Back in January, Rick Bennett traveled to Florida to hang out with Steve Pynakker of Mormon Book Reviews. Rick & Steve get personal! Steve interviews Rick to find out how his opinions of evangelicals have changed. Check out our conversation…
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God Bless These Damned Souls!
Interview
Steve 00:36 And look who is in the house, Rick Bennett from Gospel Tangents.
GT 00:39 Glad to be here. There’s nothing better than Florida in January. We’re here, there’s a pond behind us. There’s an alligator behind us. I’m wearing shorts and a T shirt in January. This is unheard of.
Steve 00:53. Like I was telling Rick before we started filming, I said, God showed me a lot of things that are going to happen with my channel. But he did not show me that Rick Bennett was going to be in my lanai, in my Christian community, filming a Mormon Book Reviews episode. And this is really a remarkable thing. Thank you so much.
GT 01:08. It’s great to be in Florida in January, I’ve got to tell you. The weather’s awesome. I just can’t believe it. It was snowing when I left Utah.
Steve 01:15. Yeah. What a contrast. I remember when we’d come down here from Chicago, the same culture shock happening. So yeah, I get that all a lot. Yeah. And it’s really cool to be here in Florida. And one of the reasons why we’re actually doing this, this was not planned. But we had to change of schedule for both of our interviews. We were supposed to do interviews yesterday, neither one of them [happened.] They fell through. So, we’re supposed to do them today. And I said, “Why don’t we do, like, a one-two punch: Mormon Book Reviews and Gospel Tangents, where I interview Rick Bennett about his experiences with Evangelicals that he’s had in the past, but also since he met me, and started meeting other evangelicals, partially through me, and I guess we’re going to call them the cool-vangelicals. Right? And so we want to talk about that. And, then we’re going to talk maybe on his program, where I’m going to talk about my interactions with Mormons and what I’ve learned. So, first of all, welcome to the show. This is so awesome.
GT 02:06. It’s so good to be in Florida in January. I can’t tell you how nice this is.
Steve 02:10. By the way, he just keeps on saying that the whole time we’re here. {Chuckles}
GT 02:14. I’m not shoveling snow. I’m in a short sleeve t-shirt and shorts. And it’s awesome.
Steve 02:20. Oh, and by the way, I just want to say, in the background, you can see this house. And that, actually, is a Christian friend of mine, who offered the let Rick stay at his house last night.
GT 02:28. A very, very nice guy.
Steve 02:29. Yeah, a great guy, so thanks, Eddie, for the real solid.
GT 02:32. Thank you, Eddie. This is awesome.
Steve 02:33. I love you, man. So, that’s another positive interaction with an evangelical, right?
GT 02:37. Yes.
Steve 02:38 And so, talk a little bit about your past interactions with evangelicals. And then part of the reason I want to bring that up is because I remember before I even met you and start talking to you, I was talking to Christopher Thomas, because his book was the very first book that I reviewed on my channel. And it was so cool, because I’m freaking talking to this guy with all these books behind him. They’re all Mormon. He’s a doctor and oh, man, and he was so cool, and a friendly person and really has been a mentor to me in many ways.
GT 03:12. Chris is amazing.
Steve 03:13. He really is. He’s awesome. But he had reminded me of the Lindsey Hansen Park episode. “Oh, I can’t stand those Evangelicals. They drive me crazy.” And oh, I forgot all about that. And that was true. I had forgotten about that. But I did remember as soon as he said that, “That’s right, he did say that in the interview.” And so, now of course, I contact you. And you had said, “Well, you’re a nice evangelical. Yeah, I’ll come on your program.”
GT 03:37 There are nice ones. And if you hang out with Steve, you get to meet more nice ones.
Steve 03:41. So that’s in my orbit. That’s part of my orbit, right? So yeah, of course, because of my channel and outreach that we’re doing, Rick has become aware of Chris Thomas. He’s become aware of Jeff McCullough. He’s become aware of Kyle Beshears, who we just interviewed yesterday for our channels. [He] is a Baptist minister, and you had a great conversation yesterday.
GT 04:02. Yeah, actually, our unrecorded dinner conversation was amazing.
Steve 04:07 The stuff that happens off camera is the stuff that’s mind-blowing. Would you agree? I just wanted to just have you talk a little bit about your journey with evangelicals in the past, which tended to be more negative than positive. And of course, you served a mission in the Bible Belt. And, of course, you even wanted to maybe tell a story that I’ve been meaning to have Rick tell on my channel for the last two times I’ve had him on. And I always forget. And so I thought maybe we can open with that story. Because to me, it’s one of the greatest stories ever told that I’ve heard you say.
GT 04:37 Yeah, I mean, I feel like I was just up the road because South Carolina– it’s not quite as nice as Florida, but it’s nice in the wintertime. I remember it was 60 degrees Christmas day. My first Christmas in South Carolina was awesome. My first area, in fact my companion has actually passed away. When this happened. I remember I was training at three months, which in my mission was very common. I was trained for about three months and then I became the trainer. Talk about throwing you into the fire. That’s a great way to do it. You learn a lot in those first six months. I remember, we were knocking on doors in Georgia. It was a similar neighborhood to this, it seems like. People were [telling us,] “Oh, there’s a guy down the street. He’s a real jerk. He’s a pastor.”
GT 05:28 I don’t even know what denomination, probably Baptist, but I don’t know what it was. But anyway, he’s like, “You should avoid him.” And I’m like, “we’re going straight there. We’re going straight there.” And I plus I’m with my greenie. Literally, like he was just brand new. He didn’t know anything. And I was one of those guys, on my mission, I was one of the guys who was a good Bible basher. I memorized–we had 180 scriptures to memorize. I had 90 of them memorized, by the time my companion came out. And so I was like, I’m ready. I’m ready for bear. Anyway, so we go to this guy. He wanted this to say, is it called the sinner’s prayer?
Steve 06:08 Yeah. Yeah.
GT 06:11 And, you know, thinking back on it, I was just a dumb 19-year-old missionary. I should have said it, like, what harm would it have done? But he was like, “You’ve got to say this prayer, and you’ll be saved here, right on the spot.”
GT 06:24 And I was like, “I’m not saying that stupid thing. What are you talking about? I’m a Mormon. I don’t need to do that.” Anyway, I wouldn’t say it. And he had actually invited us in for a minute. And then we walked out. And I remember, as we were walking to our bikes, he was standing in the doorway, and he just shouted this prayer, “God bless these damned souls.” I just [shook my head.]
GT 06:58 I remember saying to my companion, I was like, “Oh, we left a Book of Mormon there. I didn’t mean to. But, who cares? Whatever.”
Steve 07:02 And then he comes out like, “You left your book.” Anyway, that was kind of my experience with evangelicals. Now, there were some nice ones. I baptized a lot of nice ones. They were the nice ones. And even there were some that we didn’t baptize that were nice. But there just seems to be this conflict. You know, there’s another–one of the evangelicals who drives me crazy is Robert. Is his name Robert Jeffress?
Steve 07:29 Robert Jeffress.
GT 07:32 For those of you who don’t remember, I should see if I can find the clip. But back when Mitt Romney was running, I think it was in…
Steve 07:41 Probably 2012.
GT 07:42 I think it was 2008. Might have been 2008. Okay. I think it was his first run. Oh, I think it was 2008 when he lost to John McCain.
Steve 07:50. Okay.
GT 07:52 He was like, “I’m not voting for a Mormon. They’re not Christians.”
GT 07:56 I was just like, “You are a jerk.” And, of course, this guy, four years later, ended up like, “Well, I’m going to hold my nose, and I’m going to vote for Mitt Romney, because I don’t want Barack Obama.” And I was just like, you’re such a jerk. There’s more in common, I feel like [than differences.] I mean, I understand the theological differences. And, we talked about them with Kyle last night. You can do that in a friendly manner, which is one of the main goals for my channel. But you don’t have to be Robert Jeffress, you know, and he drives me crazy.
Steve 07:50 What’s so fascinating to me was we bring that up, South Carolina, what was so fascinating was in 2008, when Mitt Romney ran, he was endorsed by Bob Jones of Bob Jones University.
GT 08:15. Oh, really? I didn’t remember that.
Steve 08:22. He went to the campus. He spoke. He got the blessing from one of the most fundamentalist Bible colleges in America.
GT 08:45. Really? I don’t remember that.
Steve 08:46. And they endorsed him.
GT 08:47. Wow.
Steve 08:47 And contrast that with Robert Jeffress, who actually represents a more moderate strain of Baptists. And these are like right-wing Baptists, who consider the Southern Baptists to be liberals. And they actually found the grace to actually endorse Mitt Romney.
GT 09:00 In a way, I can kind of understand that because if you guys remember my Matt Harris interview…
Steve 09:08. Oh, yeah.
GT 09:09. One of the things is back in the 1980s, it was after the priesthood ban had been removed in our church. And so we allowed black people to be hold the priesthood. There was a lawsuit at Bob Jones University, because they didn’t want interracial dating. And so this is under the Reagan administration. And the LDS Church, even though we didn’t have a problem with interracial dating, was a friend of Bob Jones, in support of segregation, especially dating-wise. And so part of me says–and by the way, Bob Jones eventually allowed interracial dating and interracial marriage, but they were very, like you say, right wing, very segregationist. But I think they probably remembered that the LDS Church was on their side when they were fighting the government.
Steve 10:11. That makes sense.
GT 10:11. And so, it doesn’t surprise me, because of that. But the moderate Robert Jeffress kind of people, I mean, I met so many people like that on my mission. They drove me crazy.
Evangelical Dream
Steve 10:26 Well, actually there’s one more mission story, because I want us to talk about all the characters that you and I have been talking to you and meeting and evangelicals and stuff. But there was another story that you were going to talk about in the first interview. And you said, “Now are Southern Baptists evangelicals?” Yeah, they are. You said, “Well, let me tell you this story about, this baptism story of a Southern Baptist.” Why don’t you talk about that story?
GT 10:47 Yeah, this will be the first time on camera [that] I’ve told this story. This is a very dear story. So, I hope I don’t get too emotional. I was transferred to a little town called Lexington, South Carolina, right outside Columbia, right in the middle of state. And I remember, at the time, it was kind of–it has a couple of different plot twists to it. I was only there for like two weeks. And I got transferred to West Columbia, not far away. Basically, the reason why was they had reorganized the stake boundaries. And so, our zones followed the stake boundaries. And so, I had to be in a new [location.] It was just weird. Anyway. It’s just weird.
GT 11:37 So I was [thinking], “Why didn’t they just send me to West Columbia in the first place? Well, in those two weeks that I was in Lexington, there was a girl. I think she was about 18 at the time, and her name was Kim. I’ll leave it at that. And one of the things that we found was she had wanted to join the LDS Church since she was 15. And her mom wouldn’t let her, and I just heard horrible things about her mom. She was a Baptist. She hated Mormons. Anyway, Kim was 18. I think at the time she hadn’t joined the church. I just thought we should soften up the mom. But I was only there two weeks. What can you do in two weeks? There’s nothing you can do. But I knew Kim and I knew that her mom was this ogre, this horrible person, because she wouldn’t let Kimberly join the church.
GT 12:34 I get transferred to West Columbia. And I remember thinking, Why was I ever in Lexington? That was stupid. Why didn’t my mission president just send me that was Colombia? Why wasn’t he inspired? But he was inspired to send me there. And there was a reason I was there for two weeks. And so, a few months later, I remember we were in a car. And missionaries you have to [limit miles they drive each month.] At the time, I remember thinking this was stupid. But now I understand why they make missionaries limit the number of miles to drive because they would just drive all over, like crazy. And we don’t plan very well.
Steve 13:10 Teenage boys, young kids.
GT 12:12 Anyway, I remember, it was the end of the month, we were checking back on some Books of Mormon that we’d given away. And so, we were trying to stay close to home and not waste a lot of miles. So, this is when I was inspired, but I didn’t know that I was inspired. It didn’t feel like any [spiritual event.] There was no bolt of lightning. That stuff doesn’t happen to me. It was like, well, we were trying to save miles, and this is all we could do.
GT 13:36 So we go to this apartment building. And I ran into Kimberly. Well, she had moved with her mom to West Columbia. And she’s like, “Hey, missionaries, good to see you.”
GT 13:49 And then her mom, and she told us this later. She [thought,] “Ugh. Not the Mormon missionaries. I don’t want to talk to them.”
GT 14:00 And I just thought, “My goal is just to make friends with the mom.” And so now that we knew where she lived, we would just come over. We had had no intention to teach a lesson or anything. Well, I remember sitting there and I’d heard these horrible things about this mother; she was terrible, a horrible person. And I’m like, she’s really nice us like. This is not what I was expecting. And her name was Beverly. I said, “Beverly, would you like to take the discussions?”
GT 14:35 And she said yes. And I was like, “What is going on here? Nothing is going according to plan.”
Steve 14:41 Right and didn’t she have a reputation to yell at missionaries and cause trouble with them or anything like that?
GT 14:46 No, not like that. Just that…
Steve 14:48 She just had a reputation.
GT 14:49 We just didn’t like her because she wouldn’t let Kimberly be baptized. But anyway, we became friends with Beverly, and we were teaching her. On the second discussion is when you’re supposed to ask them to be baptized. And normally I was really nervous, but I was like, “I think she’s going to say yes.” And so, I asked her to be baptized. And she said no. And I [thought,] that was weird. We did the third discussion. I did it again. She said no again. And I was [confused.] Well, then the fourth discussion came up, which was about the Word of Wisdom. Beverly was a smoker. And so, I asked her. I said, “Is the reason why you said no, was it because you’re a smoker?”
GT 15:33 And she said, “Yes, that’s the reason I said no.” Because she knew all about the Word of Wisdom, long before we taught her.
GT 15:40 And then I found out I was getting transferred. And so, I called up Beverly, and I said, “I’m getting transferred in a week.”
GT 15:50 And she said, “No, you’re supposed to baptize me.”
GT 15:53 And I said, “Well, you’ve got to quit smoking in a week, then.” And she told us that she had had a brother that had cancer. And she had been praying. And she said that she saw these two Mormon missionaries sitting on her couch. And she thought, “Well, that’s a weird dream. I don’t like Mormon missionaries.”
Steve 16:19 Interesting.
GT 16:20 And, and so when we were there that day, that day that I didn’t feel inspired. We were like, “We’ve just got to do something close to the house. Here’s this apartment building. There’s a lot of [copies of the] Book of Mormon here.” When we were sitting on her couch, she said that me and my companion were the missionaries in that dream. And I was like, “You are kidding me.” Because I did not feel inspired to be there at all. I was just seriously thinking, “We’ve got to do something close to home.” So that was really it.
GT 16:52 A lot of times in the MTC, you’ll hear that you’re called for a specific person. I was called to be there with Beverly. And so, she quit smoking that week. I baptized her the night before I got transferred out. And it was so amazing to me to hear this. Because nothing went according to what I thought. Nothing made any sense. And she’s still a good member of the Church. I still talk to her on occasion. And so I will send this to you, Beverly, I’m sure. This is the first time I’ve told this publicly, although I did tell them my missionary homecoming. But yeah, it’s just amazing. That’s a special story to me.
Steve 17:39 Wow. Yeah. And I was like, “Yeah, wow, what a great story.” I could have had that in our first interview. And so I’m glad you’re able to tell it today. Because I always thought, “We’ve got to hear this story.” And that kind of sets up, kind of just, that’s a prelude to our conversation of me reaching out to you, having you come on my program, which there’s just so mind exploding for me that Rick Bennett, of all people, is going to come let me interview him.
GT 18:05 Steve needs to get out more.
Steve 18:06 I am a total geek here. I’m a fanboy, alright. And, honestly, I believe that Lord’s hand is on this endeavor. Right? And I’ve talked to you, I’ve told you stories. I said, “Rick, this happens every day. Something crazy happens about Mormonism in the southeast, as far away from you, in the bloggernacle, as far away as you can get from Utah. And yet I have these amazing encounters with people who have had encounters with the Restoration. And so I’m like, “Okay, this is, I feel God’s in the matter in this. And so that’s one thing. I think that in one sense it has become a ministry, non-proselytizing, but a ministry for Christians, Mormons, atheists, who have a safe space where we can all talk and have civil conversations. And I think that’s probably what the Lord is having me do, is to show this is how it can be done. And I think what is so cool is, of course, going back to the Lindsey Hansen Park episode, “I can’t stand Evangelicals.” And, of course, you didn’t have the best interactions with Evangelicals. And if you watch the stuff on YouTube, all the stuff, the apologists and just the attacks and then, usually, you’ve got the Ed Deckers, and the stuff is just flat out not true.
Steve 18:33 As a matter of fact, Kyle, we were in my studio, and Kyle pointed out a book that I had from a conservative evangelical group talking about cults or the occult or whatever. He said, “Oh, yeah, I was sent a reader’s copy of this to do a review and he said, ‘Steve, there’s pure garbage.'” I think he said something like they had the assassination of Joseph Smith happening at Liberty Jail. So they couldn’t even get their basic facts right. So much of the scholarship, a lot of this stuff is just garbage. Right? So, I can completely understand why you would have this attitude towards evangelicals, because in one sense, yes, Jeff, and Kyle, myself, and Chris and others are kind of like unicorns. But you notice the list keeps expanding.
GT 20:06. It does keep expanding, and I keep telling everybody that you’re a unicorn, you’re not a normal Evangelical.
Chris Thomas Blesses Rick
Steve 20:09 Then you keep on running into unicorns. {Chuckling} Pretty soon you’re going to have a herd of them. But just talk a little bit about that, just like your interactions like with, you know, I introduce you to Chris Thomas and all these other people and just tell me what has Rick Bennett’s journey been like?
GT 20:27 Well, I will tell you another story. Chris Thomas is amazing, a man of God, a man of God. I mean, and I will say there were a few experiences I had with Pentecostals that were really cool. And so, maybe it’s the Pentecostals who are the cool ones? I’m not sure. Although Jeff [McCullough] and Kyle [Beshears] aren’t, I guess. But Chris has become a dear friend. And my mom passed away in June, this past year. We thought she was going to pass away two weeks before she did. And my brother had flown out from New York, because we thought she was going to die that day. She got COVID, and it sounded like we weren’t going to get to the hospital in time to say goodbye. And so, literally, my brother ran off the plane and I gave him a big hug. And he’s like, “I don’t care about my bag. We’re going to the hospital. We’re going now.” And so, we got to my car. We left his bag at the airport. He’s like, “I’ll get it later. I don’t care.” We just zoomed up to the hospital up in Ogden, which is about 45 minutes away. And Chris called me. And I had it on my car phone. And I don’t think I’ve told you this story. And Chris, I don’t know how he found out, because it was a new thing. I hadn’t told a lot of people, but somehow he [knew. He] must have talked to you.
Steve 22:17 I think I told him, yeah.
GT 22:19 And so he called and I just put it on the speakerphone in my car. And Chris said, “I’m going to pray for you.” And I didn’t know that he meant, “I’m going to pray for you right now.” And he just launched into this prayer. And it was a beautiful thing. I was so touched. I was so touched. And, honestly, it was really one of the most Christian, Christ-like things that’s ever happened to me on my show, ever. I love you, Chris. I love you. I just I’ve never been so touched by an evangelical, and it was just beautiful. It was beautiful. And, anyway, my mom made it for two weeks. And then she died about two weeks later. But that is just such a treasured memory. Chris, I love you. I love you. So, thank you so much. It really means a lot to me.
Steve 23:29 That’s great. I should have had Kleenex.
GT 23:32 I know. I didn’t know where we’re going this direction. I’m all about non-emotions, Steve!
Steve 23:37 Sorry, it happens all the time. I have Mormons say, “I watch your show because the Holy Ghost can show up at any minute.” And this is beautiful, dude. And this is a thing. You know, this is not an academic thing. It doesn’t always have to be.
GT 23:54 That’s where I’m comfortable, though.
Steve 23:55 That’s where you’re comfortable. And I tell people I’m comfortable where most people are uncomfortable.
GT 23:59 Right.
Steve 23:59. And the Lord showed me that, “Okay, it’s going to be scholarly, secular show. But then when I had some conversations about the Church of Jesus Christ, the church service we’re going to be visiting tomorrow, and heard a story about the Arlene Buffington hymnal, how was supernaturally created, downloaded. I mean, it’s amazing song. Watch my interview with Becky Tarbuck about it. I remember sitting on my couch right here, talking to the apostle Patrick McKay.
GT 24:26. Oh, wow.
Steve 24:27 And he’s telling me the story. And this is before I even started my channel. And he’s telling the story. And at that moment, I realized the trajectory of my channel just changed. I remember sitting down in the couch. I pace when I talk on the phone, and he’s telling me the story of Arlene, in the Church of Jesus Christ, and how he had an encounter, a Pentecostal encounter with tongues and stuff at their church. And he’s not even a member of their church. And I’m like, “Okay, this is familiar to me.” And so, I felt like, as a charismatic, who believes in the gifts, it’s like, I can have conversations with Mormons that the Presbyterian can’t have. And so, when I go and talk to people who say, “Well, God told me this.” I’m just talking to Mormons who’re like, “Oh, okay. Yeah, he probably did.” I mean, Mormons are so much more open to that kind of talk. That’s what I find that so accessible. And I don’t know, it’s a beautiful thing, just to have that moment that we’re able to share. Because I think that’s, and again, this wasn’t planned. And I always tell people, “If man didn’t plan it, then God probably did.” That’s how I look at it. Either way, awesome. I just thought that that’s the key thing, though. Christopher Thomas is the President Book of Mormon Studies Association. Christopher Thomas has six degrees, two doctorates. He’s way up there, dude.
GT 25:47. Oh, he’s awesome.
Steve 25:48. But I’ll tell you it’s not about up here {points at head} all the time, it’s a heart thing, too, that we also have to focus on. We are hardwired to be spiritual beings. And you shared that moment with him. I think that’s the key thing, is that I have, and you have had experience with people from the other side, the other, the baddie, and we share these profound moments with each other. And to me, that’s like God saying, “Hey, man, my grace, my love is so much beyond anything you could comprehend.” And so that’s kind of how I feel about that. But either way, I’m getting off my soapbox, because I’m interviewing Rick Bennett. And so, it’s funny, because then, Jeff McCullough comes into the picture, just out of the out of the blue.
GT 26:39 Who I wouldn’t know without you. I wouldn’t know Chris without you. But, Kyle, I would have known without you.
Steve 26:46. Kyle and all these wonderful people–and of course, we interviewed Kyle yesterday for the James Strang thing, which is really great. I guess, tell me some more about your interactions you had, like we had a great dinner with Kyle last night. We talked about a lot of cool things. There’s just a lot of great, wonderful things.
GT 27:01. I don’t mean to put any pressure on Kyle, but you need to write the paper I told you to write at the Book of Mormon Conference Association with Chris Thomas, as the president.
Steve 27:10. Absolutely. Chris, watch out, we’re going to have a great paper for you. Kyle is going to have a great paper for you.
GT 27:15. So, Kyle, here’s some pressure, you’ve got to write it, now. {Chuckling}
Steve 27:17. Absolutely. {Chuckling}
GT 27:21 But yeah, I mean, it is really nice to get around evangelicals who don’t treat us like we’re awful devils. It’s just nice to have real theological conversations, unlike my mission where I was, I mean, I was going to fight. Like, that story I told you about. I was ready to fight. You know, I was a young, dumb, immature missionary, as most of them probably are. There are some good ones.
Mormon/Evangelical Views of Cross
GT 27:58 I could tell you another story. The funny thing about this other guy, Elder Griffith, we’re Facebook friends, and he doesn’t even remember me. He was my companion for let’s see, I think 10 days. It was after I’d gotten transferred.
Steve 28:11. Okay.
GT 28:12 That guy, Mark Griffith–I’m going to have to send you this, Mark. And he doesn’t even remember me. We were companions for 10 days. And he’s like, “Do I know you?” And I’m like, “Yeah, you kind of changed my mission.” The one thing about Mark that I will say is, he lives up in Seattle now, I think. But he changed the way– he changed my heart. Because before, like that story I told you the beginning, I was there to win. I wanted to win the debate. I didn’t think that guy would join the Church, anyway. But Mark, with all those scriptures, those 180 scriptures that we had to memorize, Mark used them in a loving way. And I still remember, even, another story with that Beverly, she asked me why we don’t use the cross on our buildings. And I don’t remember exactly what scriptures I quoted to her. I quoted to her a few. And she was like, “You’ve just peeled away, like 40 years of my teaching.” It was amazing, because I didn’t do it in a in a way to win. It was an explanation of like, we use the scriptures to explain why. The main point of it for those of you, maybe, who are evangelicals and don’t understand, the way that Mormons view the cross is it was barbaric. It was awful. Would you have a gun or noose–people wear a cross to remember Christ, but we’re like, “Well, what if he was killed with a knife? Would you wear a knife on your neck, or would you wear a noose, like if he was hung, or you know, a car crashed or something?” It was an instrument of death. And so, we don’t want to–we’re grateful. We honor the risen Christ, not the dead Jesus. And that’s kind of how we think about it.
Steve 28:26. That’s how you see it, yeah.
GT 29:31. And so and so that’s why we don’t have crosses. I have nothing against crosses, personally.
Steve 30:18. Can I explain something about a Protestant view of the cross? Why we don’t have Jesus hanging on the cross?
GT 30:24. Cause it’s morbid?
Steve 30:26. No, it’s because, in our mind, it’s kind of a similar argument that you use against the cross. We don’t have crucifixes, because we believe– we don’t talk about the death of Christ. And the cross, the Crucifixion is about the death of Christ. We look at the empty cross, as, it’s about the risen Christ.
GT 30:48 Ah.
Steve 30:49 So don’t focus on…
GT 30:50 So, it’s a symbol of the resurrection, essentially.
Steve 30:51 Exactly. Yeah, the empty cross is actually, we’re not focusing on the death and the suffering, which in one sense is a legitimate way of venerating Christ. Right? Because his suffering, what he did at Calvary is what turned the world upside down, right. But I understand. That’s kind of like the old school Protestant view. Now you understand my family, Christian Reformed Church, they kind of viewed the cross as kind of like– they didn’t wear crosses. That was a Catholic thing.
GT 31:15 Oh, yeah.
Steve 31:15 So this has evolved, this has evolved. And actually David O. McKay, part of the reason he kind of started clamping down on the cross is because he kind of viewed it as being a Catholic symbol.
GT 31:24. Right.
Steve 31:25. And he was trying to mainstream himself with 1950s mainline Protestantism. So, there’s a lot going on here.
GT 31:31 There really is. I don’t think Mormons, especially, and I still use the term, I’m sorry.
Steve 31:38. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
GT 31:40. {Chuckling} We don’t understand how both Catholicism and Protestantism have affected our church, because they have. They have to, because we interact with each other, and we react.
Willie Grills
GT 31:54 I mean, the funniest story was Willie Grills, when he talked about the sacrament and the wine and why some Lutherans use red wine, some use white wine, and, originally, it didn’t really matter. And then somebody was like, “Well, the red wine represents Jesus’s blood, but the white wine is easier to clean up when you spill it.” And so, he was like, “Well, we’re using red wine. We don’t care that it’s hard to clean up, just because. And, about breaking the bread, that represents the body of Jesus. And we don’t want to have any crumbs, and so we’ll just have a little wafer. And how some the reactions to red wine and broken bread are reactions to some other church, and our church does the same thing.
Steve 32:43. Yeah.
GT 32:43. We always think, “Oh, we’re different than everybody else. We’re not.
Steve 32:47. Yeah, that’s true. Well, just so you know, Willie, is this close to [Catholic.] I think when he prays, he prays towards Rome, anyhow. That’s how the Missouri Synod works. They are so close to [Catholics.] Willie, I hope you appreciate that joke.
GT 33:01 Well, he’s practically Catholic. He doesn’t even mind being called Catholic.
Steve 33:04 Oh, sure. That’s within his theology. Yeah, absolutely, and, actually…
GT 33:08. He’s not an Evangelical, but he is.
Steve 33:10. Well, yeah. Absolutely. It’s a very confusing thing.
GT 33:15. Like Community of Christ, I would call them a Mormon, but they would say they’re not, but they are.
Steve 33:18. Yeah, I like that. It’s hard. Yeah, there’s a blurring of all these lines. You can’t put things in easy categories like that, you know? And so yeah, that’s cool. Like, okay, yeah, Willie Grills, that’s another guy. He’s a cool dude, by the way. We’ve had some zoom calls. He’s come on the show.
GT 33:33 He just had a new baby boy. Congratulations, Willie, and your wife. I wish I could remember her name, or I would say it.
Steve 33:40. And so you also interacted with Willie. And of course, he’s so cool, because then he freakin’ send you–I see a picture. He sends you all these books. And some stuff you never had before.
GT 33:49. I had said I wanted an ESV Bible, because I hadn’t heard of it, and he sent me one, just out of the blue. Nice, thank you, Willie. And then my gold Book of Mormon that’s on my shelf, Willie sent that to me. Somebody had donated it. And he’s like, “I don’t want this. Do you want it?” Yeah.
Steve 34:08 That’s great. Yeah, he’s really into Mormonism, too. He’s kind of another unicorn.
GT 34:12 Yeah, he really is.
Steve 34:13. And so yeah, he’s, he’s part of that posse, too.
GT 34:15 Although, we might have to come up with just endangered species instead of unicorns, right?
Steve 34:19. {Chuckling} Well, actually, okay, I think we’re making a comeback, though. You never know. But then you, of course, it was also cool, this past summer, we went to Nauvoo, Illinois.
GT 34:32. Yes. That was a lot of fun.
Hello Saints! Jeff McCullough
Steve 34:34. And that was fun. And you actually had the opportunity to meet Jeff McCullough at a dig site, where the Book of Mormon was printed, and we were recovering typeset from that printer. Can you talk a little bit about the Jeff and your interactions with him there?
GT 34:47. Yeah. Jeff’s a lot shorter and most podcasters are tall. No, I’m just kidding. But it was fun. I feel like Jeff is kind of starting a ministry to convert Mormons to evangelicalism. So, I’m always kind of like, “I don’t know if I like this guy.” But Jeff is super, super cool. I love–his tagline is “fight criticism with curiosity,” which is kind of what we do, too, as well. You know, we’re just curious about all the different restoration groups, and Jeff is just focused on the main LDS group. And I’m like, “No, I don’t want to talk about that. Let’s get into the Strangites and the Bickertonites and all the other manner of -ites.” But, Jeff is super cool. I’ll ask him about a tech question, because his production values are way better than mine. Oh, my gosh, you can tell he’s a professional. He shot past us–has he been going a year yet?
Steve 35:50. No, it’s in less than a year. I remember when I had…
GT 35:53. And he has 20,000 subscribers?
Steve 35:54. [He has] 30,000.
GT 35:54. Oh my gosh.
Steve 35:55. When I first had him on my show, he had, like, 700 something subscribers. I was two or three times bigger than him, so I was about twice his size. But I saw his growth and I’m like, “Oh, man, this guy is going to blow right past me real fast.” And a couple months later, he passed me up and then he went viral with that video where he went to the General Conference and that got a ton of views and a lot of ton of subscribers. And yeah, he’s kind of a phenom, now.
GT 36:19 Yeah, he really is and he’s super, super cool, except for he likes the St. Louis Blues. As a Bruins fan, I just can’t handle that. {Chuckling}
Steve 36:26. He’s St. Louis guy. I’m a Chicago guy.
GT 36:29. The Cardinals and the Cubs.
Steve 36:30. Yeah, absolutely.
GT 36:34. But yeah, I mean, Jeff, I’ll talk to you for a minute. Jeff, you are one of the most Christian people, Christian evangelicals, especially, that I’ve ever met. And I respect you a ton. And we’re going to get together sometime. It might have to be in Nauvoo, again, or something. I don’t know. But we’ll get together. I need to get you on my podcast. Maybe I’ll ride your coattails. Oh, yeah, definitely. Although he’s too much to the Orthodox crowd. I don’t know. I don’t know if my channel can handle that.
Steve 37:03 That’s great. I love it. Yeah, it is funny just to see how his approach. It’s a different thing. Like even I don’t– like we are Mormon podcasters. I’m not a Mormon, but I’m a Mormon podcaster. And he’s not a Mormon podcaster. He’s an evangelical who’s having conversations with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints via his YouTube channel.
GT 37:23. Right.
Steve 37:24 And I think it’s an interesting thing, because honestly, it’s part of Mormon history now. It’s part of the interactions with my camp, and your camp. And so now I feel like we’re making progress. It’s moving in this direction. And I think that…
GT 37:41. It’s moving in a good direction.
Steve 37:42 That’s what I’m saying.
GT 37:43 Yeah.
Steve 37:44 it really is. And that’s the thing–Rick, I have a lot of evangelicals who will criticize me, and will…
GT 37:52. Those are the jerk evangelicals [that] I’m talking about.
Steve 37:54 The jerk evangelicals. Dude, I will tell you, though, three of those jerk evangelicals who were frequent posters attacking me, all flipped and did a 180.
GT 38:02. Oh, really?
Steve 38:02. Once they started watching my show, and they started understanding what I was doing, they were respecting it. And this is the other thing. Evangelicals are watching my program to research Mormonism, and also to, “How do I talk to Mormons? How do I have these conversations?” And when they’re asking me these questions, it’s in a proselytizing way. As I just turn the tables and say, “Well, first of all, if you want to have a conversation with Mormon, ask them three questions. One, what is your favorite Book of Mormon story? Two, what is your favorite Bible story? And three, who is Jesus to you?” Have that conversation, because you’re going to have a much different conversation than if you’re going in Bible bashing and attacking and all this kind of stuff, and “Jesus and Lucifer are brothers,” you know, that kind of nonsense. Right? And so, they’re learning the actual history of the church, and the actual story that is the restoration, as opposed to this propaganda garbage that most evangelicals put out. So, I think there’s a light at the end of the tunnel here. I’m very hopeful that these conversations will lead us–and that’s the other thing, too, a lot of Evangelicals watch your program. You know, like Christopher was a big fan. Willie was a big fan. I was a big fan. And so, we’re learning about Mormonism from your channel. I had Thomas Monson’s niece come to me at one of my meetups. She says, “Don’t tell anybody who I am.”
GT 38:02 Uh-oh, you’re busted.
Steve 38:04 And she goes, I just want to let you know that I learning so much about the history of my church, watching your channel, watching an evangelical doing history on Mormonism. And I thought, “Whoa,” and, of course, I think a lot of evangelicals are learning from your channel. And I think that’s the beautiful thing about it is that we’re helping move the ball.
GT 39:39. Yeah, I mean, there are probably more than I know of. I don’t always like to give last names, but there’s a guy named Bob that I know is an Evangelical, a big supporter of my channel.[1] Love you, Bob. Willie Grills for a long time had watched my channel, had sent me that Bible I didn’t know, I didn’t have a clue who he was. And then I was like, “I think I need to figure out who this guy is. He’s a nice evangelical.” And so, it’s great, because–can I really say there are jerk evangelicals out there? That’s okay?
Steve 40:16. I run into them all the time.
GT 40:20. And I love knowing you and finding out that there are cool ones that aren’t out to attack us all the time. And, you just mentioned about proselytizing, because that’s one of my big things. I’m not here to say [my way is correct.] This is a way more personal interview than I usually do. I’m not here to convert anybody or to de-convert anybody. I’m just here to learn. I just want to learn. I just love learning this stuff. And some people, even Mormons, or ex-Mormons, I should say, get so tied up in, is it true? And they want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I can respect that if that’s your path. I don’t like it, but I can respect it. But do you need to rain on my parade? Are you trying to convert me to your way of thinking? Because one of the things that drives me crazy–there was a Reddit post. I’ve been doing this podcast for eight years now. And I can’t remember when it was posted, but they were like, “I guarantee Rick Bennett will be out of the Church in five years. Mark my words.” Well, I marked your words, and I’m still here.
Steve 41:36 Amen. Because what this world needs is another angry atheist ex-Mormon, right?
Steve 41:40. …says no one, ever.
GT 41:40 Exactly.
GT 41:46. Anyway, I just like learning and you don’t need to get into the true/false, whatever. I mean, I think you can do it in a in a healthy way, not in a way of, “Well, I’ve learned the truth. And you know, Mormons are going to hell,” whether you’re an evangelical or an ex-Mormon, it doesn’t matter.
Steve 42:05 Yeah, it’s the same.
GT 42:05. It’s the same approach and it doesn’t work.
Steve 42:07. It’s the same spirit.
GT 42:08. Yeah, exactly. And so, fight criticism with curiosity. Thank you, Jeff.
Steve 42:17. Yeah, and that’s the thing, I was talking to Kyle over dinner. And I just said, you and I are in a very privileged place, because we get to see the pearls, the pearls of the Restoration, that normal evangelicals, apologist guys with the blow horn aren’t ever going to see. And we get to hear Mormons let their hair down a little bit and chat and have conversations. I’ve had Mormons go to me, who–I have a lot of Church employees that watch my program.
GT 42:52 I do, too, actually.
Steve 42:53 Okay. And I had one Church employee, I didn’t even know he was.
GT 42:57 Same here, I think we’re talking about the same person.
Steve 42:59 Okay, yeah, well, maybe we are. But the same thing can be told about five different people. And when he introduces himself, he says, “I just want to tell you something. I believe that Jesus Christ died for us on the cross, and that there was nothing I could do to earn my salvation. It’s a free gift given to me.” And he says one of the most orthodox statements that I’ve ever heard. And then at the end of the conversation, I’m like, what do you do? He says, “I work in the Church Office Building.” And so I thought, “He ain’t going to tell that to Aaron Shalafalov.” Aaron Shalafalov is never going to have that conversation.
GT 43:41 He’s one of the jerk evangelicals. I love you, Aaron.
Steve 43:44. I love you, too, even though he avoids me and he won’t talk to me. Either way, I don’t care. He’ll do the drive by postings where he’ll question whether I’m an evangelical or not, but I offer him, “Let’s get on Zoom call and have a talk.” Crickets, so either way, I don’t like even wasting my time with people like that.
GT 43:57 I’ve had some interactions with Aaron, but I’m sure he doesn’t remember.
Steve 44:01 So have I. Either way. But the thing is, is that Kyle and I have had this conversation about how we have these beautiful moments that are spiritual. I had one here right in the lanai.
GT 44:15. Right now.
Steve 44:16 Yeah, right now, and there were tears shed here and I can’t give too many details because I don’t want to–but I had a pretty famous polygamist come here and introduce me to his wife. And they got married because of the interview I did with this person.
GT 44:36. Famous in Mormon Circles.
Steve 44:38 Yeah. And it was kind of like the interview was…
GT 44:42. Mormon History Nerd Circles, I should just clarify.
Steve 44:45. I call him the Ogden Kraut of the 21st century.
GT 44:48. Really?
Steve 44:49. I think so. I think he will be. But we had it we had a deep, emotional moment because my podcast was part of the reason why they got married. Now God, you helped arrange a polygamous fundamentalist thing. Tight?
GT 45:06. Through an evangelical.
Steve 45:07. Through an evangelical podcast. I just think to myself, “Okay, God, I’m just going to follow your lead, because I don’t know where to go.” I don’t know where this is going. But I had a sacred moment with a Mormon fundamentalist, and my mom and my Christian neighbor got to witness it. That’s a beautiful thing. And I don’t know. That’s why I think it’s so important. That’s why I think this is the thing, too, is Kyle, and Jeff, and Chris, and myself and many others, we are genuinely interested in the topic and in the people. And I think it’s that spirit is the right spirit. Kyle was talking yesterday, we were talking about it at dinner, where he was saying how, “Well, Christians have this attitude that…” Oh, he was talking about it in your interview. Right? Yeah, yeah. Where the Christians that think their attitude of Christ is well, “You’ve got to turn over the tables.”
GT 45:57 Right.
Steve 45:57 Turn over the tables. “I’ve got to fight and blah, blah, blah.” And Kyle made a brilliant point. He said, “The problem is that Jesus didn’t go to Samaria and turn over their tables. He turned over to tables to his own people. And also, Jesus spoke to the Samaritans.” Well, I’m thinking, what’s more Christlike than, [number] one, not going over to the Restoration and turning over tables, and two, talking to them. What is more Christlike than that?
GT 46:25. Yeah. Yeah, it was a great point.
Steve 46:28. That was a great point. See, that’s the thing. You’re learning. I’m learning. And then this is the thing. God told me, “Just remember, Steve, we’re all image bearers. We’re all fellow image bears. So, when you’re dealing with some, even people you don’t like, you just remind yourself: fellow image bearer. Just repeat fellow image bearer.”
GT 46:45 Well, and I will even tell another story. One of your neighbors, I don’t know his name, came over yesterday. And I thought that was amazing. He had talked about how he had had some marriage problems for 30 years, and he said, “If you’re not willing to die for the person you’re having a disagreement with, you don’t love them.”
Steve 47:06. Right. Yeah.
GT 47:09. And I was like, he goes, “Because Jesus died for people he didn’t love.” Or people…
Steve 47:15 Who didn’t love him, who hated him. He died for them.
GT 47:18 They hated him. Yeah, I was just like, that is profound. That was really cool. That was really cool.
Steve 47:24. Yeah. So that’s just what’s so awesome about this endeavor and how cool it’s been. Of course, it’s much more emotional than I expected.
GT 47:30. I know.
Steve 47:31. But you know, that just happens now and then.
GT 47:32. Well, you knew it would go there with Beverly, although I held my hopes up pretty good for that one. But then, my mom got me.
Steve 47:40. And so, I don’t know, Rick, I think this has been just a fantastic conversation. Was there anything else about your encounters and engagements with evangelicals you’d like to share with the audience?
GT 47:50 You know, I have to say, it’s been nice, Steve, because without your friendship, I wouldn’t know Jeff McCullough, I would not know Chris Thomas. And so, it’s been great. You’ve been a bridge for me, for the cool evangelicals, so keep sending them my way.
Steve 48:08. I sure will. It’s a two-way street. We’ll send guests to each other and all that kind of stuff. And so folks, I just want to ask you to leave comments in the description here. What did you think of the conversation? What do you think the future of evangelical and LDS conversations can and should look like? For the last 200 years, we’ve been the baddies doing the same thing. It ain’t got nowhere. Now that we are heading towards the 200th anniversary, well, 200th anniversary of the First Vision has passed. We’re heading for the 200th anniversary for the foundations of the church and the coming forth in the Book of Mormon. Let’s make this the decade where we build bridges, and we reconcile and we have conversations and we talk about the things that we have differences over, too.
GT 48:51. And in a kind way, because it can be done. Me and Steve are doing it all the time.
Steve 48:55. Absolutely.
GT 48:56 Nor to pat ourselves on the back or anything.
Steve 48:59 It’s all him {pointing to the sky and chuckling} So yeah, I want to thank you, Rick, for coming on the program today.
GT 49:05 Well, thanks for having me in your home, Steve, I really appreciate it.
Steve 49:07 This is awesome. I never imagined this. I’m fanboying this whole thing. This is so awesome. So folks, I just want to remind you don’t forget there’s links in the description, for those of you who’d like to financially support the channel, whether it’s on Patreon, whether it’s on PayPal, whether it’s the merch store, Mormonbookreviews.com. I had a coffee mug. I don’t have it. And so, you can buy stuff on our merch store, all that good stuff. And thanks for joining us in beautiful Florida here in January in my lanai. And thanks, Mom, she’s not here, for putting up with this and making breakfast for Rick this morning. Thank you for everything and your patience for allowing these guests to come into our home. This is the most Christian thing is to be kind to the stranger, but you’re not a stranger anymore, a friend.
GT 49:07 Thanks, Mom.
{End of Part 1}
[1] I was mistaken. It turns out Bob is Jewish.
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