In our final conversation with historian Vickie Speek, she’ll talk about the James Strang’s death, and how the role of prophet & apostle did not continue in the Strangite Church. She also shares how learning about James Strang adversely affected her testimony of Joseph Smith. Check out our conversation….
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How Strang Broke Vickie’s Testimony
Vickie 00:31 Now in the beginning, we talked about the plates of Voree that were buried in the ground. And I said, that was a faith problem with me. Well, when I initially started the Strang story, one of my intents was, and I’m embarrassed to say this, but I thought, as an active LDS woman, that I would get all the names of the people that followed James Strang and have the youth in the stake do baptisms for the dead. What a wonderful plan! They wanted to belong to the correct Church, which was obviously the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
GT 01:21 Lower case d.
Vickie 01:22 That’s right with hyphen, little d. So, we’ll just have a big mass, baptisms of the dead for all these people that went up to Beaver Island, and Voree, and all the people that followed Strang. And then I realized that the people that followed Strang didn’t want to belong to the Utah church, because they didn’t believe in polygamy, and they didn’t believe in Brigham Young. So, that’s why they went with Strang. So, the more I learned about the church, the Strangites, the more I learned the differences between the people that went west, and the people that went to Voree, Wisconsin. I went to see Bill Shepard. I went into their church, and then as you go into the church, right in front of you is a picture of Joseph Smith. And off to the side of him is a picture of James Strang. And I thought, “Holy cow. This is real. These people really believe in James Strang.” And up until that point, it had just basically been named a story to me. And all of the sudden, it became real. And I saw the Hill of Promise. I saw the houses. I saw the cemeteries. Those people really existed. And they went through terrible trials of their faith and of their lives. They were kicked off Beaver Island and sent out, scattered across the Midwest. But yet, there’s still people that remain devoted to James Strang. And we went to the Hill of Promise, and I saw the tree, or the area, anyway, that’s supposed to be where the plates were dug up under that tree. And I could not, for the life of me, figure out how Strang could have possibly put those plates in the ground. And I thought, “Well, if Joseph Smith had found buried plates, and he translated them, and I believe in that, then why don’t I believe in James Strang and the records that he translated? If I believe in Joseph Smith, then I have to believe in James Strang.” And then I found out that James Strang had taken an auger and drilled into the side of the hill into all that clay. It took him like three or four weeks before that they were found or anything. He drilled into the side of the hill. He took the clay box and inserted it underneath the tree because it was on a hillside. And all of a sudden, my faith in Joseph Smith was gone.
GT 04:38 Oh, really?
Vickie 04:41 Because I had decided that they were the same. I had to believe in one, because I believed in the other. All of a sudden, all that doubt was there. So, I still have a lot of respect for the LDS Church. They’re my people and my culture. I’m a cultural Mormon, although I’ve had my name removed from the records, because of the November 2015 declaration that was made about the children of gay parents, not being able to be baptized.
GT 05:22 So, that was the straw that broke the camel’s back.
Vickie 05:28 But it’s not [been easy.] It’s been a very personal, a very hard journey for me. And I wouldn’t recommend it for anybody. If you’re happy where you are, stay where you are. If it works for you, great. And I’m really happy for anybody that can keep that faith. But it all goes back to those records underneath that tree. Isn’t that funny?
GT 05:54 So how did you find out about this auger? I haven’t heard about that before.
Vickie 05:58 I came across a document. I came across a document. There were two things. It said, “Uncle Ben used to have an old brass kettle and they cut up Uncle Ben’s old kettle to make those little plates. And they used an auger to put it in the hill.”
GT 06:18 Oh, so it would look like it had been there the whole time.
Vickie 06:23 And it was just a document I stumbled across.
GT 06:26 I’ve dealt with Strangites before and they’re like, “Well that’s just anti-Mormon lies.” I mean, is that the reaction you would get to something like that? “This is an anti-Mormon, or an anti-Strangite propaganda that somebody talked about this auger?”
Vickie 06:42 Right. But it’s a document that I found.
GT 06:47 Was it from a Strangite or somebody else?
Vickie 06:49 It was from somebody back in the 1850s that said that they had investigated and they found it in his house.
GT 06:59 They found the auger.
Vickie 06:59 They found the auger in his house.
GT 07:01 Oh really? Why not get rid of the auger?
Vickie 07:05 Well, they’ve got to dig fence poles.
GT 07:08 Okay.
Vickie 07:08 They’ve got to put the fence in, somehow. You’ve got to have the auger.
GT 07:15 Huh. I mean, because that’s one of the testimonies, one of the differences between Joseph Smith and James Strang was Strang had non-Mormons dig this up. Right? And so, therefore, he had non-Mormon witnesses.
Vickie 07:33 Well, they weren’t Mormon at the time. But they became Strangites because of the experience.
GT 07:41 Okay. So, he was the Mark Hofmann of his day.
Vickie 07:44 Yes. And then as far as the Book of the Law, somebody else found brass remnants, brass scraps, in the attic of Strang’s home on Beaver Island. And that person was one of his apostles. And that day, he took his family and left Beaver Island.
GT 08:08 When they found the remnants.
Vickie 08:09 When he found the remnants of the brass in the attic of Strang’s house. He thought “That’s what the Book of the Law was made from.” And he left.
GT 08:21 Was that a different material than the Voree plates?
Vickie 08:23 No, they were both brass.
GT 08:25 Oh. Could they have been the Voree plates? Do you think?
Vickie 08:31 Well, the ones that–it could have been the Voree plates, but they found that at a different place. They said that they had found the remains of Uncle Ben’s old kettle. And if I had remembered, I should have found those documents to read them to you.
GT 08:49 That’s okay. Wow, that’s very interesting. I love these things, because I’m always learning stuff.
Vickie 08:56 Well, and there were some people who claimed to have helped him do the books of the Law.
GT 09:02 Oh, really? No witnesses for the auger to drill in the hill. Do you think he could have done that by himself?
Vickie 09:08 Yes.
GT 09:09 Okay. So just use something that you would dig for fence posts.
Vickie 09:14 Dig it on the side of a hill, dig it down. You do it sideways, slip it in, and that way the dirt is not disturbed, the tree roots aren’t disturbed. The ground underneath isn’t disturbed. And who’s going to check on the side?
GT 09:29 Did they have to cut down the tree in order to get the plates?
Vickie 09:33 Yes. They had to cut down the tree.
GT 09:36 Oh, okay. That makes sense.
Vickie 09:38 They had to cut down the tree. They had to cut the roots out. And they had to go through rock and hard packed ground in order to get down to that little thing.
GT 09:49 We were talking about how he was assemblyman in the Michigan Legislature. Were there any important bills that he did?
Vickie 09:56 He was a representative in the House of Representatives.
GT 10:00 Oh, Okay. Anything distinguishing as far as his career as a congressman?
Vickie 10:07 I believe he was in charge of the separation of some of the counties, the creation of counties in northern Michigan. But he was very well-respected. And he was a great debater and great orator, and very progressive, and they really liked him in the House of Representatives.
Strang’s Death
GT 10:31 Well, his death is a really interesting story, as well. Of course, he was martyred in a similar fashion to Joseph Smith. Can you talk about the events surrounding that?
Vickie 10:45 One of the things that the Strangites were noted for, was they kept the Word of Wisdom very strongly, much better than the people in Nauvoo did. You hear about the people traveling out west that had their tea and so forth. But they were very strict with the Strangites, where they did not have coffee, or tea, or alcohol. As a matter of fact, James Strang was a member of the Temperance Society, trying to get rid of spirits and liquors. One of the things that the state of Michigan did was they passed a law, that anybody who was trading on the lakes of Lake Michigan, had to have a bond if they were going to trade. And so that meant that they had to put money out, in order to sell their liquor, or any of their products. They had to make sure that they were licensed and bonded. And they were not to sell alcohol to the Indians. It was against the law to sell alcohol to the Indians. And it happened that Emmet County, where the Strangites were, was the only county in all of Michigan that enforced that law.
GT 12:21 Oh, really?
Vickie 12:23 It made the people around there very, very angry, because a lot of them were traders and fishermen who were profiting off of the Indians.
GT 12:33 Did it make the Indians angry that they couldn’t get their liquor?
Vickie 12:38 Yes. It made the Indians angry. They would go with their skins or whatever they were trading for. And the traders would make them wait to get paid for it. And during the time that the Indians were waiting, then they would get drunk. And then they would drink more and more and more until they had already drunk up the profits of whatever it was they were selling. So, then they were more in debt to the trader than ever before. So that’s something that Strang was absolutely against: no selling alcohol to the Indians. And that’s what made everybody so mad in the area, especially. That meant the end of their businesses. There were a lot of boats that would come into the harbor on Beaver Island. And they would start selling alcohol to people from Beaver Island that got a little tired of James Strang. Those people would go out onto the boats and drink alcohol. And when Strang found out about it, then he says, “Well, you guys are going to stop it or those boats are not going to come in the harbor. I don’t care how much profit we get off of them.” Those people got very angry and decided to do away with James Strang. It was his own followers. They plotted his assassination. And one day the United States warship Michigan, came into the harbor. They asked James Strang to come on board and two of his followers came up from behind and shot Strang in the head and in the back. He lived for another couple of weeks. He was taken back to Voree, where he died and the mob of people that hated the Strangite Mormons, descended on Beaver Island and exiled all the people. And that was the end of the Strangites on Beaver Island. They had neighbors scattered all over the Great Lakes.
GT 14:53 Yeah, I heard that the USS Michigan just stopped every once in a while, and dropped them off. They had no luggage or anything, and were just really destitute.
Vickie 15:03 The mob forced them on the boats with nothing. But it wasn’t everybody that went off without nothing, because some of them were able to get off the island with their stuff. But it was the ones that were later on that had no leader and the mob came with guns and said, “Get your stuff down to the port by tomorrow, or we’re going to burn your house down. And we’re going to kill your family.” And once they got their stuff down to the port, they expected it to be loaded on the ships. And the Gentile vigilantes kept it and sent the Strangites off on boats, penniless, with nothing.
GT 15:48 Yeah, I remember John Hamer talking about that one time. And he’s like, “There hasn’t been a more persecuted people than those people.”
Vickie 15:56 Absolutely not.
GT 15:58 You know, in the LDS Church, we talk about the Martin and Willie handcart companies. And it was terrible because it was in the cold winter. But this was probably [worse.] Would you say it was just as bad or worse?
Vickie 16:12 This was very bad.
GT 16:13 I mean I guess the weather was better.
Vickie 16:14 They didn’t even know where they were going.
GT 16:16 Right.
Vickie 16:17 They were loaded on these ships. They didn’t know where the ship was going, whether it was going to Detroit, or Chicago, or Cleveland, Milwaukee, Green Bay. And their families might be on another ship. So, they didn’t know where they were going. And they landed onto the pier. Sometimes they weren’t allowed to be landed on the piers. So, the ships would drop them off in little communities, in little clumps along the shore. And they would walk to the nearest town. And they didn’t even know what town it was. So, it was very, very bad.
GT 16:59 Why do you think is the Navy was involved? The US Navy was involved in this right? Why do you think the Navy was involved?
Vickie 17:08 What happened is the Strangites became very prosperous. They had a lot, they became very– they had some very nice homesteads on the land, although the land wasn’t theirs. They didn’t really own it. They thought they did. But they became very well off with the boats and fishing and lumbering. They had some very prosperous homesteads, and the Gentiles knew that if they could kick the Mormons off the island, that they could have those things for themselves. And as far as the Navy and the US government, it was complicit. They were, obviously, in on it. But for the exact reason, I’m not really sure. But they were, obviously, in on it because the people had gone, some of the assassins had gone to Chicago and talked to the War Department to the Secretary of the Navy.
GT 18:22 We need to get rid of this James Strang. He’s practicing polygamy, just like Joseph Smith.
Vickie 18:27 Basically, yeah, I think that’s what it is, is against polygamy.
GT 18:32 And then the Word of Wisdom didn’t help…
Vickie 18:34 And you know what they did to the people in Utah for practicing polygamy.
GT 18:40 It’s just that Utah was the frontier, and this was a lot closer to civilization. I was going to ask you this other thing. Lyman Wight was in Wisconsin, was he associated with James Strang at any time?
Vickie 18:55 He was distantly. You’re talking about the pineries in Wisconsin, where George Miller and Lyman Wight would cut down lumber for the Nauvoo Temple and for the homes, and so forth, in Nauvoo. And they ship the logs down the Mississippi River.
GT 19:19 Did they just float them down? Is that what they did, basically?
Vickie 19:22 Right. But George Miller became a Strangite, General George Miller.
GT 19:28 Okay.
Vickie 19:30 He went down to try to settle…
GT 19:33 He was from the Nauvoo Legion?
Vickie 19:35 Yes, yeah, George Miller, who was very good friend of Joseph Smith. He went down to try to settle up with the Lyman Wight colony. And he didn’t like it down there and found that he agreed with James Strang, [so he] went back from Texas, back to Beaver Island, towards Beaver Island and picked up, what are the brothers of Newell Clark Whitney, and took the two families [up there.] He took about 30 people up there.
GT 20:11 So Lyman Wight was…
Vickie 20:14 Well, Lyman Wight’s son was married to George Miller’s daughter. So Orange Wight went up…
GT 20:23 Two colors? (Chuckling)
Vickie 20:28 It’s really bad. He’s singing the blues. (Chuckling)
GT 20:35 Okay, was Lyman Wight there before Strang got there? Or were they there–it sounds like they overlapped for some time, at least.
Vickie 20:44 Lyman Wight went to Texas and he stayed in Texas.
GT 20:47 I thought he went to Wisconsin before he went to Texas.
Vickie 20:50 Yeah, but he wasn’t in the same area of Wisconsin. He was in the pineries, which is on the western side along the Mississippi River.
GT 20:58 So, he wasn’t in the same area as James Strang. I was curious about that. And for those of you who really want to get a Lyman Wight thing, see my Mel Johnson interview. Mel is the Lyman Wight expert. You’re the Strangite expert. This is great.
Vickie 21:16 As long as you don’t ask me theology.
GT 21:18 And if you want theology, Bill Shepard. Well, I’m going to have to talk to Kyle, because we’ve just been getting into Elvira/Charlie Thompson. But I think Kyle is coming to Utah. So, we’ll have a part two, hopefully.
Vickie 21:38 Okay. That’s great.
Strang Succession
GT 21:42 Wow. And the last thing, so I think Lincoln, when he was shot, he died pretty quickly. But, as you mentioned, James Strang lingered for weeks. I mean, with modern medicine, he probably could have been saved, right? Would you agree with that? Because wasn’t it just an infection from the bullet wound that killed him?
Vickie 22:07 The bullet had gone into his spine and caused paralysis.
GT 22:11 Oh, I didn’t know that.
Vickie 22:12 And, I believe it also went into his kidney, his left kidney. So, I know that the exterior wound had healed, but the interior wound had not.
GT 22:25 Okay, so they really needed to get that bullet out in order to save his life.
Vickie 22:28 Right.
GT 22:29 And he just wasted away and died, basically.
Vickie 22:32 And like Joseph Smith, he failed to name a successor, even up to his deathbed. They said, “Is there anything you want to say?” And he said, “No, I just had tell everybody to take care of their families.” And he refused to name a successor. And at the very last minute, they said, “Is there anything else you want to say?” And he said, “Yes.” And he died. So, I suspect that he would have come clean at the end, if he could have. He would have said, “Well, I’m sorry for what I did to these people. It’s all my fault that they’re suffering so badly. But I really did intend to do good.” And I think he really did. I think he intended to do good. He started out looking for profit. And then he became a prophet.
GT 23:35 So, is that your opinion of Joseph Smith, as well?
Vickie 23:41 Yes. I think that Joseph Smith started out looking for money for his family. It was all for good purpose, to support his family. And he got a little carried away, people carried it away, as well. And he got carried away and started believing his own stories. And that’s what James Strang did. And, basically, I think that they had good intentions, and they meant the best for their people. And then at the end, when they realized what they had done, they were sorry for it.
GT 24:20 Interesting.
Vickie 24:21 And I’m not sure that Joseph Smith’s church would have continued, if he hadn’t been martyred. I think maybe it would have fallen by the wayside. Maybe polygamy would have been the end of it. I’m not sure.
GT 24:36 I mean, I’ve heard speculation that Joseph Smith was trying to end polygamy, because he was just realizing it was just too big of a hornet’s nest. But, as far as we know, he didn’t.
Vickie 24:55 And then Brigham Young carried it forward.
GT 24:58 Right. And so, because James never mentioned the successor–couldn’t apostles call new apostles?
Vickie 25:12 Yes. Apostles could ordain new apostles.
GT 25:15 But they didn’t.
Vickie 25:16 Because they didn’t realize it. They kept waiting for a prophet. Only God could anoint a prophet.
GT 25:27 Right. Because that’s a big deal in Strangite theology.
Vickie 25:30 That’s a big thing in the Strangite Church, the Prophet. And because–they’re still waiting.
GT 25:38 They could not ordain [a prophet.]
Vickie 25:39 They’re still waiting, only God can anoint a prophet. And they’re still waiting for God to anoint another prophet. And what happened is they lost all of their apostles before they realized that they needed to carry that on, that only apostles could ordain apostles. Finally, there was only one apostle left. He ordained Wingfield Watson to be an apostle. And then Wingfield Watson really didn’t have anybody else to call. And it went down to the high priests. And right now all they have are high priests. They don’t have the higher offices.
GT 26:25 I understand Kyle Beshears, his Ph.D. dissertation was on Wingfield Watson. I don’t want to get too far into that, because I’ll save that for Kyle, but do you have any idea, birth and death dates for Winfield Watson.
Vickie 26:38 Wingfield Watson came from Wales, and went to work in the lead minds of Illinois. And he was on a boat when he and he and his wife were intending on going to Nauvoo to be baptized by the LDS, the Brighamites. And they happened to meet some Strangite missionaries on the boat that was going down the Mississippi. And the Strangite missionaries convinced them that they should go to Voree, = well not to Voree, but to Beaver Island, and become members of James Strang’s church.
GT 27:28 Instead of Salt Lake.
Vickie 27:29 Instead of going to Salt Lake City. So, the family continued on, went to Beaver Island, became very devout. I think they went on the island in 1852. And he was probably born in 1825-1830 is when he was born, probably. In 1852, he went to Beaver Island. And then after the saints were expelled off of Beaver Island, he went back to Wisconsin with a bunch of them. But he felt the need to be back by Beaver Island, in case they got to get back on their land again. So, he went up to Michigan and stayed in the area on the mainland, off of Beaver Island, and he set up his own church basically. [It] was not his own church, but Strang’s church, baptizing some of the Indians there, and some of the people up there. And he was a gadfly, as far as the RLDS. He said, “No, you can’t join the RLDS. You’re Strangites. [He was a] very interesting man.
GT 28:58 So, he didn’t care about the prophecy that Joseph Smith, III, would one day lead the church.
Vickie 29:03 No.
GT 29:03 That didn’t bother him at all.
Vickie 29:04 No. There was a Strangite apostle who said that, who convinced the Strangites to join the RLDS Church. His name was Lorenzo Dow Hickey. And he said that when Joseph, III, was a young man [of] 13, 14 or so, that James Strang climbed through the window at William Mark’s house, and went into the bedroom and laid his hands on the head of Joseph Smith, III, and ordained him to be his successor.
GT 29:38 Oh, really?
Vickie 29:41 And Joseph, III, said, “That’s nonsense.” He said, “I had my father’s dog, Major, with me all the time. He would not have let anybody come in through the window. It did not happen.” But Lorenzo Dow Hickey insisted it did. And so, a lot of the Strangites followed Joseph, III because of that. =So, there was conflict between Wingfield Watson and Lorenzo Dow Hickey.
GT 30:12 Oh, that’s interesting. So did Hickey basically join the RLDS Church?
Vickie 30:17 Yes, and then he got kicked out. He was just very ornery, cranky guy. He changed his mind, I guess. I’m not sure.
GT 30:30 All right and so has there been a continuous string a church or congregation and Voree since 1856? Would you say?
Vickie 30:44 No, the saints, the Strangites went to Wisconsin, to Jackson County, Wisconsin.
GT 30:53 Oh, really?
Vickie 30:54 Yeah, not Missouri. And from there, they had a settlement by Black River Falls. There was also a group that went to Atchison, Kansas. And from Atchison County, Kansas, there’s a group that went out to Alamosa, Colorado, and another group that went to New Mexico. But they were all just a couple of families here and there. And the group that was in Alamosa decided to come back to Burlington to Spring Prairie. And that’s the group that Bill Shepard is from. His parents or his grandparents came from Colorado, to settle up in Burlington, and that’s where most of that group is from now. It’s descended from those that were out in Colorado. But none of James Strang’s children ever joined his church. And I’m not sure if there’s…
GT 32:01 Even from the four wives?
Vickie 32:02 No.
GT 32:02 Oh, wow. Were they pretty–I mean, do you know if they were burned by the whole issue?
Vickie 32:09 They were burned by the issue and they were afraid that somebody was going to find out they were Strangites and come and burn their house down, or hurt them and their family.
GT 32:20 So, they didn’t go by Strang’s name, or did they? Do you know?
Vickie 32:23 Some of them did not go by Strang’s name. So they did not want it known that they were Strangites or that they had practiced polygamy. And that’s where a lot of the doubt comes in with the RLDS Church, too. The Strangites that came into the RLDS Church, in some cases, denied polygamy, even though they had known that it was practiced on Beaver Island. But the group that’s in Burlington, Wisconsin right now, there’s probably, there’s less than 100. [There’s] between 50 and 100.
GT 33:01 Okay.
Vickie 33:03 And they are basically people from Colorado. Their ancestors were converted by somebody called Granny Flanders who was a very devout woman. I think she was in New Mexico or Colorado, and she converted a lot of people. And then they all basically went up to Spring Prairie, Burlington. And that’s where that group is from. And that’s where they are today. They still exist. They still have a church. They’re wonderful people. They meet on a Saturday and it’s fun to go and visit with them and then go to dinner.
GT 33:47 Is it still on Mormon road?
Vickie 33:49 No, it’s not on Mormon Road.
GT 33:50 Oh, it’s not.
Vickie 33:51 It’s on Spring Prairie Road.
GT 33:53 Okay.
Vickie 33:54 But it’s just up the hill from Mormon Road. Mormon Road is still there.
GT 33:57 Okay. What a side trip, from a basket weaver.
Vickie 34:02 There you go. I got in trouble.
GT 34:09 So, you’ve written the first book. Are you working on a sequel, then, with all the census information and that sort of thing?
Vickie 34:18 That’s an article that I just wrote for the John Whitmer Historical Association. And it’ll be coming out in their special anniversary edition.
GT 34:27 Oh, so I was lucky to hear that. I got the preview. And I guess you kind of did, too. Any idea when it’s be out?
Vickie 34:36 No. I will say, I’m going to edit a book. I proposed a book that will be a collection of essays from specialists on certain aspects of different aspects of the Strangites, such as Cheryl Bruno, will be talking about the Illuminati Strangites and Freemasons. And Robin Jensen [will talk] about the history. I can never say that word histor—
GT 35:13 Historicity.
Vickie 35:15 Historicity–anyway, all the records about James Strang and Strangites, that you can find in all the history books.
GT 35:22 Historiography.
Vickie 35:23 Historiography, there we go. I can never say that one. Chris Blythe [will talk about] the coronation. Oh, and Kyle Beshears about the comparison about the first visions of Joseph Smith and James Strang. So there’d be a whole–Newell Bringhurst, and John Hamer, and a whole bunch of experts, that each have a…
GT 35:56 Some of my favorite people are in this book.
Vickie 35:59 They had a chapter to write.
GT 36:01 I think almost everybody you said has been on Gospel Tangents, so far.
Vickie 36:08 It’s going to be an amazing book. It’s actually 13 years delayed. We had planned it. John Hamer and I had planned it 13 years ago. And he became involved in some other projects. And, at the time, I didn’t have the skills to edit the way that I can now. So, I went back and talked to the people who had submitted essays before. And they all agreed to do their essays again. Some of them are the same essays they wrote 13 years ago. But now, we’re going to do it.
GT 36:44 That’s awesome. Do you have a publisher yet?
Vickie 36:49 I have submitted it to one publisher. And I hope to hear back from them soon. Because almost all the essays are already done.
GT 36:58 Well, good. It should be easy to get out, then.
Vickie 37:02 We have an essay about the Strangite concept of deity. So, we have some really…
GT 37:09 I know that’s really interesting. Bill Shepard talked about that on my podcast. That was really, really interesting. I know Strangites call themselves Mormons, very non-LDS, but very different from Christianity in general, as well. So, for a preview, go check out my Bill Shepard interview.
Vickie 37:34 And I’m going to have an essay about how many people were exiled from the island. And, also, about Strangites that became RLDS. So, we have a whole collection of about 10 experts that are going to be writing essays.
GT 37:51 The RLDS were actually really good at gathering all the non-Brighamites, because they gathered up the Wightites, I think the Whitmerites, the Strangites.
Vickie 38:04 Yeah, they did. Well, it’s a fact that if you were living in a community, and you were a member of Joseph Smith’s church, you believed it, and you were active in your community, in your church, there in your community. And then all of a sudden, the church over in Nauvoo packed up and left. That didn’t mean that you weren’t a member of that church still. The church moved, they didn’t. So, all of a sudden, they lost their church. The church went off without them. And they had no identity. So, I think that Joseph, the third, presented their identity.
GT 38:52 That’s really interesting. Well, is there anything we’ve missed?
Vickie 38:57 I think we’ve skipped around everything.
GT 39:03 All right. Are you going to stay put in Florida? Or am I going to keep chasing you?
Vickie 39:07 Oh, I think we’ll stay put for now, because I had a nightmare a couple of weeks ago. In my nightmare, I was driving down a road, and it was snowing. It was a country road and there was, like, a foot of snow in front of my car. And it was snowing, and it was cold. And I woke up thinking that was a real nightmare. Because I don’t like the cold anymore. I like it warm.
GT 39:33 Yeah, I’ve chased you to Alaska, and I finally caught you in Florida. So, it was exciting.
Vickie 39:41 I like it in Florida.
GT 39:43 Just so you guys know, I think I asked Vickie at least five years ago to be on [the podcast.] So it’s taken me a long time to get her.
Vickie 39:51 It took me a long time to get my records back together and I still am not exactly accurate on everything that I say, because I’m going off my 20-year-old memory.
GT 40:03 Well, we wouldn’t know any differently.
Vickie 40:05 If you read my book, you will.
GT 40:07 That’s right. All right, remind us again what the name of your book is.
Vickie 40:12 God Has Made Us a Kingdom: James Strang and the Midwest Mormons, by Signature Books.
GT 40:17 Yes. It’s a fantastic book. So, Vickie Speek. Thank you so much for being here on Gospel Tangents. I really appreciate it.
Vickie 40:24 Thank you very much for inviting me here. Welcome to Florida.
GT 40: Thanks.
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