Bruce R McConkie is famous for advocating that the Catholic Church is the “Great & Abominable Church” mentioned in the Book of Mormon. Is that offensive to Cristina Rosetti, a Catholic? She’ll respond to that in our next conversation. We’ll also talk about religious violence from the Crusades to Mountain Meadows. What does she think of that? Is religion in decline, or is it readying for another upswing? Check out our conversation…
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Gospel Tangents
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Great & Abominable Church
Cristina 01:36 Aren’t I also the greatest of abominables?
GT 01:39 (Chuckling) Oh, we haven’t gone there, have we?
Cristina 01:43 The great whore of Babylon.
GT 01:45 Do you have any thoughts on the Book of Mormon there, and the Catholic Church?
Cristina 01:48 Of that particular part?
GT 01:49 Yes.
Cristina 01:50 No. Not really. No, I mean, Bruce R. McConkie said it to me/my people.
GT 02:01 And you weren’t offended?
Cristina 02:04 He’s allowed to think that. I mean, here’s the thing. It’s not like the Catholic Church has high views of the LDS Church. Right? It’s not like we’ve been just so kind to LDS people that like…
GT 02:22 A little blowback is okay.
Cristina 02:23 Yeah, it’s fine. I’ll take it. It’s fine. I mean, the Catholic Church has historically had a very strong opinion about Mormonism. So, of course, the LDS Church would have a strong opinion about Catholicism. The one reason I do think it’s a little strange that they butted heads so ardently, is because Mormons and Catholics were both viewed very negatively in the 19th century.
GT 02:49 Oh yeah, absolutely.
Cristina 02:50 Do you know, that great picture of the Capitol. And there’s a crocodile and alligator and one is the Mormons and ones says like “Romanist.” It doesn’t say Catholic. Maybe it does say Catholic. But we’re the Papists. And you’re the Mormons. Both were hated so vehemently by Protestant America. The fact that they couldn’t get along, either you’d think that they would have been like, “Well…”
GT 03:18 Well, you’re only like, 100 times bigger than us.
Cristina 03:22 1.3 billion.
GT 03:24 Maybe 1000 times.
Cristina 03:27 I mean, there’s 16 million.
GT 03:28 Yeah, 100, I guess I was right.
Cristina 03:30 16 million LDS people.
GT 03:33 Officially.
Cristina 03:35 I have never said that number to an LDS person who hasn’t been like, “Well, on the rolls, but in [reality…] Just take it. Just take 16 million. I mean, but that’s the same for Catholicism.
GT 03:48 Yeah. There’s only like 900 million?
Cristina 03:52 I don’t know. I don’t know. But I mean, because they track numbers differently. It would be [different.]
GT 04:00 You can say you’re Catholic and never go to church. Maybe you can say that with Mormons, too, I guess. But…
Cristina 04:08 The lived religion. But I mean, what is it?
GT 04:12 How many active Catholics are there really?
Cristina 04:14 I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t know how many active LDS there are. How would you know this answer?
GT 04:22 Well, John Dehlin, said it’s about 30%.
Cristina 04:25 Do you know he got that number?
GT 04:26 He used to work at the church.
Cristina 04:28 Oh, so he actually would know.
GT 04:29 Yeah. I mean, but those are old numbers. So I don’t know.
Cristina 04:32 I mean, I don’t know how many practicing Catholics. I don’t know, my church is pretty bumping on Sunday.
Addressing Religious Violence
GT 04:40 So one other question for you, and then I’ll let you go, because I know I’ve kept you a long time. And it’s going to be another Catholic question is, earlier in the conversation you were talking about how the Reformation kind of offended you.
Cristina 04:56 I wouldn’t say offend. I was just, I think I was taught, or I think from my learning about generic history, I had a very different vision of what it was, than…
GT 05:08 It was a lot more violent than you expected.
Cristina 05:10 Yeah, I just learned [that] someone nailed something to a door, which later I find out, might never, probably didn’t happen.
GT 05:17 It didn’t happen?
Cristina 05:18 He probably just gave it to his bishop, like, here you go. But I had learned a very standard…
GT 05:24 That’s just anti-Luther propaganda. (Chuckling)
Cristina 05:27 There’s anti-Luther literature? I had been told [that] there’s this guy named Luther. I don’t think I’ve really learned about John Calvin. I certainly didn’t hear about Zwingli. And so, I think it was just a very stark like, wait a minute. This is not what I thought this was. And I mean, every religious group was violent. This is not to say that Catholics weren’t, of course. But I think I had been kind of given as kind of more…
GT 06:00 Well the Catholic church was the one who persecuted Luther. Luther, he was fine.
Cristina 06:07 I don’t know if he was fine with his very antisemitic documents that he wrote. I don’t think he was fine. But I just had been given kind of a particular picture of what the Reformation was. And turns out that’s not what it was.
GT 06:20 Right. Well, my question was, tying it back to Catholics, when you looked into the Crusades, did you feel the same way?
Cristina 06:31 Well, I mean, I don’t love violence, religious violence. Just like I wasn’t here to justify or make excuses for the sex abuse crisis. I’m not going to make excuses for the attempted territorial expansion that cost the lives of thousands of people. I’m just not, in general, I’m just not interested in trying to excuse violence, in the name of religion. I’m just not here for that. And I one hundred percent recognize that a lot of people do leave religious traditions over the history. And I think this is something that the LDS Church also deals with, all the time, of people being uncomfortable with the history, of being uncomfortable with the past and leaving. That’s absolutely something that happens in Catholicism, as well. And so, I do think religious traditions generally need to talk about it and need to have very transparent, honest conversations about the aspects of the faith that have caused great harm. I think that’s really the only way forward.
GT 07:43 Okay. You know, and I mean, our conference we [attended], it’s the Juanita Brooks Conference. Her big claim to fame is the Mountain Meadows Massacre. So, I mean, you would never excuse any religious violence, Mormon, Catholic, Reformation, Protestant.
Cristina 08:00 No! Why would I?
GT 08:01 Yeah. A lot of people [feel like they have] got to defend the faith at all costs.
Cristina 08:05 Well, no. I mean, I’m not here to [do that.] No. We’re not going to do that. I’m not going to do that.
GT 08:14 Do you think that some people use (and I’ll just pick multiple examples) Mountain Meadows, Crusades; even let’s go with Islam a little bit with the jihad. [Do people use these events] as just a club to bash religion?
Cristina 08:32 I mean, that is one of the interesting things is that the Crusades were empires. This was the Ottoman Empire versus Christendom. These were terrible wars over territorial expansion. And so, I mean, that’s also definitely part of the conversation. But anyway, continue your story, your question.
GT 08:51 Do people use that as a club unfairly against religion?
Cristina 08:57 I mean, maybe. But also, in those stories, there was a literal club. People died. I mean, in general, I’m really interested in talking to people who have disagreements about the theology or the doctrine. But if someone is hurt or harmed by the fact that people were murdered, I can’t take that away. That happened. You know?
GT 09:26 I heard a joke by John Hamer recently. He said, there’s a story [that some people say.] “I want a church that ordains women and is gay friendly, and progressive and all these things.”
GT 09:42 He’s like, “Check, check, check. Well, you should join the Community of Christ.”
GT 09:47 They’re like, “No, I just want to bash religion.”
Cristina 09:51 I mean, people have been harmed by religion. That’s also very much a thing. That’s just a reality. I think. that two things that Catholicism has that Mormonism doesn’t, not in terms of being right or wrong, but just in terms of how we look at the history. The first is historical distance. That’s a big thing that Catholicism has that the LDS Church doesn’t. Mountain Meadows Massacre happened very recently, in the grand scheme of history. The Crusades happened a long time ago. And granted, they’re still talked about. They’re still history, but the historical distance is something that the LDS Church has not received the benefit of.
GT 10:33 Two hundred versus 2000 years.
Cristina 10:34 Yes. That’s different. The second is, a lot of people don’t learn about Mountain Meadows Massacre. Juanita Brooks didn’t learn about the real history of it when she was young. A lot of people don’t learn about that. I learned about the Crusades in Western Civ. So, it wasn’t ever a surprise. So, I know there’s a lot of talk about informed consent in ex-Mormon circles, and about that whole conversation, which I think is really an important conversation to have. I do feel like I joined Catholicism, with informed consent. I joined it in the middle of the sex abuse crisis. So, that was not being hidden from me. I mean, I couldn’t get away from that news. I had learned about the Crusades in Western Civ. Spiritual formation I did in my six months of catechism. I do think that that is something that is crucial.
GT 11:34 So, give us 1800 more years, and we’ll be okay.
Cristina 11:36 Well, yes. But I think there’s a difference between (and this just gets into how churches operate, I guess.) But I think there’s a difference between convert numbers and convert retention. And I think Orthodoxy is having its own moment. Right now, a lot of people are joining orthodoxy. To do a plug, there’s a great book by Sarah Riccardi Schwartz, who wrote Between Heaven and Russia, about all the people converting to Orthodoxy right now in the United States. I think Catholicism and Orthodoxy get less adult converts. I don’t know the difference in retention, but I would wager the retention is pretty good among people who convert as adults to those two traditions. I’m not sure what the retention rate is for LDS people. But I think there’s a [difference.] I’m sure the LDS gets more converts globally, among adults. And so, I think there’s a difference with that, too. And I think it comes with learning the history and being told upfront, and having full knowledge of what you’re getting into lends to higher retention, ultimately, as well. So, all that to say, I think there is a benefit to saying this is what the Mountain Meadows Massacre was. This is what happened. And just being upfront with that history and having those hard conversations upfront.
Religious Resurgence After Decline?
GT 12:49 I know a lot of people say [that] we kind of have waves. You’ve had the first Great Awakening, which was in the 1700s, the Second Great Awakening, which was around 1830s, Joseph Smith time. I’ve heard some people refer to 1950s as a possible third great awakening. And it seems like now, especially the–I don’t know if I want to say ex-Mormon, but all churches right now are suffering losses, every church. And so, is this just another dip until our next our fourth Great Awakening? Do you see that cycle?
Cristina 13:35 Possibly, I mean, and that is something that I think is forgotten in the story of awakenings, as most of them came right after a decline. The First Great Awakening is a huge revival. But it comes on the back of puritanism dying out. There are no Puritans anymore.
GT 13:55 I thought they were Congregationalists.
Cristina 13:59 But the Puritans are gone. No one’s a Puritan. No one says, “I’m a Puritan.”
GT 14:02 Right.
Cristina 14:03 They’re gone. No one’s naming their kid Prudence something or other. There’s a bunch of–I mean, people name their kid Prudence, that’s fine. But the Puritan names that are like–have you ever seen those names that are like, “The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away Smith.” “Prudence is the best virtue among all virtues, also, temperance Johnson.” The Puritan name–you don’t see that anymore. And it’s because there was a severe decline right before revival started. So, I think that could be the case. It also could be that people are just leaving religion.
GT 14:40 Do you see this as permanent?
Cristina 14:42 I don’t think I see most things as permanent in the historic trajectory, just because we have seen such ebbs and flows of how things operate in the world. I do think, I mean, I mentioned the rise in Orthodoxy. We are seeing an upswing in people converting to Orthodoxy. One of the things that I’m interested in watching, I think Gen Z is its own thing that we just don’t know the trajectory of what’s going to happen with that. But one of the things that’s been interesting to watch in terms of trends is, we also saw similar talk, when millennials were leaving. There was all this talk about millennials are leaving the church. And that’s true, but a lot of millennials are coming back. And that’s where the growth in Orthodoxy is coming from. I mean, I left religion. I came back a Roman Catholic. And so, I think we’re seeing…
GT 15:29 You’re a millennial?
Cristina 15:30 Yeah. So, I think we’re seeing…
GT 15:33 Gen X.
Cristina 15:36 The Gen, I don’t know what Gen Z is doing. So, I don’t think I can speak for that. But I think it’s going to be interesting to see when it’s all said and done, is the rise in Orthodoxy and the number of people converting to Orthodoxy, are those millennials coming back? Is that going to change the religious landscape? There have been, I think it’s like the Diocese of like, I don’t know, Maryland or something. I saw on Twitter that they have 1500 people joining just that one diocese this year, which is wild. So, I think that might be an upswing in some traditions, but, I mean, time will tell. I don’t like to make giant predictions about permanency.
GT 16:18 You’re a historian, right, not a future teller?
Cristina 16:20 I am not a fortune teller. But I mean, I don’t know. I don’t know. I think some religions will do better than others. But I think also we’re seeing an increased polarization and global—maybe you’ve noticed that we’re becoming increasingly polarized.
GT 16:36 What? Newsflash.
Cristina 16:39 In the realm of politics, are we becoming a more polarized nation? But I think I think we’re also seeing that with religion, that people are either becoming…
GT 16:49 Is politics the new religion, at least in America?
Cristina 16:53 I don’t know. But we are we are seeing people, like with the rise in Orthodoxy. Like, why are people joining Orthodoxy?
GT 17:06 So, orthodoxy is on the ascent?
Cristina 17:08 We’re seeing a lot of people joining, yeah. And, we’re also seeing a lot of people leave religion. So is that just the polarization, another iteration of our polarized world? Maybe. I think that’s an interesting way of looking at why people are either leaving or joining Russian Orthodoxy. Time will tell, but I think that’s also an interesting way to think about what’s going on.
GT 17:36 Well, very good. I think that’s a good note to end on.
Cristina 17:39 Thanks, Rick.
GT 17:40 So I really appreciate you Dr. Cristina Rossetti for being here on Gospel Tangents. Do you have any idea when your book on Joseph Musser is coming out?
Cristina 17:49 It’s either going to be the last–I’ve heard either the last quarter of this year or very early next year. It’s in copy edits. So page proof should be four months.
GT 17:57 Who’s publishing it?
Cristina 17:58 University of Illinois. So, it’s part of the Mormon thought series that Joe Spencer and Matthew Bowman are doing.
GT 18:04 Oh, sweet.
Cristina 18:04 Yeah. So I think they have–what are the ones that already came out?
GT 18:10 I don’t know.
Cristina 18:11 Eugene England, Kristina Haglund wrote on Eugene England.
GT 18:14 Oh, okay.
Cristina 18:15 Michael Austin wrote one.
GT 18:16 Oh, so it’s not a real big book.
Cristina 18:17 No, it’s a thin one. But then, Bryan Buchanan, and I have edited the diaries of Joseph Musser, as well as the correspondences. That’s a big one.
GT 18:26 And that’s through Signature.
Cristina 18:27 Signature is going to publish that.
GT 18:28 Okay. Oh, so you’ve got two books coming out?
Cristina 18:32 Yes, eventually. Signature, we’re still, I mean, we signed the contract. And we’re just finishing doing all of the annotations.
GT 18:41 Okay.
Cristina 18:42 So it’ll be an annotated Documentary History.
GT 18:45 Very good. Very good. All right. So I’m going to have to have you on for both books.
Cristina 18:49 We’ll see.
GT 18:52 All right. Well, I really appreciate you being here on Gospel Tangents. Thanks a lot.
Cristina 18:55 Thanks so much, Rick.
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Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission
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