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There is dispute among historians about Brigham Young’s knowledge about the Mountain Meadows Massacre. Is it true Brigham knew in Sept 1857? Did John D. Lee tell him the truth about the massacre?
Mel: Well, Brigham Young argued that he didn’t know the story for a long time after. I agree with Will Bagley and others that John D. Lee did not lie to Young and that Jacob Hamblin told him the truth within two weeks. Hamblin is reciting second hand what the killers had told him.
GT: Because I know Barbara said that John D. Lee went up, I want to say September 29 to Salt Lake to talk to Brigham and Barbara says that John D. Lee lied and blamed it on the Indians.
Mel: That has been one of the standards of protection for President Young for a very long time, that John D. Lee lied.
GT: Okay, so you’re saying that Will Bagley believes that John D. Lee told Brigham the truth right from the get go?
Mel: And I do, too.
GT: You do, too.
Mel: And some other historians do. Jacob Hamblin was up there within 10 or 11 days. And I can imagine…
GT : Well, Jacob wasn’t part of the massacre.
Mel : No, he was not. He would be repeating what he heard second hand. But everybody lived in everybody’s hip pocket down there. You know, we have this idea that Dixie is this vast place, which it is, that takes forever for people and information to travel. No. On horseback from what is now Panguitch, or say, Circleville, the fort there is no more than a two-day travel down to Santa Clara. Native Americans, Mormons, other whites, Mexicans, and what they know are moving through this area all the time. It’s fluid, it’s constant.
Historian Mel Johnson tells us what he thinks, and discusses pioneer John Hawley’s possible involvement, and his vocal disagreement, with the massacre.
Mel: Medical forensics work showed that there were a number of pistol holes in the skeletons and skulls of men, women and children. The only two revolvers that I can find in the Iron County Militia Musters: men who owned revolvers that were thought to be at the killing fields was Indian missionary Ira Hatch and John Pierce Hawley.
Check out our conversation….
Don’t miss other other conversations with Mel!
279: Hawley’s Opposition to MMM
278: Mormon Pioneers in Texas & End of Wightites
277: More on the Zodiac Temple in Texas
276: Lyman Wight & Mormon Colonies in Texas
275: Intro to Hawley
Rick, do you think it serves any good purpose to promote speculations such as this? People are expressing opinions again about when Brigham first learned the details of that tragedy but that is all I saw? Is there any actual new evidence that has been uncovered that will be presented? That was what I was looking for when I peeked into this edition of your blog.
Glenn
I think it is good for people to understand the debates that go on. I hope you saw my interview with Barbara Jones Brown and Richard Turley, which shows one side of the debate. Mel Johnson and Will Bagley represent the other side of the debate. My purpose us to show all legitimate sides of historical issues.
Has there ever been any connection between the MMM and the Battle of Fort Utah? It seems there were similar styles of execution. I thought Brigham Young was connected to that one.