Famous Strangites (Vickie Speek 2 of 4)

Vickie Speek continues our conversation about James Strang, an early rival to Brigham Young. Strang gained some famous Strangites to his movement. He was successful in gaining some influential converts like Martin Harris & William Smith. Who else joined? Vickie will share that, as well as information on Strangite temple practices and other scriptures produced by James Strang called the Book of the Law of the Lord. Check out our conversation….

Gospel Tangents

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Famous Strangites

Vickie 00:37 So, the fact that James Strang had a Letter of Appointment, and he translated ancient records, attracted a lot of people from Nauvoo.

GT 00:52 An angelic visitation, also.

Vickie 00:53 And angelic visitation.

GT 00:55 Just like Moroni.

Vickie 00:56 And he didn’t practice polygamy. But there were all kinds of rumors going through Nauvoo, about polygamy, and there were a lot of people that were very upset about it. They did not believe in polygamy. And a lot of people didn’t like Brigham Young.

GT 01:11 Right.

Vickie 01:12 So, there were a lot of people who went to Voree to check it out.

GT 01:17 Can you talk about some prominent members that LDS people will recognize?

Vickie 01:21 John E. Page, and William Marks, and Martin Harris.

GT 01:27 Martin Harris, especially.

Vickie 01:28 Martin Harris, yes. He actually served a Strangite mission to England.

GT 01:34 I’m trying to remember the Joseph Smith Papers [editor.] Why am I not thinking of him? Robin Jensen, I think he has an ancestor who served a Strangite mission with Martin Harris. So, that’s pretty interesting.

Vickie 01:51 Yes. And that’s what Robin did his doctorate thesis on.

GT 01:56 Oh, I didn’t know that.

Vickie 01:57 A Strangite Missionary.

GT 01:59 Robin’s been hard to get on. He keeps avoiding me. I don’t know why. I’m a good guy, Robin. Come on.

Vickie 02:04 He avoids you like I do.

GT 02:08 Yeah, it’s been a long time to get you on, too. (Chuckling)

Vickie 02:11 Well, the problem that I have is the fact that it’s been 20 years since I wrote my book. And it’s been 20 years since I’ve gone over my documents, and so I feel inadequate, that I can’t remember everything the way that it’s supposed to be. When you first write a book, you know everything about it, and it’s there with you and you think about it all the time. But after 20 years…

GT 02:34 You move on to other things.

Vickie 02:36 You just forget things. And that’s been the reason why I’ve been elusive. But now, since 2013, in the last 10 years, I’ve moved five times.

GT 02:51 I know.

Vickie 02:52 And my files just kept getting more scattered and more scattered and I couldn’t put them together. So, now we’re back together again.

GT 03:02 William Smith was another prominent member.

Vickie 03:05 I was just going to mention William Smith and John C. Bennett.

GT 03:09 Exactly. No relation, yet, that I’ve been able to identify. (Chuckling)

Vickie 03:15 And George Adams. And they ended up to be Strang’s right hand men. At first, Aaron Smith was the first counselor and John E. Page was one of the apostles. And William Marks was the president of the stake in Voree.

GT 03:40 I didn’t remember that William Marks was part of that. Wow.

Vickie 03:45 But when the three most abominable characters in Mormon history show up, then a lot of people cleared out.

GT 03:56 The three most abominable people are…

Vickie 04:00 John C. Bennett, William Smith and George J. Adams.

GT 04:07 Oh, wow.

Vickie 04:08 And they were the head…

GT 04:09 The first two, I can understand. George Adams, not so much.

Vickie 04:13 Yeah, George Adams, he’s quite a character.

Intro to Strangite Polygamy/Census

GT 04:15 Okay. Well, one of the questions I wanted to ask you, I’ll ask it in two parts. For how long was James Strang supporting monogamy, and then polygamy was eventually introduced? I know there is another set of scriptures that we’ll talk about here in a minute. So that’s part one. Part two is, who do you think may have introduced Strang to the idea of polygamy? I think the two biggest culprits are probably John C. Bennett and William Smith. So, I know that’s a long question.

Vickie 04:59 I think that they introduced polygamy to James Strang. But, in actuality, what happened is that James Strang fell in love.

GT 05:13 Just like Joseph Smith and Fanny Alger.

Vickie 05:14 He met an 18-year-old woman, a schoolteacher, Elvira Fields. She was not overly beautiful, but she’s very handsome and healthy looking. She was extremely intelligent, probably his equal as a female in intelligence. And I think it was love at first sight.

GT 05:37 Really?

Vickie 05:38 He fell in love. And he knew that he could have her, because Joseph Smith had more wives.

GT 05:45 Oh, so you don’t think it was John C. Bennett or William Smith.

Vickie 05:49 No. I think they were the ones that said, “Well, yeah, you can have her.”

GT 05:53 “Look at Joseph and Fanny and all the other 30 wives.”

Vickie 05:55 Right. So Strang was against polygamy, until he met Elvira. And then they were soulmates.

GT 06:06 What year was this, approximately, do you think?

Vickie 06:08 [Approximately] 1849. He met her in 1848 at conference in Voree. Then she went back home to Michigan.

GT 06:20 Because he was still in Wisconsin at the time.

Vickie 06:21 Yes, she and her brother, and her parents traveled from Michigan, to Voree for a conference to check out the colony in Voree. They went back to Michigan, around the Jackson, Michigan area. Then they were getting ready to make plans to travel and move to Voree. But they got a message from James Strang saying, I’m taking everybody up to Beaver Island. So, change your travel plans and come up to Beaver Island instead of Voree.

GT 06:57 Was this another real estate deal?

Vickie 06:59 The people that got angry in Voree, with James Strang, made it very difficult for him to have more people come in and join his church. They were called pseudos. And they would meet people outside of the town, people that were on their way to join up with James Strang. And they would meet him outside of town and say, “Hey, you don’t want to go with this guy.” Because of this reason, and this reason and this reason, and they would steer them to Salt Lake, to Brigham Young.

GT 07:32 That’s interesting, because yeah, Brigham Young and James Strang were big rivals. I’ve heard that in like, 1848-ish timeframe, that Strang’s group was as large as Brigham Young’s group. Would you agree with that?

Vickie 07:47 No, no.

GT 07:48 Okay.

Vickie 07:49 No, I think there were a lot of people interested. But I think that people who are trying to count the number of people who were Strangites, are counting people that were newspaper subscribers, people who would come up to visit people that expressed an interest, but never really joined the organization. I’ve just written a paper. I counted the people who were on Beaver Island.

GT 08:22 This is why you were doing the census.

Vickie 08:24 That’s why I was doing the census. And I do not think that there were as many people as was reported. I think that it sounds great for James Strang to say, “Yeah, well, thousands of people are up here. And yeah, we’ve got 10,000 people in here.” There’s no way you can put 10,000 people on that piece of property.

GT 08:45 Beaver Island?

Vickie 08:47 Well, not only Beaver Island, but before, in Voree.

GT 08:49 Okay.

Vickie 08:50 You can’t put that many people in there. How many people do you think there were? I think that there may have been as many as 4000 in Voree. But I think half of them left. And then, probably, even more than half of them. I think you’re talking about…

GT 09:06 When you say left, left for Beaver Island, or left the church?

Vickie 09:08 Left the Strangite church.

GT 09:10 Okay.

Vickie 09:12 They decided that he was not for them.

GT 09:15 Okay, so there were 4000 in Voree, 2000-ish probably went to Beaver Island with him? No?

Vickie 09:22 [There were] 500.

GT 09:26 Oh, is that all?

Vickie 09:26 Between 500 and 800.

GT 09:28 Oh, wow.

Vickie 09:30 That’s how many there were on Beaver Island.

GT 09:33 Okay. Oh, it’s a lot smaller than I expected.

Vickie 09:35 Me, too. I used to say there was 1500, but I counted them.

GT 09:41 And now it’s 500? Oh, wow.

Vickie 09:43 There was between 500 and 800.

GT 09:46 Wow, that’s interesting. Breaking News.

Vickie 09:53 Coming up in the next JWHA Journal.

GT 09:55 Oh, really, is it coming out?

Vickie 09:56 A couple of issues away.

GT 09:58 See, look. I love the previews that we get. So, would you say, and I know Brighamites aren’t your focus, were Brighamites 10,000 or 4000? Do you have any sense for what they were in 1848?

Vickie 10:16 I thought it was more like, like 10,000, between 10 and 12,000 in Nauvoo.

GT 10:23 But a lot of them stayed there with the RLDS Church, or I guess the Strangite Church, because RLDS Church didn’t exist in 1840.

Vickie 10:30 And the Strangites were the ones that organized, and made the RLDS Church.

GT 10:34 Yeah, William Marks and others.

Vickie 10:38 But you did have more Brighamites in Boston, and in Baltimore and Philadelphia, in Kirtland, and so forth. So, there were a lot of people outside of Nauvoo. And they just stayed the same. They didn’t change the name of their religion. They just stayed the same. They believed the same way that they always did.

GT 11:04 I know, John Hamer has said, concerning these outer groups, Kirtland, Boston, places like that, Strangite missionaries came and they were kind of supporting Strangites and then when Brighamite missionaries came, they supported the Brighamites. There wasn’t really a strong affiliation for either group. They were just interested in what’s going on out west, whether that was in Voree or Salt Lake.

Vickie 11:30 But most of the people who came in at first with the Strangites, were members of Joseph Smith’s Church. And Strang said, “Well, I’m the successor of Joseph Smith’s church, so they don’t have to be baptized in my church.” He just accepted the baptism that happened in Joseph Smith’s church. So, you can’t count them. It’s very difficult to do that.

GT 11:52 Okay. So, you think the Brigham Young group was as big as 10,000. And the James Strang group was as small as 500.

Vickie 12:04 Well on Beaver Island, but in Voree, I think that maybe 2000, about 2000.

GT 12:11 So, Brigham Young’s group was probably at least three times bigger. Okay.

Vickie 12:17 But then again, I’m going to take another look at that, as far as how many members were in the far cities.

GT 12:24 And assign them to Brigham or Strang, basically.

Vickie 12:27 Yes.

GT 12:28 Okay. So you’re a demographer, a census taker.

Vickie 12:33 All of a sudden, I’ve become a demographer. And I have no knowledge of economics, but I’m learning.

GT 12:41 I’m a statistician, if you need any help.

Vickie 12:43 Is that right?

GT 12:46 Let me know. Well, cool.

Vickie 12:47 So you asked me about Charley Douglas.

GT 12:50 Yes.

Vickie 12:52 Elvira. She went up to Beaver Island, with her family, and she ran into James Strang again. They got to know each other pretty well. And he sent his missionary, his delegate, George J. Adams, to Elvira, saying that the Lord has decided that the Saints can practice polygamy, and that she would have the honor of being the first plural wife of the Strangite prophet.

GT 13:25 Now, because I’ve always heard that James Strang translated the Book of the Law of the Lord, and that was where polygamy was made legal or whatever. I’m probably not saying it very well. So, is that at this same time as Elvira?

Vickie 13:44 Yes, he was translating the Law of the Lord, at the same time that he was that he was getting to know Elvira Field.

GT 13:56 Okay, and so you I guess you could argue that this was a convenient revelation. It was a little different than the Voree plates, though.

Vickie 14:05 Yes.

GT 14:05 What were the differences?

Vickie 14:07 We don’t know where they came from. He never told. He never said where that he got them. He just said that he had these plates that he was translating, that they were given to him. And I know that they were carried around by one of his followers in a suitcase for a long time. And then James Strang went out on Beaver Island on an abandoned ship and translated them on the ship during about 1850-1851.

GT 14:41 And had he already married Elvira by this time?

Vickie 14:43 Yes, he had already married Elvira.

GT 14:45 So, he was a polygamist before he got this official revelation.

Vickie 14:50 Yes.

GT 14:51 Oh, that’s interesting.

Vickie 14:53 He was going to go to some conferences in the East, during the winter missionary season, and he wanted her to go with him. So, they were married on Beaver Island on July 8, 1849.

GT 15:12 I’m impressed that you know these dates so well.

Vickie 15:14 Well, July 8^th happens to be Kings Day, the day that he would later be crowned king.

GT 15:19 Okay. He chose her birthday.

Vickie 15:22 That was Elvira’s birthday. It was her birthday, and that was the day that they were married. It was on her birthday. Then, he wanted her to go with him on the mission. So, somehow, he conveyed it so that her hair was cut. And she traveled in men’s clothing as his 16-year-old nephew, Charles Douglas.

GT 15:48 And she was 18 or 19, at the time, probably.

Vickie 15:50 She was 18, 19 years old.

GT 15:52 Okay, and did she grow any whiskers or anything to hide her boyish, or girlish looks?

Vickie 16:01 No she didn’t. And, apparently, her disguise was not really that great, either, because a lot of people saw through it.

GT 16:06 Okay. And this is what I liked. Because at JWHA, there were several, Kyle Beshears, actually, we talked about this in great detail. So, we don’t have to go into too much detail. But yeah, so Elvira Fields is the same as Charley Douglas.

Vickie 16:23 Yes.

GT 16:24 And Charley wrote a lot of doctrine and exposition on the…

Vickie 16:31 He wrote newspaper articles for the newspaper. He kept the minutes of all the conferences. I think that he may have even participated in priesthood ordinances.

GT 16:43 Oh, really? Because do Strangites ordain women to the priesthood now?

Vickie 16:50 Yes, they do.

GT 16:51 Okay.

Vickie 16:52 And there was a priesthood office called teacher that women were anointed to, or ordained to, later on.

GT 17:01 Is that the only priesthood office?

Vickie 17:04 That’s the only one that I know of for women, that I can recall. But there were several women.

GT 17:12 So, was Charley a teacher, ordained a teacher?

Vickie 17:15 No, I don’t know. I know that one of his later wives was, but I don’t know that she was ordained a teacher. Because they didn’t have the Book of the Law at that time.

GT 17:25 Okay. But you think Charley participated in priesthood ordinances like baptism?

Vickie 17:32 I don’t know why not, if he’s got the priesthood at 16 years old.

GT 17:39 So, he could have could have been a priest as early as age 16/18.

Vickie 17:44 So it’s possible. You know, anointing the sick, if they’re on a mission, the two of them, and people ask for a blessing. And there’s two of them there. So, I don’t know, maybe. I haven’t seen anything that really says definitely.

GT 18:03 Do Strangites follow the same Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthood as the LDS, especially at this time?

Vickie 18:11 They do, but the offices are a little bit different.

GT 18:14 Okay.

Vickie 18:15 They’re just rearranged, I think. Now you’re asking me about theology. And I’m not very good at theology. So I’m not really sure about the priesthood offices.

GT 18:29 Okay.

Vickie 18:30 But I do know that, at one time, there were some men who stood up and said they had news from Beaver Island, that they wanted to share with everybody about James Strang supposedly and his nephew. They wanted to blurt some news out that they had heard from their wives. And Charley took notes during that session, during that conference.

GT 18:55 What was this news?

Vickie 18:56 The news was supposed to be that he was traveling with a woman.

GT 19:03 Charley wrote that down.

Vickie 19:04 She kept her composure as a man and kept notes.

GT 19:12 So, James Strang was traveling with a woman, but they didn’t know that Charley Douglas was the woman?

Vickie 19:19 Most people suspected it, but they didn’t dare mention it.

GT 19:24 So they were just hoping by implication that Charley would out himself.

Vickie 19:30 [Yes.]

GT 19:30 Okay, right. But that didn’t happen.

Vickie 19:32 And I know that another session, Strang ordained a black man to the priesthood while he was with Charley.

GT 19:41 Was that Joseph Ball?

Vickie 19:43 That was Moore Walker.

GT 19:46 Oh, I haven’t heard of Moore Walker. That wouldn’t be related to Q. Walker Lewis, no.

Vickie 19:51 No. He was a black man.

GT 19:52 Okay. So, as early as 1849, Strang ordained a black man. Do we know the priesthood office? That’s a theology question.

Vickie 20:05 I don’t remember that.

GT 20:06 Okay.

Vickie 20:07 It’s like me and numbers. What’s two or three zeros after a number? I don’t care.

GT 20:14 (Chuckling) 500-5,000.

Vickie 20:15 Well, yeah, 100 bucks, a million bucks. I don’t know. I can remember names, but I can’t remember numbers.

Book of Law of the Lord

GT 20:23 (Chuckling) Okay. Okay. All right. So, the Book of the Law of the Lord, I’m trying to remember. I think this is right. But see if you can remember. It seems like these plates were given to James Strang. And then when he translated them, they became the Book of the Law of the Lord. And then plates were given back to the angel. Does that sound right to you?

Vickie 20:47 No. They just disappeared. He didn’t really say where they went.

GT 20:51 Okay.

Vickie 20:52 He never said where he got them.

GT 20:54 So, he never said an angel brought them to him?

Vickie 20:56 No.

GT 20:57 Oh, so the plates appeared and disappeared.

Vickie 20:59 Yes, he just said he got the plates, but he never told anybody how he got them.

GT 21:03 Oh.

Vickie 21:06 And he never told anybody what happened to them, just that he had them, and he translated them. And, supposedly, they were the last record that was carried in the Ark of the Covenant. So, that’s all we know.

GT 21:28 Are these the only other plates that he translated or were there more?

Vickie 21:32 There were two sets. There was the Plates of Vorito, of Voree, and then the Law of the Lord.

GT 21:38 Okay, so it was just those two sets. And so those are important Strangite scriptures, now.

Vickie 21:44 Very [important.]

GT 21:44 Was it the Book of the Law of the Lord that also laid down Saturday as the day of worship.

Vickie 21:50 Yes, it has rules and regulations for how to live. It talks about polygamy. It talks about how to treat your servants and your fellow man. They have different [guidance] about what to eat, about how…

GT 22:09 Because they don’t eat pork, do they?

Vickie 22:13 I believe they eat pork.

GT 22:15 Oh, they do?

Vickie 22:15 Yeah, I think so. But it’s just supposed to be a healthy diet and just the way that things were supposed to be set up in the town and in the religious organization. It’s organizational.

GT 22:33 Yeah.

Vickie 22:35 And there was another set of really important records called The Beaver Island record, that kept a record of the people who were sealed together as families.

GT 22:46 Oh, so they did temple sealings as well.

Vickie 22:48 They did. Sometimes the family was sealed to another man, a priesthood leader, the way that they did it in the LDS Church.

GT 23:03 Like the Law of Adoption, kind of a thing, is what you’re saying?

Vickie 23:05 Yes, the Law of Adoption. They were adopted into James Strang’s family to be his son, forever.

GT 23:13 So, these are non-relatives being adopted as a son, in the next life, essentially.

Vickie 23:19 Yes.

GT 23:22 Was that the same reasoning–because I know in the LDS Church, during this time, people were concerned that their parents had rejected the LDS Church. And so, the same spirit which exits in this life will experience in the next. And so, they wanted to be sealed to Joseph Smith or Brigham Young or Heber Kimball or whoever, so that they would be able to be sealed. Because they were worried their parents were going to reject the gospel in the next life. So, it was the same idea?

Vickie 23:51 Yes.

GT 23:52 Did they build a temple for these sealings and that sort of thing?

Vickie 23:55 They did not have a temple, but they tried to build a tabernacle. But they had so much persecution from the Gentiles on Beaver Island, that it was never finished.

GT 24:08 Oh, so they did start a temple. Did they do any endowments or anything like that?

Vickie 24:13 No. It was mostly just blessings of babies. They did sealings of families together, including dead relatives. And there was a list of baptisms and there was also a list of people that had already been baptized in Joseph Smith’s church, in that record.

{End of Part 2}

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