How did a Born Again Christian convert to Catholicism while studying Mormonism? Dr Cristina Rosetti answers. Check out our conversation…
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Catholic Conversion
GT 00:44 All right. Well, so that’s interesting to hear. Because I was always curious about [how you became Catholic.] Well, we did miss the story. And I don’t mean to make this a conversion story. But how did you get involved in Catholicism?
Cristina 00:57 How did I become Catholic? I started doing my exams for grad school, my doctoral exams. We have to do three exams. We had to do a major field, minor field, and a theory method exam. My major field was American religion. My minor field was Christian history. And I started reading from the beginning, Christian history.
GT 01:25 Okay.
Cristina 01:27 The ancient stuff was cool. The medieval stuff I kind of just got through. Now, I think the medieval period is rad, but at that time…
GT 01:35 It was boring.
Cristina 01:36 It was tough. It was a rough go. Reading, like, the rule of St. Benedict. I was like [bored], that’s fine. Now, I have, like, a Saint Benedict medal on my phone. I don’t know. Now, he’s great.
GT 01:49 I think the name Bennett comes from Benedict.
Cristina 01:53 Well…
GT 01:53 I don’t know if you knew that.
Cristina 01:54 He’s rad.
GT 01:54 [It means] Benevolent.
Cristina 01:55 St. Benedict is rad. That’s an honor.
GT 01:58 I don’t know anything about him, but we might have to learn.
Cristina 02:03 He has a medal. The whole exorcism prayer is on it.
GT 02:05 Oh, wow.
Cristina 02:07 But yeah, so I started doing that. And I got to the Reformation. And I read a book, called Christ’s Churches Purely Reformed: A Social History of Calvinism. And there was a section in it, where it’s talking about the radical reformation. And the radical reformation was rough. It was violent. It was rough. I mean, there were these stories about people decapitating statues and feeding the Eucharist to dogs and mocking it. And it was a really difficult, rough period. And I was upset at the radical reformers. I was angry at Thomas Muntzer.
GT 02:47 Okay.
Cristina 02:47 Why? I have no reason to be mad at these people, at all. I’m not invested in this story.
GT 02:52 We don’t even know anything about the Reformation until Luther. Is he before Luther?
Cristina 02:56 He’s after. Luther initiates what’s called the magisterial reformation in 1517. After Luther, there’s this big question in the minds of a lot of people in Germany, where people think it’s really great that you are starting to change the religion and our place in the church. But what are you going to do if anything about our temporal position in the world? There was a drought in Germany at this time. Things were really difficult, and a lot of peasants specifically called on Luther to help them temporally, not just spiritually. Luther says, “No.” Luther tells people that are really suffering, that your freedom and your salvation is found in God. The rest of it, you’re on your own. It initiated what’s called the Peasants War.
GT 03:55 Luther initiates the Peasants War?
Cristina 03:57 No. These peasants end up revolting against their temporal situation. Thousands of peasants die in this war. And Luther is very hands off, but someone named Thomas Muntzer steps in. And Thomas Muntzer is a radical who says, “We will fix your temporal state, as well as your spiritual state, at any cost.” And the radical reformation is really marked by this very, as the name says, a radical way of trying to change the world. Luther has initiated a spiritual change to the world. The radical reformers were going to change the temporal world, as well. This manifests in reformers like Ulrich Zwingli. He is in Switzerland. He makes art illegal in Switzerland. He puts Catholics in [jeopardy.] I mean, if you can’t change Catholics, if you can’t reform them, you can kill them. And so, Zwingli starts going on [rampage.] He starts starving out Catholics in Switzerland. And so, the radical reformation is a rough time in history.
GT 05:02 Could we equate it–because Mormons are kind of familiar with the Crusades? Is this like a crusade against Catholics?
Cristina 05:10 Well, the Crusades, I mean, the Crusades were really for territory. The Crusades were looking to claim Constantinople and Jerusalem. The Fourth Crusade is the reason why the East and the West will never reunite.
GT 05:30 Really?
Cristina 05:32 Yeah, fun fact, the East and the West, after the split in 1054. There’s a split, for those who don’t know. The Great Schism.
GT 05:39 I think most Mormons know that.
Cristina 05:40 Okay, the Great Schism in 1054, there were two attempts at reconciliation. In the 1400s, there was a final attempt at reconciliation between the East and the West, and it almost worked if it hadn’t been for the Fourth Crusade, where the West attempts to take Constantinople.
GT 05:57 Is it Istanbul or Constantinople?
Cristina 05:59 It was, at the time, Constantinople, that’s why I said Constantinople.
GT 06:01 Well, there’s that song, too, right?
Cristina 06:03 Right, and so the East was like, you just can’t…
GT 06:08 You can’t take Constantinople.
Cristina 06:10 No, why isn’t the West just staying in their lane? But…
GT 06:14 And, so the Catholics and the Orthodox really fought over Constantinople and that’s been the reason why they have never been able to reconcile?
Cristina 06:25 That and then the ecclesiastical big differences. The East argues that–which is really truthfully, in line with a lot of Christian history. The East argues that bishops should have jurisdiction over a region. So, there’s a bishop of Constantinople. There’s a bishop of Rome. Now they’re called patriarchs. There’s a patriarch over Russia. He’s been in the news a lot. The big difference is that the West argues that the Bishop of Rome has universal jurisdiction over the entire church.
GT 07:01 AKA, the pope.
Cristina 07:03 The pope, his name is Francis.
Cristina 07:06 Whereas like patriarch, the Patriarch of Constantinople, Patriarch Bartholomew doesn’t really have jurisdiction over Russia. So, he’s not like the Pope of the East. But though that’s kind of a really big difference. And then we have a difference in creed. The East doesn’t acknowledge any of the dogmatic…
GT 07:23 Well, the East still does, the Eastern Orthodox Church still does infant baptism by immersion, which is crazy to me. There’s a YouTube video on that.
Cristina 07:32 Yeah, they do. Baptism, thought, Lutherans do infant baptism. Presbyterian…
GT 07:35 But it’s sprinkling now.
Cristina 07:37 Yeah. I don’t know what the Oriental Orthodox do. I mean, a lot of people do infants. Most people do infant baptism. Anglicans do.
GT 07:47 Yeah, actually, I remember talking to Kyle Beshears, and he said, he’s a Baptist preacher, and he says, “Us dunkers are actually the minority.”
Cristina 07:54 Yeah, I mean, the Anabaptist position of baptizing adults, like the believer baptism, that’s a fairly new thing in history, but it comes out of the radical reformation. The Anabaptists come out of the radical reformation.
GT 08:10 Okay.
Cristina 08:11 Which is like Mennonites, Amish, all of them, Hutterites. But, yeah, so I mean, I read that. I was mad.
GT 08:11 You were just ticked off at all those doggone Protestants.
Cristina 08:17 I was just mad. I was just mad. I just thought it. I don’t know. I was just upset. And then in a perfect storm–and I really want to emphasize that it wasn’t just the history, because I know a lot of…
GT 08:32 You should have become a Quaker. They were all peaceful. Right?
Cristina 08:34 Well, this is why I’m a Catholic, though. It’s a perfect storm. At the same time that I’m reading for this exam. I go on a cruise.
GT 08:43 Oh? To Italy.
Cristina 08:46 {laughs}. Yes.
GT 08:46 I love Italy. Italy is the best.
Cristina 08:48 I go on a Mediterranean cruise. We got a good deal on this cruise. And I finished reading this book. I get on this boat. And I got like an advanced [cruise.] I booked ahead to be able to get a ticket to the Sistine Chapel. That was cool.
GT 09:03 Yeah, it is cool. I’ve been there.
Cristina 09:04 Of course it’s cool. And while I’m there, I’m like, “Well, I might as well get in line to go and St. Peter’s.” I didn’t really know what was in there.
GT 09:12 Yeah, me neither.
Cristina 09:13 I went in. So I get in line, go inside. I see the Pieta and I’m like, “What is happening?” I see the altar. And I’m like, “This is it.”
GT 09:24 Wow.
Cristina 09:25 And I’m like, “This is why I was angry. This is why I was so mad at the Reformation.” And for those who don’t know, when you go, you walk up to the altar and there’s the altar. Then there’s stairs that go under it. And there’s a little sign that says, “Here lies Peter, the first Pope.” I was like, “There he is. The first Pope.” The person I was with…
GT 09:46 Was he black?
Cristina 09:49 What?
GT 09:50 No, here’s what I mean by that.
Cristina 09:51 Because he’s decayed?
GT 09:52 Because he’s all decayed. Some of those Catholic churches, especially in Italy, I remember, they were mummified remains.
Cristina 09:59 Oh.
GT 09:59 So they would just turn black from, I don’t want to say decomposition but like [oxidation.]
Cristina 10:04 Yeah, so you can’t see. Peter is in a tomb.
GT 10:07 Okay, so you can’t see him. Because they have glass coffins of these priests, or I don’t know what they are.
Cristina 10:13 John 23
GT 10:14 But, they are really gross looking, if you ask me.
Cristina 10:18 Those are the great saints of old.
GT 10:19 I’m sure they are. But it’s just [gross to look at.]
Cristina 10:22 John 23’s body was on [display.] It was out. I mean, his tomb is glass. So, I saw John 23, who was the pope that did Vatican II. I saw him. John Paul II, I couldn’t see him, but I saw his tomb. But all the Pope’s are underground. They are in the crypt. And Peter is the big one. But yeah, so it’s “Here lies Peter, the first Pope,” and I was like, “There’s the first pope. His name is Peter.”
Cristina 10:49 And the person I was with was like, “Cristina, you don’t believe this.”
Cristina 10:56 And I was like, “I’ve never actually believed anything more in my whole life.”
GT 10:59 Really?
Cristina 11:00 Then Peter is right there. And he’s the first pope. Sign me up.
GT 11:04 So this was your second. This is Born Again 2.
Cristina 11:05 This was my second born again experience. So, I mean, this one, fortunately, I think the wisdom of the Catholic as well as the Orthodox tradition, is the formation period is pretty long. So, whereas when I became Pentecostal, I was like, “I want to be this.” And they just baptized me a week later. When I became Catholic, I signed up for RCIA, which is a Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults, which is the formation period. And I started RCIA, which is a weekly class. You have a sponsor that you have to meet with. I started in September of 2015. And I was initiated in March of 2016 on the Easter Vigil, which is the Saturday before Easter Sunday.
GT 11:08 Now, my friend got baptized into the Episcopalian Church, and it was Easter weekend. I guess that’s a common time to get baptized is Easter weekend.
Cristina 11:58 Yeah. So that is the tradition of the church. You are what is called a catechumen. So you are in formation. You go through classes, et cetera.
GT 12:18 And these aren’t like just six discussions. These are like year-long classes, or how does that work?
Cristina 12:22 Well, so I did September to March. It really is up to the discernment of the prelims,
GT 12:27 So that’s just six months.
Cristina 12:29 It was just six months. So the orthodoxy is a longer period. That is something that the Orthodox Church does. They really try to do a year to a year and six months. I did September to March. It was basically, it was a lot of history. It was a lot of learning about the doctrines. It was a lot of reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It was a lot of learning what it was to be Catholic, learning the creed. That was something I had no idea we had to learn.
GT 12:58 The Apostles Creed?
Cristina 13:01 I didn’t learn the Apostles Creed in RCIA. I learned that after, because it’s the first thing you say to start the rosary. So that’s something I learned later. I had learned the Nicene Creed, because that’s the one we say in Mass every Sunday. So, I learned…
GT 13:16 So, when you say the Creed, it’s the Nicene Creed?
Cristina 13:17 Yes. So we say the Nicene Creed every Sunday. And the Apostles Creed, I end up saying it every day, because I do the rosary every day.
GT 13:27 So, you’re very religious.
Cristina 13:29 I’m very religious now. Yeah. Yep. And ultimately–so then you do…
GT 13:33 Do you go to Mass every day, because I know Catholics who do that.
Cristina 13:37 I don’t go every day. No, I go on Saturday night. I’m not–but because of the Mountain Meadows massacre visit…
GT 13:44 You couldn’t go.
Cristina 13:45 I had to go on today, this morning. But I usually go to the Sunday vigil, which is Saturday night. And then I go the days of obligation, which in the United States, there’s very few, the days of obligation are every Sunday, and then Immaculate Conception, Christmas, and Ascension, but sometimes we transfer that to Sunday. And then when there’s like a saint that I really like, or a day that I really like, I’ll go.
GT 14:14 St. Patrick?
Cristina 14:16 No, no, I went for Aquinas recently.
GT 14:20 I found that I’m 1/5 Irish. And I’m like, I guess I should be more excited about St. Patrick.
Cristina 14:30 I didn’t go for St. Patrick. He’s not my guy. There are some saints that I go to Mass on their day. I have a saint. I choose a saint every year to learn about and to learn the prayers to. This year, it’s Thomas Aquinas, so I had to do that. But no, I don’t go every day. But I do the rosary every day.
GT 14:54 Well, you told me something off camera, that you wear a veil to the church. I was surprised to hear that.
Cristina 15:00 I do wear a veil to mass.
GT 15:00 Why, I mean, I kind of remember a little bit like you’re supposed to cover your head. So what is significant about that?
Cristina 15:11 I mean, I know in other traditions like in the LDS Church, anyway, there was like a lot of debate around women’s veiling.
GT 15:19 In the temple.
Cristina 15:20 In the temple. It is a little different, in that it’s not required to wear a veil. It is an old tradition. So, if you were to go to an Orthodox Church today, a lot of women still veil. There’s still a focus on that. Most women in the Catholic, all women in the Catholic Church veiled until Vatican II, which I want to note for any Catholics watching, Vatican II was a legitimate council that I think made really great reforms.
GT 15:49 When was Vatican two?
Cristina 15:50 It was in the 60s. There’s a lot of, I don’t know, Catholics have their own internal conversations.
GT 15:56 You have your ultra-conservative Catholics that are like, “We don’t like Vatican II, we still need to veil,” that kind of a thing.
Cristina 16:02 Right. It’s a personal devotion that I’ve felt called to, and so I do it.
GT 16:11 I mean, is there a religious reason or just a tradition that women should veil?
Cristina 16:16 Yeah, I mean, there’s a long standing tradition in the church of women veiling when they’re in front of the sacrament, in front of the Eucharist. Catholics believe in the Real Presence, believe in Transubstantiation, through Transubstantiation. The East and the Western Church both believe in the Real Presence. Catholics explain it through Transubstantiation, which I think is rad, because I like Thomas Aquinas, though. But there’s a long-standing tradition of veiling before the Blessed Sacrament in kind of mirroring Our Lady Mary’s devotion. I have a pretty intensive devotion to Our Lady. I was consecrated to her in September 2021.
GT 17:01 Our Lady Mary?
Cristina 17:03 Yeah, mom. Yeah. Mary.
GT 17:05 Mary, the Mother of Christ.
Cristina 17:07 The mother of Jesus. We have there’s like a, this is a tangent.
GT 17:11 Well, that’s what we’re all about. I warned you.
Cristina 17:15 Yeah, so, I did a consecration to Mary, which is a pretty old tradition of being consecrated to Jesus through His Mother.
GT 17:23 Now, wait a minute. Notre Dame means our lady. So is that a reference to Mary the mother of Jesus?
Cristina 17:30 It is.
GT 17:32 I always wondered. Why did they call our lady?
Cristina 17:34 Because our Lord is Jesus.
GT 17:35 Because I actually took French in junior high.
Cristina 17:37 Our Lord is Jesus and Our Lady is Mary.
GT 17:39 I did not know that. I guess I’m dumb. I wonder how many people know that Notre Dame meant the mother of Jesus?
Cristina 17:49 My students know.
GT 17:52 (Chuckling)
Cristina 17:52 Well, we were talking about Notre Dame, the church. And I was like, Notre Dame of Paris means Our Lady of Paris. It’s about Mary. Yeah, so Our Lady is Mary. But there’s like a set– I don’t know how to explain this. There’s like a tradition of doing consecration, which is being set apart, to have Mary, intercede for you. And it’s a 33-day period of prayers that you learn and of devotions you learn and then it ends with = a big celebration and a big prayer that you are consecrated to Mary on one of her holidays. So, I was consecrated to Mary on Our Lady of Sorrows, who is the Mary that I–I don’t know. She’s the version, not version, but the Marian iconography that I’m most compelled by. I really love Our Lady of Sorrows. And so just for all these reasons, I just started being, and I like it. I’m into it. A lot of people aren’t into it. It’s also great.
GT 18:57 But you just do that when you’re at church?
Cristina 18:59 Yeah. I just do it at mass.
GT 19:00 Do some (can I say) good Catholics do it outside of church, as well? Like, they think they should always be?
Cristina 19:07 No.
GT 19:07 It’s only for church.
Cristina 19:08 Yes, there are some orthodox women that veil all the time. But no, it’s pretty much just at church. And then if I ever go to Eucharistic Adoration, then I wear my veil, which is when we– Eucharistic Adoration is when they put the Eucharist in a monstrance, which is like a gold thing. And people = go and do prayers for it. So, anytime that I’m in church, I guess.
GT 19:38 Very good. Very good. Wow, that was a deep dive.
Cristina 19:42 Into my Catholicism.
GT 19:43 Yeah, I didn’t expect that. But this is good. I will just confess. Mormons/Latter-day Saints, we can be very [insular.] We focus on us, and we really don’t care what Catholics do or what Protestants do, and we don’t know any of this stuff. I wonder. I’m going to have to do a poll. How many of you knew that Notre Dame meant Our Lady and it referred to Mary, the mother of Jesus? I did not know that. I’ve wondered that for years why it was called Our Lady.
Cristina 20:15 I don’t think most people know Notre Dame means Our Lady.
GT 20:18 I don’t think so either. But I took French.
Cristina 20:20 Yeah. So I mean, you would, but I think outside of–I don’t think most people would know that Notre Dame is Our Lady. And then if they do, I mean, maybe they would know that it means Mary.
GT 20:31 Put it in the comments. I’m curious if you knew that.
Cristina 20:33 What other lady?
GT 20:33 And, also, if you didn’t know that.
Cristina 20:36 What other lady is there?
GT 20:38 I don’t know. Heavenly Mother? No, I’m just kidding.
Cristina 20:44 Like, who would Our Lady have been?
GT 20:46 I don’t know. It never made sense to me.
Cristina 20:48 It could have been, like, the queen of France.
GT 20:49 I guess I didn’t really give it much thought because you know, I’m still focused on Mormonism.
Cristina 20:54 It could have been, like, the queen of France.
GT 20:55 Yeah, I figured out I had something. Well, I never understood the Fighting Irish of Notre Dame. Why are we using a French name for the Fighting Irish? It doesn’t make sense to me.
Cristina 21:07 So, Our Lady of Noc.
GT 21:10 Like NOCK?
Cristina 21:11 Knock, in Knock, Ireland.
GT 21:15 Not the Loch Ness Monster?
Cristina 21:18 I don’t actually, I don’t know where Knock is compared to Loch Ness. But Our Lady of Knock is the Mary. So, we have a tradition of Marian apparitions, Mary appearing.
GT 21:33 In toast and in the clouds.
Cristina 21:35 Well, but we have ones that are like important, like, Our Lady of Guadalupe, the one that people see her a lot in the United States.
GT 21:41 So Our Lady of Guadalupe would refer to Mary of Guadalupe.
Cristina 21:45 Well, she’s the Marian apparition that appeared in Mexico, a long time ago. But it’s a significant apparition because 6 million people converted because of the story. But Our Lady of Knock is the Marian operation that appeared in Knock, Ireland. So, I’m sure maybe there’s a connection between Notre Dame. It’s the only time…
GT 22:08 You’re not an Irish Catholic? How can you not be Irish Catholic, Fighting Irish, St. Patrick?
Cristina 22:13 Our Lady of Knock, St. Bridget.
GT 22:15 You’re an Italian Catholic?
Cristina 22:16 No. I guess now.
GT 22:19 Italian/Argentinian Catholic.
Cristina 22:21 I guess now, but yeah. Catholic.
GT 22:29 Well, I am glad that I got to see the Cathedral of Notre Dame in Paris before the fire. I’m going to have to go back and see–the one thing I remember…
Cristina 22:39 Oh, no.
GT 22:40 It was just funny, because I don’t speak French. And they just kept “Shhh. Silence, si vous plait,” which means, will you be quiet, please.
Cristina 22:54 France’s churches are, I know there’s one pilgrimage site in France. It’s a church in Paris. It’s where the miraculous medal is made, which is this little medal. You are not allowed to…
GT 23:06 It’s not a Young Womanhood medal.
Cristina 23:08 No.
GT 23:09 You didn’t get one of those.
Cristina 23:10 Actually, I wonder if the Young Women’s medal was designed after the Catholic medal tradition.
GT 23:14 Do they look similar?
Cristina 23:16 No. But, like, Catholics wear medals.
GT 23:19 I always thought they had a cross.
Cristina 23:21 Some people do. I’m just curious. I mean, I don’t know the history of Young Women’s medallion. But Mormons don’t wear medals outside of that.
GT 23:31 CTR rings.
Cristina 23:34 Yeah. Anyway, you can’t talk in that church. You’re like…
GT 23:37 Now, there’s a dissertation topic for somebody.
Cristina 23:39 The medal tradition of Mormonism. Yeah, I don’t. Yeah, I’d be curious whether Young Women’s medallion, the history of it, because men don’t have an equivalent.
GT 23:51 No, because we got the priesthood. We don’t need it.
Cristina 23:53 You don’t need a medal. You heard it here, first, from Rick Bennett.
GT 23:56 That brings up another topic. Let’s go there.
Cristina 23:59 You heard it. I just want to say that everyone heard it here first, that men don’t need medallions because they have the priesthood. Are you saying that the Young Women’s medallion is a consolation prize? That’s literally what it sounded like, Rick. The Young Women’s program is cool.
GT 24:13 I’m not an official spokesman of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Maybe I should just preface that.
Cristina 24:18 Yikes. But I think the Young Women’s medallion is cool. The Honor Bee is rad.
GT 24:25 The Honor bee?
Critsina 24:26 Yeah.
GT 24:26 What’s that?
Cristina 24:27 It’s the other medal that young women get, if you the Honor Bee.
GT 24:32 I don’t know about that. I’m sorry.
Cristina 24:33 Rick never went through the Young Women’s program.
GT 24:35 I did not. I apologize.
Cristina 24:39 Yeah, I think the Young Women’s program is cool.
Ordain Mormon/Catholic Women?
GT 24:40 But you know. Let’s shift gears a little bit. We’ve been talking a lot about Catholics, which is great. I think it’s great. I’m just clueless and I admit I’m clueless when it comes to Catholicism and Protestantism, but this is why I’m learning. Kate Kelly, a few years ago, made a big deal with Ordain Women. I do know that there has been a movement in Catholicism for ordaining women. Do you have an opinion on that in either Mormonism or Catholicism or both?
Cristina 25:13 Well, Mormonism is not my tradition.
GT 25:14 So you don’t care.
Cristina 25:16 It’s not that I don’t care. It’s that I’m not making definitive claims on what a religion that’s not mine should or shouldn’t do.
GT 25:25 And maybe I should say [that] the Young Women’s medallion would be more analogous to Boy Scout/Eagle Scout kind of a thing.
Cristina 25:31 Oh.
GT 25:32 So maybe that was the better thing than priesthood.
Cristina 25:34 That’s fair. Yeah, so the Catholic Women’s Ordination Conference is very old. I think, if I remember correctly, I think some of the Ordain Women from Mormonism, I think some of the Ordain Women people met with the Catholic Women’s Ordination Conference, to talk about things. I know that there’s a big conference. I don’t remember the name of it. But I do know that some LDS women attended and there was some dialogue between Catholic women and Mormon women about that. To my knowledge, though, there hasn’t been a whole, I don’t know, I haven’t seen a whole lot of movement. A lot of Catholic women will show up, occasionally, to things. I know that the Catholic Women’s Ordination Conference was welcomed to a synod to meet with or to be part of a synod, which is kind of a big meeting, that the Catholic Church is currently having, to discuss issues in the church. But I don’t think there’s going to be any traction with that.
GT 26:35 You don’t think there shouldn’t be women priests?
Cristina 26:37 Well, no, I didn’t say that. I just said [that] I don’t think there’s going to be traction in the church.
GT 26:43 It’s not going to happen.
Cristina 26:45 I mean, there is precedent for, as so many brilliant scholars have noted. There’s absolutely precedent for women as deacons in the history of Christianity. There’s really not a whole lot of debate about women…
GT 27:00 You mean Phoebe, Priscilla, people like that.
Cristina 27:01 Yeah, there’s really not a whole lot of debate about women’s leadership roles in the historic church, at least in the ancient period. The medieval period had a–we see less of that. Although, women were doing rad things, like Catherine of Siena, who I mentioned to you off camera, she is one of the reasons why the papacy went back to Rome from Avignon, for a while. So women were doing rad things. So, I can see the Catholic Church moving in that direction of eventually having Deacons be women.
GT 27:33 What would be a deacon’s role?
Cristina 27:36 So, Deacons in the Catholic Church can be married. We have some priests that are married. Shock and Awe. Our ordinariate priests, some ordinariate rite priests are married. Deacons’ role is to proclaim the gospel and so at Mass, deacons will do the Gospel reading, which lay people can’t do or don’t do. Deacons do that. Deacons also help prepare for the celebration of the Eucharist. They kind of assist.
GT 28:09 So, they prepare the sacrament, basically?
Cristina 28:12 They like help lay it out. So, they can’t do the–they can’t do the…
GT 28:16 They can’t bless it.
Cristina 28:18 They can’t do the consecration prayers, no. That’s very uniquely the priest.
GT 28:21 But they set it up.
Cristina 28:22 Yeah, they’ll bring out everything.
GT 28:25 They’ll bring out the wine, the bread. Or do you use crackers?
Cristina 28:28 We use wafers, that are actually in Utah. They’re made by the Carmelite nuns in Salt Lake. They make the wafers here. So, they participate in the Eucharistic Prayer, somewhat. So, I can see a potential for that. I’m not fully convinced that the Catholic Church will see women ordained in the same way that I don’t imagine the Orthodox Church doing that. I mentioned my boyfriend’s an Anglican priest.
GT 29:00 And he lives in America.
Cristina 29:01 He’s in Canada.
GT 29:02 Oh, he is in Canada. Oh, wow.
Cristina 29:03 Anglican Church of Canada.
GT 29:04 Long distance.
Cristina 29:06 Long distance. I know that the Anglican Church of Canada, and the Eastern Orthodox Church, a long time ago, were in talks about being in communion with each other, which feels so wild, when he told me that. And that ended and a lot of part of that was women’s ordination was part of that big kind of contestation. So yeah, I don’t know. I mean, I think there’s a lot of people that are very hopeful for it. I’m not opposed to it in any way. I think would be great.
GT 29:39 You think would be great if Catholic woman could be ordained?
Cristina 29:41 I do. I don’t have any opposition to the ordination of women. But I think the LDS Church would do it first.
GT 29:52 Before the Catholic church?
Cristina 29:53 Yeah, I think there is more of a historic precedent for LDS women to have priesthood authority than Catholic women. I mean, were women formally ordained in the LDS Church? A lot of brilliant people who know way more than me and who are way more brilliant than me, have written a lot about this. I think that comments about Joseph turning the keys to the Relief Society sisters and turning the keys to Emma are compelling evidence for the Relief Society being more than something auxiliary and having some kind of priesthood. I don’t see the same historic evidence of that being something in Catholic history. So, we’ll see. Time will tell.
GT 30:39 Very good, and opinions on whether LDS should ordain women?
Cristina 30:43 I mean, I don’t…
GT 30:44 It’s not your church, but…
Cristina 30:45 It’s not my church. It’s not my church. I know a lot of women who want it. But I mean, I know a lot of women that say they don’t, and I know that that position, I know there’s like, a lot of back and forth on why someone would say they don’t, but I know a lot of women who do, who do want the priesthood and I think there is compelling historical evidence. Time will tell.
GT 31:10 Historical compelling evidence for what?
Cristina 31:12 For women in the LDS Church having priesthood at some point. But whether or not it will happen, and I know that there’s a lot of also discussion about how in the temple, LDS women exercise priesthood. So, I think there are avenues for it in the LDS Church and in ways that, really, I don’t see in the Catholic Church. Because there is no equivalent. We don’t have an equivalent to the temple, really, in the same way. And so, the way that a lot of LDS women talk about exercising priesthood authority in certain spaces, we don’t have that. Like I don’t exercise priesthood authority. I don’t exercise any authority in my church. None. So, I have no authority at all.
GT 31:59 Why do people become nuns, speaking of none?
Cristina 32:01 Fun fact, I looked, I considered. I discerned for a minute, just a minute. We have two kinds of nuns: contemplative nuns and we have more service-oriented nuns or sisters. Religious sisters are rad. Religious sisters are rad if you’ve ever met them.
GT 32:26 What’s the difference? So service is going to be like, Mother Teresa. We’ll help the poor, that kind of thing?
Cristina 32:32 Mother Teresa or we have a lot of like nuns who teach in schools or work in hospitals or do various kind of, live in the world, kind of do stuff in the world. Cloistered nuns, you don’t see them.
GT 32:47 Because they’re cloistered.
Cristina 32:48 Because they’re cloistered, because they live lives of prayer. They’re cloistered.
GT 32:52 They just pray all the time?
Cristina 32:53 Yeah, like the poor Clares. There’s a convent in Arizona, called Our Lady of Solitude. And the poor Clares live there. And they, I think they start praying at like, four in the morning. I actually don’t know. But the Carmelites start prayer very early in the morning, they pray most of the day. They have to do the full liturgy, the hours. They do Eucharistic Adoration. They go to Mass. They do–it’s a lot of work. But I mean, I think one of the interesting things about religious life, which is kind of our word for consecrated people or people who live lives of poverty, chastity and obedience. One of the interesting things that is the case historically, is during the Reformation, the Reformation removed a lot of convents. And all of a sudden, women only had one choice: Marriage. That was it. And there was kind of this mourning of any alternative option for women. And monastic life for women was an avenue of independence and an avenue for not having to be bound to being a wife and being a mother. Like I mentioned, there were some really rad women in the history of the church. Again, Catherine of Siena wrote a bunch of letters and got the papacy to go to Rome.
GT 34:14 We need to talk about Catherine of Siena.
Cristina 34:16 But, she couldn’t have done that if she was a wife and mother. She had…
GT 34:20 So, she moved the papacy from where to Rome?
Cristina 34:24 There was a whole weird moment where there was three papacies.
Cristina 34:26 Yeah, yeah, there was one in Pisa, one in Rome, and one in Avignon.
GT 34:31 Avignon, France?
Cristina 34:32 Avignon, France, and she was really instrumental in saying, “Stop it,” and convincing everything to just be in Rome, in the 1300s. So, she was just, and there’s a lot of historic debate on these people. But there is…
GT 34:49 And she is your SHE-ro. Is that right?
Cristina 34:51 She’s my patron.
GT 34:52 Your patron, that’s what the word is.
Cristina 34:53 My patron. Yeah, she’s my, she’s the patron of Europe, and me.
GT 34:58 The patron saint of Europe and Cristina.
Cristina 35:02 Yeah, she’s my patron. She’s rad. She was a mystic. She was a stigmatist. Her head is on display and Siena, which is one of the main reasons I chose her. I learned about that, and I was like–she wore Jesus’ foreskin as a ring. She had this mystic vision where Jesus, like, places his foreskin on her finger, as like a betrothal.
GT 35:21 That sounds really gross.
Cristina 35:22 She becomes she becomes a Dominican.
GT 35:26 What’s a Dominican?
Cristina 35:27 It’s a kind of priest. It’s an order, but, she’s part of a woman’s order of Dominicans. So the Dominicans, today, I kind of in her lineage. She was rad. It was great. And she was my patron, but she had, she didn’t have, necessarily, authority, like in the same way a priest would have. But she had a way of moving through space and operating within the Catholic church that was not really accessible to women after the Reformation. And so religious life for a lot of women offers an alternative. I mean, a lot of people don’t want to get married. And I know from an LDS perspective, where marriage is such a focus and family life is such a focus, that, and this is a huge difference, I would say, between Catholicism and the LDS Church. A lot of missionaries lead with, “You can be with your family forever.” And I get told that and I’m like, “That’s just not a selling point, in the same way.” Because like, the Catholic…
GT 36:31 You don’t want to be with your family forever?
Cristina 36:32 I didn’t say that Rick. It’s just not– like the theology is just very different. And so, because we just don’t have that emphasis. So for a lot of people who, I mean, one of the hardest things with LDS theology is what do you do with people who don’t want to get married? What happens?
GT 36:49 They’re sinners, no. (Chuckling)
Cristina 36:51 What happens to them in the afterlife? Like how do you attain Celestial?
GT 36:55 They’ll get married polygamously, no, just kidding. (Chuckling)
Cristina 36:58 These options. Like, what do you do? Like, I don’t want to be a polygamist one day.
GT 37:05 You don’t?
Cristina 37:06 No.
GT 37:08 What’s wrong with you? (Chuckling)
Cristina 37:09 I absolutely don’t want that. Like so what happens to me? You know, like the idea of like requiring a family for exaltation that’s such a foreign [concept.]
GT 37:18 Well, you have a boyfriend. You’re working on it. You’ll be fine. Right?
GT 37:21 We’ll seal you after you and your husband die, and then you’ll be a happy, forever family.
Cristina 37:26 I don’t want my temple work done. Sorry. I just don’t. I’m Catholic. So, there’s such a kind of–a lot–religious life was an alternative to that, that you could be a teacher.
Catholic Sex Abuse Scandals
GT 37:43 So, if somebody who didn’t want to get married can become a monk or a nun?
Cristina 37:49 It was an option. I mean, for nuns who are doing a lot of service-oriented work, for teachers who are XYZ…
GT 37:56 But some of these monks seem to like sex.
Cristina 37:58 Monks, I mean, a lot of people like sex.
GT 38:02 And priests, I guess. Because we have the Catholic sex scandals. We have all of these…
Cristina 38:09 I mean, I want to be really clear, though, that the abuse of children isn’t sex. I just want to be super clear with that. It’s a grave atrocity. And it’s inexcusable. It’s a grave sin our church has done.
GT 38:25 So correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems like, if I remember, right, and I’m not a Catholic history scholar at all. But it seems like at first it was okay for priests to be married.
Cristina 38:38 Oh, yeah.
GT 38:39 And then the problem was, when they died, what happens to the estate? Is that the Catholic Church’s estate or is it his family’s estate? And the Catholic Church was like, “We’re tired of all these little estate problems.”
Cristina 38:50 Also , what happens to their spouse?
GT 38:52 Yeah. And so that’s why they said priests can’t be married anymore.
Cristina 38:57 Yeah, I mean, it was definitely–and this is why orthodox priests can be married, still. They can’t be Bishops.
GT 39:04 But they’re not Catholic.
Cristina 39:05 Well, we have, our ordinariate priests are married, some of them.
GT 39:08 Your ordinary priests?
Cristina 39:09 Ordinariate.
GT 39:10 Ordinariate.
Cristina 39:11 We have, there are 24 rites of Catholicism. The ordinariate rite, so we have like the Byzantine rite, the Melkite rite. I’m part of the Latin rite, because I’m a Western Catholic. The ordinariate rite was a rite that was designed to try to bring Anglicans into the Catholic Church. And so if you were an Anglican priest, and you were married, and you become Catholic, you can stay married and a priest, and they will, the Catholic Church will…
GT 39:43 But that’s not fair for people who are lifelong instead of these darn converts.
Cristina 39:47 Yeah, but some people, I mean, there are people who disagree with the ordinariate. That’s a whole other debate.
GT 39:54 So, they’ll accommodate conversion, essentially. But I mean, there’s a criticism of the Catholic Church, and…
Cristina 40:03 Yeah, there’s a lot of them.
GT 40:05 (Chuckling) That the reason why we have so many sex abuse scandals…
Cristina 40:10 The great and abominable.
GT 40:11 …is because they can’t get married and clearly, they have urges just like every other man.
Cristina 40:15 But, I, again, want to be clear that not being not being able to have sex is not an excuse for abuse, or rape. And that has, like, been something…
GT 40:27 I mean, you’ve got gay priests, right?
Cristina 40:29 Sure. But gay people aren’t rapists or abusers.
GT 40:33 No, I understand. But I mean, I’ve heard…
Cristina 40:36 I mean, I think these are, there’s a lot of attempts to explain the problem with Catholic sex abuse. And I think a lot of the explanations for it end up falling into those categories, which, I mean, we have seen really egregious attempts to argue why abuse happens by saying, “Well, men just need sex, otherwise, they’ll become rapists.” No, we cannot….
GT 41:04 We can’t excuse it that way. But I mean, that’s where a Mormon is going to say, that well, this whole celibacy thing is just stupid, because we’re all biological animals. I mean, we’ve heard about priests having sex with nuns, and Mormons will chalk that up to just more Catholic corruption or whatever those tripes are. But, would you support it if Pope Francis said, “Hey, priests can be married. We’re going to set up rules around inheritance.”
Cristina 41:40 Well, I’m not a Protestant. So, if the Pope does something, I’m not going to fight it. Because I’m a Catholic. If I went against the Pope on something like that, I’d be a Protestant.
GT 41:51 Well, but the whole birth control thing. Catholics aren’t supposed to use birth control, right?
Cristina 41:59 No, because of Humanae vitae.
GT 42:01 And so, a lot of Catholics use birth control.
Cristina 42:05 Yeah they do.
GT 42:06 So, they ignore what the Pope says, right? Are they good Catholics or bad Catholics?
Cristina 42:11 Humanae vitae is interesting, because there are ex, like some Catholics will make the argument that encyclicals are not infallible. This is a more complicated conversation, Rick. Because then I have to explain an encyclical and the nature of Papal Infallibility. But, I mean, there’s, yeah, I mean, there’s, it’s shocking, but religious people do their religion in a variety of ways. I mean, that’s what’s so interesting about religion is that religions will say things, but the way religions are lived, the lived experience of religion is always diverse and different, necessarily, is sometimes different than the institution dictates. I mean, there are a million ways that people are Mormon or are LDS. There are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who will only wear white shirts to church. There are…
GT 43:00 Are you saying something about me?[1] (Chuckling)
Cristina 43:04 There are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who are very strict on the Word of Wisdom. There are members of the LDS Church who drink kombucha.
GT 43:13 What’s kombucha?
Cristina 43:14 Fermented tea, or drink tea.
GT 43:17 Fermented? Is it alcoholic?
Cristina 43:19 It’s very minor amounts of alcohol. It’s not like wine or beer. But, like a very small amount. But even like that, like does that count as alcohol? There are LDS people who drink coffee, because the Word of Wisdom doesn’t mention the word coffee.
GT 43:33 They’re not good Mormons, though.
Cristina 43:35 Well, but they’re Mormons. I mean, I’ll just say, yes, there are people who are part of the Catholic Church who use birth control. There are Mormons who drink coffee.
GT 43:47 Okay.
Cristina 43:48 And there are absolutely Catholic priests who are abusive, and a grave sin of the Catholic Church is covering it up. And that is inexcusable. And I have no justification for that.
GT 44:04 You’re not going to defend that in any way.
Cristina 44:06 No, I’m not even going to try to. It’s a grave sin that the church has done and should apologize and continue to apologize [for.]
GT 44:16 So, Francis comes to you and says, “Cristina, I’m thinking about letting priests married, what do you think?” You’d be like, “I’m totally on board with that, Francis.”
Cristina 44:25 Yeah, I mean, if he wants to. I mean, I’m not against priestly celibacy. I’m not convinced that celibacy causes abuse, because I know many celibate people who don’t abuse people. I’m not convinced that it is a cause. Correlation is not causation.
GT 44:50 Right.
Cristina 44:51 And so, like, am I opposed to priestly marriage? No, I mean, again, my boyfriend’s a priest. Not in the Roman tradition, but my boyfriend’s a priest. He’s a good one.
GT 45:05 Is he Anglican? Remind me, again.
Cristina 45:08 Anglican Church of Canada.
GT 45:09 Okay, well, so they can get married. That’s fine.
Cristina 45:10 But, I mean, I’m clearly not like, “Priests marrying, get out of town,” right? I mean, I’m dating a priest. So, I’m not opposed to priestly marriage. But I’m also not opposed to priestly celibacy, at all.
GT 45:30 It just seems like, from my point of view, and I usually don’t give my opinions. But it’s the Catholic Church, so I’m not going to get excommunicated. It doesn’t matter. This whole idea of…
Cristina 45:43 We do that very rarely.
GT 45:45 (Chuckling)
Cristina 45:45 Fidel Castro was excommunicated.
GT 45:48 Oh, he was? I didn’t know that. But this whole idea of the reason why priests have to be celibate, is so that they don’t have families, so we don’t have these inheritance problems and deciding what’s the church’s [property]? What’s the family’s [property?] It seems like overkill.
Cristina 46:08 Well, and so there is sense now that most priests adopt the monastic tradition of being married to the church and being married to a family is hard. It’s hard. And I mean, I sympathize for…
GT 46:26 Because they spent so much time at church, it’s hard to be a good husband.
Cristina 46:29 I sympathize for, like, if you’re an LDS man, and you’re a stake president–so you’re married. You have a family. You’re doing a lot of service to the institution, and you’re, like, a dentist, or whatever you are. Right?
GT 46:43 Yeah, you’re busy.
Cristina 46:46 You’re a busy person. And, at some point, and I think there are people who, of course, do that incredibly well, I’m sure. But something’s got to give at some point. Maybe it’s your dental business. I don’t know. But that’s tough. That’s tough. And Catholic priests do a lot of church. There’s a lot of church that happens at Catholic churches. We don’t just do church on Sunday. Church services happen multiple times every single day. And, so, at some point, that would be tough. And I mean, my parish, for example, has Eucharistic Adoration on Fridays, overnight.
GT 47:32 Overnight.
Cristina 47:32 You can’t be a dentist.
GT 47:33 Like, in the middle of the night?
Cristina 47:35 Yeah. So you can’t be a dentist and a husband and a dad of five and be at the church overnight.
GT 47:44 Well, I understand, but I think most people would be like, okay, so you want to be a full time priest. Pay him a salary, same as we pay our apostles or whatever. They have families, they…
Cristina 47:57 Ours also aren’t paid, though, in the same way. I mean, they get housing stipends, but with the vow of poverty, that also is tough to be a husband and father, if you’re taking a vow of poverty. How do you how do you be a husband and father with a vow of poverty?
GT 48:14 Why have a vow of poverty?
Cristina 48:16 Sole devotion to God, Rick.
GT 48:17 Make a living wage…
Cristina 48:19 Sole devotion to God. Rick coming in for the living wage! Rick for president!
GT 48:25 (Chuckling) We’ll give Catholic priests you know, this is me advising the Pope, and I’m sure he cares what I say. But, you know…
Cristina 48:31 He watches Gospel Tangents.
GT 48:32 I’m sure he does. (Chuckling) But give him a fair wage. He can have a family. This vow of poverty just seems kind of silly. Whatever, just let it go. Just be like a Mormon.
Cristina 48:53 You could do that. But we’ve been doing the vow of poverty, chastity, obedience for a long time. And the Jesuits take four vows. They take a vow of obedience to the papacy. So, I mean, they’re different institutional systems. Given how the current institution stands, I think it would be very challenging, with a vow of poverty, and with the labor that priests do, to also be a father of seven.
GT 49:22 Birth control. (Chuckling)
Cristina 49:23 We don’t do birth control. I just think it would be, I don’t know.
GT 49:27 We got over that in our church. We allow birth control.
Cristina 49:30 The LDS Church used to, I mean, most churches were until the 1930s. That’s how most churches were.
GT 49:38 Well, there wasn’t good birth control until the 1930s, probably.
Cristina 49:41 I mean, I actually don’t, I’m not a scholar. That’s an Amanda Hendrix Komoto question.
GT 49:45 Oh, it is? Taylor Petrey would know, too.
Cristina 49:48 Taylor Petrey would also know. Nancy Ross, I’m sure, would know. She knows a lot. But, yeah, I mean, I think the different religions, it turns out different religions have different ways of doing them. You heard it here first.
Catholic Attends LDS Single’s Ward
GT 50:03 (Chuckling) All right, well, we’ve definitely dived way deeper into Catholicism than I ever anticipated. So, you are a Mormon scholar. Will Bagley got mad at me when I called him a Mormon historian. “No, I’m a historian of Mormonism.” You’re a scholar of fundamentalist Mormonism. I mean I know you read Rough Stone Rolling, but how did you dive into fundamentalism?
Cristina 50:29 So, I read Rough Stone Rolling, and the LDS Church today looks different than it did in the 19th century.
GT 50:36 What? Another newsflash.
Cristina 50:40 I’m just full of revelations. It looks different.
GT 50:46 You’ve got a pretty good, corny, Mormon sense of humor, even yesterday. Can you tell that joke again?
Cristian 50:55 What joke?
GT 50:56 Remember. We both got to the ballroom, and there were no chairs. I’m helping you set up the chairs. And what did you say?
Cristina 51:05 I asked if I had the priesthood now, because I was doing the chairs.
GT 51:08 Oh, no, you welcomed the priesthood for helping with the chairs.
Cristina 51:12 Oh, but I also asked you. I was like, “Does this mean I have the priesthood now?” Oh, no I think I asked Joey that. And he was like, “Yes, you do.” Okay. I don’t think he did. I don’t know. But yeah, like, yeah, I needed the priesthood’s help.
GT 51:21 You’ve got corny, Mormon joke cred now.
Cristina 51:23 I remember when I moved, I moved apartments from, just two different places in Salt Lake City. And I have a group of friends that I’ve met in Salt Lake that I became really close to, and I texted everyone. I was like, “Hey, I really need help moving, if anyone’s free on Friday.” So, two of the men in the group, one of them was like, “Yeah, I’ll be there.” And the other ones like, “Well, I don’t want to lose out on my exaltation, so I’ll be there.” And I was like, “That’s a funny joke.” (Chuckling) And so yeah, I mean, it’s a long-standing joke, but, everyone helped him with the chairs.
GT 51:51 So, Mormon Fundamentalism.
Cristina 51:58 Yeah, so I read Rough Stone Rolling. Obviously, the Church has changed in terms of its practice in the last century. Two things corresponded at the same time. I realized that the LDS Church–so actually let me back up. I was interested in Mormonism. I talked to my advisor. And she was like, “Have you met Mormons?” And I was like, “Well, here we go.”
GT 52:26 No?
Cristina 52:27 So actually, I walked across the street to Institute.
GT 52:31 Oh, really?
Cristina 52:32 That’s my first encounter with the LDS Church. And I asked the Institute director, if I could go to Institute?
GT 52:39 Were you Catholic at this time?
Cristina 52:40 I was not.
GT 52:41 You were just still in the agnostic phase.
Cristina 52:42 I was still agnostic, but I said, “Can I go to Institute?” And he was so kind. We’re friends on Facebook.
GT 52:48 Oh, yeah.
Cristina 52:50 Yeah, he was great.
GT 52:51 He would have been like “Golden investigator here.”
Cristina 52:53 I know. But I signed up. And the Institute that I went to was interesting, in that there weren’t very many LDS people. There were only three people who were LDS. You got free parking. You got lunch on Thursdays, baked potato bar, which I loved going to.
GT 53:09 Wait. Three in your class?
Cristina 53:12 There were three LDS people who were in my class, yes.
GT 53:15 Okay. So it was just a tiny class.
Cristina 53:17 No, it was pretty big. There was only a couple. The only classes that were offered were Book of Mormon, New Testament. And they offered twice in two years, they offered “Foundations of the Restoration.”
GT 53:28 This is at Riverside.
Cristina 53:29 Yeah. So they didn’t have like “Eternal Families,” because there wasn’t a need to run that class.
GT 53:34 So it was a tiny Institute, it sounds like.
Cristina 53:35 There wasn’t a need to run like a D&C class. There wasn’t a need to run any of those, so it was small.
GT 53:42 Okay, so were there more people that were not LDS that were attending these Institute classes?
Cristina 53:46 Oh, yeah, there was more non-LDS people for sure.
GT 53:47 Really? I’ve never heard of that.
Cristina 53:49 Yeah. [They came] for the parking.
GT 53:51 Oh.
Cristina 53:52 It was a lot of athletes, especially, who would use it for the free parking. Yeah. But the director of it was great.
GT 54:02 They had to pay like five bucks for the parking for the class room. Right? At least when I was going there [at Weber State,] it was like five bucks for the class.
Cristina 54:09 We got free parking, and the classes were free.
GT 54:12 Oh, we had to pay at Weber State.
Cristina 54:14 At Institute?
GT 54:14 If I remember right. I think so.
Cristina 54:16 For us it was free.
GT 54:17 In Utah.
Cristina 54:18 It was a big sell.
GT 54:19 Yeah, I mean, parking can be a big sell at any college.
Cristina 54:22 Oh, yeah. I mean, and lunch on Thursday.
GT 54:24 Yeah.
Cristina 54:25 It was usually a baked potato bar.
GT 54:27 Yeah, those are good.
Cristina 54:28 I had never had a baked potato bar until this and it was [great.] Yeah, I really liked it. But I signed up for Book of Mormon. I had never read the Book of Mormon. And one of the interesting things…
GT 54:43 I think Steve Pynakker still hasn’t read it. Jab!
Cristina 54:48 You’ve got to do Moroni’s promise, Steve. One of the things I really appreciate about my Institute, though, because there were so few, the Institute director, he actually spent quite a bit of time going through and asking people like, what are some stereotypes you have about Mormons? People will just be like, “I heard this.” And he would spend significant time just hearing a lot of wild ideas about his own people and going through them. And I really appreciated that. Because that’s hard to do, to stand up and say, “What are stereotypes you have about me?” And then just kindly and generously go through them. To do that with grace is hard. [He did that] for a long time/for days on end. And so that was really [great.] He was the first LDS person I really spent time talking to.
GT 55:36 Wow.
Cristina 55:37 He’s great. And so I did that. I started going to a YSA ward with some of the people in my class. And then as I was doing this, I was reading more about the LDS Church. And two things converged.
GT 55:53 So you understand YSA culture really well, then, I would think.
Cristina 55:57 I mean, I’ve never been a YSA. I mean, I have been a young single adult, but I have not been in the programming for YSA’s. But no, I mean, yeah, I went to Institute. I went to Institute almost every day.
GT 56:12 Wow.
Cristina 56:12 And I went to a YSA ward several times. It wasn’t until I eventually spent a little over a summer in Utah and I went to church every Sunday in Provo, the Freedom Stake.
GT 56:30 In Provo?
Cristina 56:31 I’m not going to tell you the ward, because I don’t know if the bishop wants that. But I was in the Freedom Stake. So any Provo listeners who know the Freedom Stake, [you can visit.]
GT 56:38 Why were you living in Provo?
Cristina 56:40 I was doing research at the Church History Library.
GT 56:43 That’s in Salt Lake.
Cristina 56:44 Provo was cheaper.
GT 56:45 Oh, yeah, definitely, but that’s quite a drive.
Cristina 56:48 Yeah, I lived in a basement apartment. I took the train.
GT 56:51 Okay.
Cristina 56:52 But as I was doing that, two things kind of corresponded. The first was, as I was doing research, reading more, doing archival work, I realized that polygamy didn’t end in 1890. I was like, “Wait a minute. There’s more to this story.” So I just found out. I realized. I know this is not a revelation to most listeners. But I realized that polygamy doesn’t end in 1890. And that was fine, obviously.
{End of Part 2}
[2] I was wearing a dark blue dress shirt.
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