasons each of them have. But each of them is a very, very good person, with very strong ethical values. They’re all following what they feel is right. And I love them all dearly.
GT 12:41 Yeah.
Janice 12:42 But yes, I did raise them with the expectation that we would all be in the Church and, have gospel conversations into the eternities. And that is not the case now, but that’s alright.
GT 12:58 I had a conversation with Jonathan Stapley, several years ago. And the topic came up: we believe families are forever. You are married in the temple, your children I think were all born in the covenant. Right?
Janice 13:16 Yes, they were.
GT 13:19 And it seems like there’s some gray area, does excommunication break those temple bonds? And I don’t think there’s a consensus yes or no on the answer. What do you think?
Janice 13:35 Well, I think it’s is clear from the scriptures that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of promise. The bonds are made with God, in God. And only God can sever those bonds. That’s my view.
GT 13:53 So, your bond?
Janice 13:56 Well, for instance, the Church believes that they can say such things to you as; “You’re excommunicated. You can now no longer wear the garment.” But my view is, I made my covenants with my Lord Jesus Christ, not with the Church. If he tells me to do something, I’ll do it. Otherwise, I will follow what I promised to do.
GT 14:21 Oh, really?
Janice 14:23 You can deduce from that what you wish. (both chuckling)
GT 14:25 Okay! Well, that’s really interesting! Yeah, because there’s the whole, I don’t like to talk about the sad heaven, when children stray. I mean, I know it sounds like you’re still close to your children. Does it bother you that they, at least, don’t attend church anymore? Or are you more happy that they just have a personal relationship with God?
Janice 14:32 Well, the part that is hardest for me, is that most of my children, as far as I understand, don’t even believe in God anymore.
GT 15:06 Oh.
Janice 15:06 That’s the hardest for me. And not because that makes them, not lesser people or not as good. But to me, belief in God gives such comfort and also such understanding, that it’s hard for me to understand how we can live in this world with meaning, and still have hope, with the many great, great problems that are in the world today. How can we live with hope, without knowing that there is a power for good, that is overseeing all things? To me, that’s the hardest thing to know that they don’t have that. But they have ways. I have learned very much that each of us, each person, and I believe this, to me this is one of the most beautiful things about the gospel of Jesus Christ, is that each person through the atonement of Christ, and the Holy Spirit has a direct and personal connection with God. And that is true, whether the person knows that or recognizes it, or hopes for it, or takes advantage of it. And that’s always true. And so I mean, I know that their journey is important to God, and that God is with them, and that they will be guided in the ways of goodness. And when they are ready to accept more understanding about God, and how God is in their lives, then they will accept it. That’s what I believe.
GT 16:56 Very interesting. Do you think? There’s the scripture, the same spirit that you have in this life, you’ll have in the next. Knowing you’re a believer, and they’re not, do you think those sealing bonds will pull them into heaven with you? {both chuckling}
Janice 17:23 Well, that’s all very complicated, because one of the questions that I have explored at great length, in my mind, and in my writings is; what does it mean to believe in Christ?
GT 17:37 I guess I should say, do you think you’re going to heaven? I shouldn’t have assumed. {chuckling}
Janice 17:45 Well, let me put it this way. There is one keeper of the gate. I know who that is. And I expect to see him there. The keeper of the gate is the Holy One of Israel, who is our Lord Jesus Christ, and He employs no servant there. So we will all see him.
GT 18:02 So, it’s not Saint Peter?
Janice 18:04 No, it’s our Lord. And we will all see him. So yes. What does it mean to go to heaven? We have various ideas about that, and I think very few of them are accurate. {chuckling} So getting back to, what does it mean to believe in Christ? To profess belief in Christ is clearly not what it means. There are many who say, Lord, Lord, but I do not know them. It’s he that doeth the will of my Father, which is in heaven. And what does it mean to do the will of God? To me, the will of God is not like the will of an individual person. The will of God looks to the good of all. So, the will of God is overseeing everything that is and working for the good for all. So, any person who desires good, and desires truth, and helps others, and this is very clear in the parable, the sheep and the goat. It’s interesting, because all of those who clothe the naked and feed the hungry and visit those in prison. All of these are in positions of more power, or more resources than the person they are helping. So, this is how I see it. Anyone who tries to serve and help others and cares about others, is a believer in Christ. So, from that perspective, all of my children are always in Christ.
GT 18:19 So even an atheist can be a believer in Christ?
Janice 19:39 Of course.
GT 19:39 Oh, wow.
Janice 19:40 Anyone who sincerely desires to help others and cares about those who are marginalized and are not seen as—if we help those and Jesus said this. If we only help those who help us, then what does that show about us? But if we help those who cannot help us in any way, that shows that we really care. So, that, to me, is the touchstone for what it means to believe in Christ.
GT 20:17 Oh, wow.
Janice 20:19 So from that perspective, many that we do not see as believers truly are. And many who call themselves believers really aren’t.
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Gospel Tangents
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Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission
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