Joe Geisner gave a presentation at Sunstone in August about lost Mormon documents. Does he include the Lost Spalding Manuscript? We’ll focus on lost documents and consored General Conferences addresses. Check out our conversation…
Don’t miss our other conversations with Joe! https://gospeltangents.com/people/joe-geisner/
You can get a printed transcript or Kindle version too with more info that was published!
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Rick & Joe Fanboy
Interview
GT 00:56 Welcome to Gospel Tangents. You’ll notice a little bit of a different setup here. I’m here with an amazing author. Could you go ahead and tell us who you are and where you live?
Joe 01:06 I am Joe Geisner. I am from Santa Rosa, California. I actually was born and raised in Sonoma Valley, so I had a charmed life growing up.
GT 01:17 Oh, wow. So you’re a California surfer?
Joe 01:20 Well, we’re the wine country.
GT 01:21 You’re wine country.
Joe 01:22 Yeah, our water, scuba diving.
GT 01:24 Well, you’re a BYU guy, kind of. We’ll talk about that in a minute.
Joe 01:29 Yeah, that’s right.
GT 01:30 But at any rate, you’ll notice a little bit of a different setup here. Joe is in town for Sunstone. He gave a wonderful presentation. Plus, oh, by the way we have an assistant here today, don’t we? I should have something because I have something that will be a surprise to you.
Joe 01:46 Are we going to put her on camera too?
GT 01:48 She can just grab this bag and hand it to me. That would be great. But at any rate, I left my cameras home. I brought all my equipment except my cameras, so we’re recording on my cell phone, so this is the first.
Joe 02:04 We think it’ll be perfect.
GT 02:06 We hope it is a good recording. So anyway, I was talking to Joe today after his wonderful presentation, which is why we’re here. Plus, we’re going to get the additional content that Joe ran out of time for.
Joe 02:19 That’s right.
GT 02:21 Joe said, Hey, I’m available tonight. We’re here in Salt Lake City. As I was walking out of the center, I ran into Signature Books. Look at this. They’re still shrink wrapped.
Joe 02:36 Yes, they are.
GT 02:38 I said, is there any way that I could get two? Because I’m going to keep one. I guess I should show it this way. I’m going to keep one. We’re going to take the shrink wrap off after this episode. Joe’s going to sign them both. I’m going to keep one, but one of you is going to get one. Go to gospeltangents.com/contest[1] and you can get an autographed copy of Writing Mormon History.
Joe 02:57 This is a great idea.
GT 03:00 It was great that I ran into Signature Books, so that was awesome. We love Signature Books, by the way.
Joe 03:05 That’s about a pound less that Beth had to carry out.
GT 03:14 Exactly! Beth is the one who gave them to me. I couldn’t remember her name. We love you, Beth Reeve.
Joe 03:17 Beth is wonderful. She’s wonderful.
GT 03:19 We were complaining about another publisher, and I said they weren’t nearly as good as Signature. But they’re far away. It’s nobody local.
Joe 03:26 It’s nobody that anybody knows,
GT 03:29 Well, people would know, but I won’t trash them here. So anyway, Joe, you have been coming to Sunstone for how long?
Joe 03:39 My first year was 1988.
GT 03:43 That’s 12 and 24. That’s 36 years.
Joe 03:46 That’s that new math that we’re figuring out. But I’m old. People need to know Mike Marquardt was at the first Sunstone 1977, I think.
GT 04:01 Really? I didn’t know. He was joking, because he said somebody else asked him to be on the podcast. And he says, No, I was on Rick’s. I’m good. So anyway, thank you, Mike. I always like to get people’s academic history. You’re not a trained historian.
Joe 04:19 No. I do not call myself a historian. I make it very clear. I am a researcher.
GT 04:26 Okay, you’re a very well-trained researcher.
Joe 04:29 I mean, yeah. I respect historians. I do not want to diminish their [talent.] That is a craft. That is an art form. They are trained to do that.
GT 04:45 Well, you’re a very talented amateur.
Joe 04:47 Thank you. That’s kind of you.
GT 04:50 Not only that, but Joe is always great, because you always give great presentations.
Joe 04:53 Oh, well, thank you.
GT 04:55 I will tell you what. I don’t know if Lindsay is going to get mad at me about this. That Whova app that they use for Sunstone, they used to have the programs. I always like to see what’s the title and who’s the author. Because now I know who the good people are. If I don’t know who they are, I’m more scared to see them. Now they just hand out a piece of paper and it just has the titles.
Joe 05:18 Yes.
GT 05:19 It doesn’t have the authors on it. I was looking, not having any clue who was giving this, but I think the title was called Lost Manuscripts.
Joe 05:18 That’s correct.
GT 05:19 So I was like, Well, that sounds interesting. Then somebody told me, Oh, that’s Joe Geisner. I was like, oh, now I’m going for sure.
Joe 05:40 That is very kind.
Spalding Theory & View of the Hebrews
GT 05:42 Tell us about the lost manuscripts.
Joe 05:45 The one that everybody should know, that has an interest in Mormonism…
GT 05:42 Solomon Spalding
Joe 05:45 Yeah, that’s right, that’s right.
GT 05:55 You didn’t talk about that. I wanted you to.
Joe 05:57 Manuscript Lost. Yeah. Well, yeah. Because I don’t believe.
GT 06:00 Do we want to get into that?
Joe 06:02 Well, I just don’t believe in it. I don’t believe in it.
GT 06:04 Okay, so for those who don’t know, tell us about the Spaulding Theory, even though that wasn’t part of your presentation, just a quick thumbnail.
Joe 06:12 It actually started out with Eber D. Howe in Mormonism Unvailed. I can’t remember if Hurlbut, I think Hurlbut also…
GT 06:24 Hurlbut started it and then he got mad at Joseph Smith and said he was going to wash his hands in Joseph Smith’s blood. Then Joseph sued him. So, he sold his stuff to E.D. Howe.
Joe 06:33 Yeah, yeah, that’s right.
GT 06:35 I’ve actually done a presentation on this.
Joe 06:36 Okay, well, you probably know way more than I. Anyway, the idea was that Rigdon had received a manuscript. The only way you could do that[2] and was able to get people to say that Rigdon had gone to Palmyra. They had seen Rigdon in Palmyra.
GT 07:01 Which wasn’t true.
Joe 07:02 Right. That’s not [right.] It’s just too inconsistent.
GT 07:06 Right. Rigdon was from Pittsburgh.
Joe 07:09 Yeah.
GT 07:10 And Spalding was too, Solomon Spalding.
Joe 07:11 Right, right. This idea that Spalding had written the manuscript, and then it had gone to Rigdon. Spalding had written in manuscript, gone to Rigdon. Rigdon took it to New York, and that’s how the Book of Mormon came about. There are just too many issues, too many problems. But not only that, it takes away from Joseph Smith and his creativity. It’s like anybody who’s read the Happiness Letter. I remember, there’s a theory that Smith didn’t write the Happiness Letter.
GT 07:55 Oh I hadn’t heard of that one.
Joe 07:56 Yeah, [the claim is] that Bennett wrote it.
GT 07:57 Oh.
Joe 07:58 There was a schism.
GT 08:01 John C Bennett, by the way.
Joe 08:02 Yeah. I’m sorry, John C Bennett. There was a schism, actually, within a very academic group who will remain anonymous, but they go by the initials JSP. There was actually a schism that one group of them thought that Bennett wrote it, and one group thought that Smith wrote the Happiness Letter. What they pull up the schism, the group that says that Bennett wrote the Happiness Letter, Bennett wrote a forgery revelation that I think he gave to Strang, I think. But he claimed that Joseph Smith had written it.
GT 08:53 You’re not talking about the Letter of Appointment. Are you?
Joe 08:57 No. No, no. That’s Strang’s forgery. Except I just offended all my Strangite friends with that. But anyway, Bennett did. He wrote this. I’m pretty sure it’s a revelation. I don’t think it’s a letter. It is a forgery saying that Joseph Smith wrote this revelation. It doesn’t look anything like any of Joseph Smith scribes, for starters. It’s bland. It’s just nothing, no substance there. Well, anybody who reads, if you read the BCR, the Book of Commandments and Revelations. I’ve got to think what those initials stand for. Smith, you cannot take away his creativity in reading the revelations that are in the BCR.
The Happiness letter, I remember Dan Vogel and I were talking about it. Dan just laughed at this theory that Bennett wrote it. He said, “It’s Joseph Smith.” It’s got Joseph Smith written all over it. The creativity of it is amazing. How could anybody think that? And, so anyway, getting back to the Spalding [Conspiracy,] with Spalding, you take away his creativity. At least with what B. H. Roberts theorized, which was View of the Hebrews.
GT 10:36 Right. That is like reading or watching paint dry to read that book. I couldn’t get through it. It’s horrible.
Joe 10:39 Yeah, but there’s the an outline that Joseph Smith could have used. Now, again, that’s up for debate.
GT 10:48 I’d rather read a dictionary. {Joe chuckles}
Joe 10:49 You didn’t like that
GT 10:53 Oh my gosh, I couldn’t even get through it.
Joe 10:55 I did read it. Actually, yeah, because it made sense to me. I believe Roberts’ theory.
GT 11:05 Oh really?
Joe 11:06 Now, I’m not going to die on that mountain, but, yeah. I think that there’s legitimate [reasons.] But then I’m a Roberts fan. I don’t even know if you know that I gave a paper on Roberts. Mike Quinn tore me to shreds. He was the respondent, and he believed that Roberts remained a believer in the Book of Mormon. My idea, my thesis of my paper was that Roberts did stop believing. He actually did stop believing. But he could never walk away from Mormonism. He could never walk away from Joseph Smith. Just because he believed that it was a creation of Joseph Smith doesn’t mean he didn’t believe in Joseph Smith’s prophetic [gift.] That was my argument. But Mike said, No. You can’t do that, which is an interesting thing. Because Mike often threaded a needle with some of his [ideas.] But anyway, I did. I still do believe that Roberts stopped believing in the antiquity. I should clarify. [He stopped believing] in the ancient, or antiquity of the Book of Mormon, that there was a Nephite people and that there was a real Moroni who wrote the record. I don’t think Roberts believed that anymore. I think he saw too many inconsistencies.
GT 12:33 So you think Roberts believes that Joseph was the author.
Joe 12:37 Right. He believed that Smith was. He believed that Smith was the author.
Loose Translation
GT 12:41 I’ve heard, I think Quinn said this. I don’t remember. There are some people, we’ll just say it that way, who believe that it was in the air that the ancient Indians were descendants of Israelites. And so you look at View of the Hebrews, and you look at Solomon Spalding manuscripts, and you look at other manuscripts. Joseph, not necessarily that he read those, but he was familiar with the ideas. He synthesized those ideas into the Book of Mormon. Is that basically what you believe?
Joe 13:12 That’s the loose translation [model] and Roberts believed in the loose translation when he wrote New Witness for God, which is a three-volume work that he did. It’s a defense of the Book of Mormon. It’s probably the best defense ever written on the Book of Mormon. I argued in my paper at Sunstone that it’s still to this day the best defense of the Book of Mormon.
GT 13:51 Better than William Davis and his Visions of a Seer Stone. Have you had a chance to read them?
Joe 13:55 I don’t think Bill’s defending the Book of Mormon. I know that people interpret it that he’s defending, but I don’t think Bill is. I mean Bill said he’s neutral, but I don’t think it’s a defense. But Bill’s theory, which I think is a probably the very accurate theory, is that Smith had learned how to do that work. If you have just one or two notes, you can then speak for two hours. Right. Remember, Cowdery and Smith would go out for walks and do all kinds of things. He could formulate and do that.
Joe 14:40 Bill’s idea is revolutionary, I think. But Roberts was more the loose translation, which is that there wasn’t a manuscript. Remember what Whitmer said, David Whitmer. It was word-for-word, line-by-line. That is a strict translation. Royal Skousen, that’s his advocacy: every word came directly from God. A loose translation, which is what Roberts believed, was more along the line that Smith received inspiration in his mind. He formulated ideas. His environment helped him, and God’s inspiration helped him bring about the Book of Mormon. Though it was ancient, it did have Smith’s involvement, which is why there were anachronisms, why there were problems, why there was grammatical issues, why all those things. So, that’s what Roberts’ loose translation was. Unfortunately, Book of Mormon-believing scholars have moved to the Whitmer model of every word.
GT 16:02 You said, unfortunately?
Joe 16:03 I think so. I think it’s much easier to defend the loose translation.
GT 16:07 Oh.
Joe 16:08 I think Roberts.
GT 16:10 See, most everybody that I am familiar with is a loose translation guy.
Joe 16:16 Oh, really?
GT 16:17 I mean, Royal Scousen is the exception to that.
Joe 16:20 Definitely.
GT 16:21 I have some other people here and there, but I agree with you. I think loose translation [is easier to defend.] But my understanding with David Whitmer was, there’s the whole… I know we get off on tangents here, but that’s more of a seer stone versus your Urim and Thummim thing. I think most scholars, especially at BYU would go with loose, except for Royal Skousen. He is excluded there.
Joe 16:48 I think Brant Gardner. Right? He’s definitely probably, or definitely probably. Yeah, that’s good. Definitely probably, Joe. I’m going to stick with definitely, probably, because I’ve not read a lot of Brant’s material.
GT 17:02 Brant’s tight or loose?
Joe 17:03 I think he’s loose. I think he’s more along the line.
GT 17:05 Yes, yeah, he is.
Joe 17:06 He’s great, because he admits that the part of the Book of Mormon I’m talking about, an educated man not being able to read a [sealed] book, all of that whole part of the Book of Mormon, that all was written after Harris had gone and seen Anton. Brant says that.
GT 17:35 Well, it would have been because that’s part of the small plates, which would have replaced them.
Joe 17:42 Right, right. If you go with the priority of Mosiah, Brent Metcalfe, and now it seems like everybody’s realized that.
GT 17:54 Well, that’s interesting.
Joe 17:55 Yeah.
Lost Spalding Manuscript?
GT 17:55 Well, jumping back to Spalding, just because this is what I want to cover, because it’s related to your paper a little bit. The idea is E.D. Howe found the manuscript, what we now call Manuscript Found, because that ended up in Hawaii, which is a really weird story. But at any rate, it definitely was the story that E.D. Howe found. Maybe it was Hurlbut too. Clearly to me, have you read Manuscript Found?
Joe 18:26 Yes, yeah, I read that as well.
GT 18:27 It’s like a Gilligan’s Island version of the Book of Mormon. Right?
Joe 18:26 Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
GT 18:30 It really is. It is just goofy.
Joe 18:32 Yeah, Romans and all kinds of that.
GT 18:34 Yeah, they’re Roman. They’re off by 1000 years and whatever. Anyway. People who believe in the Spalding Manuscript Theory say, Well, yeah, we know that doesn’t really match the Book of Mormon.
Joe 18:48 Right.
GT 18:49 So there’s a there’s a second manuscript that Solomon Spalding wrote. And so, do you agree with that? What do you think? You’re the lost manuscript guy.
Joe 18:57 Absolutely not. Well, I’m not an expert on Spalding, but I don’t believe that at all. I don’t believe that at all. There’s just no evidence. Again, for my paper, I needed evidence.
Eldred Smith
Joe 19:15 Here’s a good example. Todd Compton and I were talking about my paper. Todd goes, well, here’s a story for you. I said, Okay.
Joe 19:27 He goes, maybe this will fit, which, by the way, it didn’t. I’m going to ruin the story because it didn’t fit. But it was a great story. Todd said, I heard this through another person that Eldred Smith claimed that he saw out his window, Joseph Fielding Smith.
Joe 19:52 When I was a boy, my grandpa had an ash can, we called it, where he would put the newspapers and any junk mail in this 55 gallon drum and burn the papers. So, Eldred said that he saw Joseph Fielding Smith out there burning Church documents. Well, I told Todd, I’m hesitant to believe your source’s information, just because Eldred and Joseph Fielding Smith actually were close. Joseph Fielding Smith & George A. Smith protected Eldred from the rest of the 15. Because the rest of the 15 did not like Eldred, and in his cousins, Joseph Fielding Smith and George Albert Smith protected him. So, I’m first of all hesitant to believe that Eldred would ever say something like that. But let’s say Eldred on a bad day, said that. Okay? I’m then going to say, well, Eldred was really good at telling stories. I got to meet Eldred, and I adored Eldred. He was so much fun. He was so kind to me.
GT 21:19 He just passed away not too long.
Joe 21:20 Yeah, 101 or 102 or whatever.
GT 21:25 [He was] the last [general] patriarch of the Church.
Joe 21:29 In my conversations with Eldred, he was a pretty funny guy. He had some whoppers that he could tell. I hear stuff like that, and that’s why I thought I’m digging into this. It’s just like when I did the censoring of General Conference addresses. Boyd K Packer had given his now infamous talk on God doesn’t make you that way, the queer talk and that whole thing. Then I was hearing people say, Oh, that happens all the time. They added the censoring and editing of that, of that. I kept hearing people say that.
GT 22:30 You’re talking about Boyd K. Packer’s talk was edited.
Joe 22:34 Yeah, right. From what he gave at conference to what was published in the Ensign.
Censoring Conference Addresses
GT 22:44 Well, the only other person that we’re aware of that that happened to was Poelman. Right?
Joe 22:49 That’s right. Everybody went to that was one.
GT 22:53 That is in 1984, if I remember right.
Joe 22:54 I think so. That sounds about right. It’s been years since I’ve just talked about this paper. But yeah, that’s what everybody [referred to.] Either they said that or [something else.] Lavina Fielding Anderson and I were talking about it. I asked Lavina, because she worked for the Ensign.
GT 23:18 Right.
Joe 23:19 She actually had connections with people that that did the Conference addresses, that looked at them and got them ready and prepared them and everything. Peggy Fletcher Stack, by the way, confirmed this. That was the other thing they said, was, “he went off script.”
GT 23:44 Boyd K. Packer went off script.
Joe 23:46 That was it. Packer went off. He went rogue. Remember that? There were people that were saying he went rogue. I was like, No. I did this investigation. Well, first of all, that’s nonsense. Packer did not go rogue. He read exactly what was written in his paper.
GT 24:05 Which he wrote.
Joe 24:06 Well, and his ghost writer; They all have ghost writers.
GT 24:10 Oh, really?
Joe 24:11 Yeah, so, yeah. They’re busy people. I mean, I have no problem with that. They said this never happened, all this stuff.
GT 24:26 You hear a lot of rumors I don’t hear. That’s interesting.
Joe 24:28 Yeah. So, okay, I’m going to go down this road, which is a funny story. Because when I was writing the paper and putting it together, I went into the Church History Library and I asked the person there at the desk. I’ve got to give them a lot of credit. They’re missionaries. They’re not historians. I said to the missionary, I’m looking to see if you’ve got any Conference addresses that have been censored, redacted or edited heavily. I qualified it with heavily. Because most conference addresses will have [editing.] If there’s an “it” or an “and” that got missed, they’ll fix that.
GT 25:16 Right. They’ll fix minor grammar errors.
Joe 25:17 But he goes, Yeah. They’re all over there in this on the shelf.
GT 25:25 What?
Joe 25:26 I said, No, okay. That’s the Conference reports that you’re pointing at. I said, I want the ones that are before they go into the Conference report that are completely different than what [is there.] He goes, there’s no Conference addresses like that.
Joe 25:44 I said, Yes, there are.
Joe 25:46 So, I educated this poor missionary. He’s like, 80 years old. Anyway, what I discovered was, I think, 18 Conference addresses that have been completely not allowed. Eldred’s, by the way, is one of them. His was heavily edited. Eldred, when he became Patriarch to the Church, he said, I have waited for this day for, I don’t know if he said, 10-15-20-something like that years. He said, I should have been standing here. I mean, he was mad. He was basically yelling at the other general authorities.
GT 26:27 What has taken you so long?
Joe 26:29 Actually, it was Irene Bates who first told me about that. Gary and Irene talked about that Conference address in their book.
GT 26:37 This is why we like talking to Joe.
Joe 26:40 It was heavily edited. Two J. Golden Kimball’s talks were never, ever put in the Conference report.
GT 27:52 Because there was so much swearing?
Joe 26:54 Actually, yeah, that was part of it. That was part of it. Heber J. Grant got really ticked off and actually yelled at J. Golden Kimball, both at Conference, when his remarks were also removed from what he told.
GT 27:15 The censoring people.
Joe 27:16 Yeah, yeah, which actually happened in a case with John W Taylor. John W Taylor and his address also the second year that the Conference were [printed.] Because that’s all I deal with. It would be impossible to deal with anything before the Conference Reports exist. Conference reports were 1889, 1888 something like that, when they started.
GT 27:48 We don’t have any of Brigham Young’s talks.
Joe 27:50 Every single one of those were [before 1888.][3] I mean Watt, we know. I wrote a review on that, that Watt actually, as he was writing down; this is LaJean Carruth’s big claim to fame. As Watt is writing down Brigham Young’s address, he’s actually editing it for grammar and censoring the swear words. Yeah.
GT 28:15 Oh really? Wow.
Joe 28:16 So anyway, John W Taylor says that the Tabernacle Choir’s is rampant in adultery, which is funny with John W Taylor being the one who’s claiming this. Because he’s the guy out there who’s marrying all kinds of women, and he’s not supposed to.[4] But anyway, that’s a whole ‘nother [story.]
GT 28:38 He’s doing it under the right rules.
Joe 28:40 Right. Then he says, and Lavina always corrected me on this. Kamas, right?
GT 28:50 Yeah.
Joe 28:51 Kamus, Utah. Okay. I usually pronounce it wrong. But he said that there’s a bunch of whoremongers and Kamas. They’re all having a big orgy up there, basically. That’s his Conference address. When they voted to sustain John W Taylor at that Conference,
GT 29:16 As apostle.
Joe 28:17 Yes apostle; Not one per not one member of the Tabernacle Choir would vote for him.
GT 29:22 Ohhh. {chuckles}
Joe 28:24 I guess a whole bunch of people in the audience probably all from Kamas. But anyway, George Q. Cannon, his uncle, gets up and yells at him. So, both of those are not in the Conference Reports too.
GT 29:41 Oh, wow.
Joe 29:42 Yeah. So I found a whole [bunch.]
GT 29:43 Wow. So, these are some of the laot manuscripts. I don’t remember any of this in your talk.
Joe 29:47 Well, no, because they’re not lost, because I found them. {Rick laughs.} So yeah, they’re there. Yeah, yeah, they aren’t over in the Conference Reports as that poor missionary thought.
GT 29:58 That does bring up another point, because I thought. Well, they were lost, but now they’re found. But you’re saying these are permanently lost, the documents that you talked about.
Joe 30:06 Yes, right, right. That is correct. Yeah, that is correct.
Is Church Hiding Through Redactions?
Joe 30:13 I have a theme. My next major project after I’d done some other things, but my next major project was the George Q. Cannon journals being redacted, censored and redacted.
GT 30:29 Those were just published recently.
Joe 30:31 Yeah, I don’t know, 10 years now when they first started, I think. I mean, when they first did, it was like 20 some years ago. When Michael Landon’s first volume came out, and then they were afraid to do anything after that for a while. It took a while. It was actually Steven Snow. People underestimate how great of a historian Steven Snow is.
GT 30:55 He’s a good guy. He came on my podcast.
Joe 30:58 Yes. That was great! Steven Snow is my hero.
GT 31:04 He’s awesome.
Joe 31:07 You don’t get better than him. But anyway, he was the one who made sure that the George Q Cannon journals [got published.] Now, I didn’t make life easy for them, because they accidentally uploaded a bunch of the journals by accident.
GT 31:29 Which journals?
Joe 31:30 George Q. Cannon journals on the Church historian website. Yeah. Church Historian Press website.
GT 31:38 Oh, okay.
Joe 31:39 They uploaded by accident.
GT 31:43 You took screenshots.
Joe 31:44 No, I downloaded.
GT 31:45 Oh, you downloaded. Oh, no!
Joe 31:48 I copied and pasted, copied, paste in Word, copy, paste in Word.
GT 31:53 Because you knew they weren’t going to last long.
Joe 31:54 No, no. There was no way of knowing. I always like to say that Moroni or Nephi. Who was it? Nephi or Moroni, one of them came and visited me {Rick chuckles} and said, you need to download these now. Because I was not going to. I was going to do it a day or two later.
GT 32:14 That would have been too late.
Joe 32:15 I downloaded all of them. Then, about half of them were unredacted, or maybe two-thirds were unredacted, and then a third wasn’t or something. I can’t remember now. But I then did a paper on those redactions.
GT 32:38 When they became Official.
Joe 32:39 When they became official; Now they only did one group.
GT 32:42 I was at that paper. I remember that.
Joe 32:43 Did you go? I like learning about the stuff we can’t get our hands on. That’s how this paper about.
GT 32:53 Oh, okay.
Joe 32:54 Because I kept hearing people say the Church is hiding this, or the Church is doing this, or it’s in the First Presidency vault. They’re a bunch of—you know. Well, the truth is, the First Presidency vault has been cleaned out. That actually happened under Stephen Snow as well. That’s how the seer stone [became public.]
GT 33:11 It’s all in Church Library now.
Joe 33:12 It’s all in the Church. It makes complete sense. They built this brand new, modern, beautiful, state-of-the-art.
GT 33:22 Temperature-controlled.
Joe 33:23 I mean everything, light controlled, temperature controlled, humidity controlled. I mean everything. It is the best in the world when it was built. I don’t know if anything surpassed it yet, but at that point when it was built, it was the best in the world. The Church spent mega amounts of money, spared no expense. I mean, they did everything perfect. The cameras of photographing those documents that they photographed, are the best ever done. I mean, what they did [is amazing.] So, why would they not move everything from a building that was built in 1910, or 20 or something like that has an old bank vault? I mean, why would you not take all that stuff out and put it in your best?
GT 34:16 We know what happened with the Printer’s Manuscript, because that was in the cornerstone [of the Nauvoo House.]
Joe 34:20 That was in the cornerstone, yeah.
GT 34:23 We only have a third left.
Joe 34:24 Yeah.
GT 34:25 Those are the sorts of things that happen when you don’t properly take care of documents.
Joe 34:29 That’s right, that’s right.
GT 34:31 So you’re arguing. This is an interesting thing, because there is a big debate on the internet, let’s say about the Church is hiding this. The Church is hiding that. So, you’re saying the Church isn’t hiding stuff or what are you saying?
Joe 34:44 No. I mean, even Church employees admit that. There’s stuff we don’t [release.] There’s a lot less of that happening. Matthias Cowley’s diaries, which Leonard Arrington constantly requested to see, never had access to. They have now been described, and in the last volume three of Saints. That’s been the last. Right? They actually quote from the journal.
GT 35:20 Really?
Joe 35:21 The plan is that at some point they will make those available. Now again, I’m sure there’s going to be some redactions. But it’ll be interesting to see what kind of redactions they do. Are they going to take out new plural marriage stuff? I don’t think so. The Church has already made available Matthias Cowley’s marriage record book.
GT 35:48 For those who don’t know, Matthias Cowley was one of the apostles who got…
Joe 35:51 Disfellowshipped; He got to fellowshipped. John W Taylor got excommunicated.
GT 35:55 Okay, in 1906. David O McKay and I don’t remember who the other one who replaced them.
Joe 35:59 Orson F. Whitney and who was [the other one?] I always forget the third guy.
GT 36:06 Was there a death? There were three called in 1906?
Joe 36:10 Teasdale died. Cowley and John W. Taylor were removed from the 12.
GT 36:17 Then that brought in McKay…
Joe 36:21 Whitney, and a guy who I can’t remember. What was it? It wasn’t Ballard. Ballard was supposed to be, I think.
GT 36:32 Melvin Ballard?
Joe 36:33 Ballard fits into my story of documents.
Lost 116 Pages
GT 36:38 Let’s go there. Because, yeah, we’ve definitely been meandering here. But yeah, let’s dive in. You have evidence that certain documents existed and no longer exist.
Joe 36:49 That is correct.
GT 36:50 Where do you want to start?
Joe 36:53 Well, we can start it maybe the most well-known, which is 116-page manuscript.
GT 37:02 All right. Martin Harris. Did you consult Don Bradley at all?
Joe 37:09 No, no. It’s not anything to do with Don. Don was looking at it from a completely different perspective than I was looking at it.
GT 37:19 That’s the first documented case of here’s a document. We know it existed. We know it got lost, and it’s never been recovered.
Joe 37:28 Right. Well, yeah.
GT 37:30 Except Mark Hofmann was going to make it. Right?
Joe 37:34 I’m actually thinking that, yeah, you’re making actually a [good point,] I didn’t go that far in my paper, but I do think that you’re right that the 116-page manuscript would be the first known Mormon document that we know of, we have evidence of in the historical record. Again, that’s my qualification. We’ve got to know that it existed from the historical record. Again, rumor of Eldred saying that he saw Joseph Fielding Smith burning in the ash can doesn’t work for me. But yeah, if we have it in the historical record, and 116-page would be. Now, I had a man come up today after the session, and he asked me. He said, do you have any speculation or idea who burnt it? I said, I have speculation, but it’s worth, what? 25 cents and we’ll buy you a really bad cup of coffee. I mean, I do not think Lucy Harris had anything to do with its destruction. I don’t believe that.
GT 38:43 She’s the main culprit
Joe 38:44 She’s scapegoat.
GT 38:45 I’m trying to remember who Don said he thought stole it.
Joe 38:48 It was her nephew.
GT 38:49 Okay.
Joe 38:50 I’m willing to go with that. I’m willing to go with that.
GT 38:55 He stole it, but we don’t know what happened to it.
Joe 38:58 Right, right. I threw out to this man, as Brent Metcalfe said, the best thing that ever happened, and I think Dan Vogel has said this as well. The best thing that ever happened to Joseph Smith’s translation, and I use that term very loosely, of the Book of Mormon, was the Lost 116 pages.
GT 39:22 That was his rough draft.
Joe 39:23 Now there were, actually, more pages than that but the 116 is what was lost. But there were [more pages.] So, yeah, it was a gift from God that those went by [the wayside.]
GT 39:35 Why? You think it was this terrible, or what?
Joe 39:39 Yeah, they, just probably were very rough, let’s say. Let’s be kind and say they were rough. It really helped him develop. Then when he started with Mosiah…
GT 39:54 They was practice pages.
Joe 39:55 Yeah, yeah. Then he could start in with Mosiah.
GT 40:01 Who was I talking to? Oh, it was Joe Spencer. Because a lot of people say our Mosiah Chapter 1 was really chapter three of Mosiah, because he had started into Mosiah. But Joe Spencer thinks that our Mosiah 1 is Mosiah 1.
Joe 40:25 Hmmm. They’re all way smarter than I am when it comes to that. I just depend on Dan Vogel and Brent Metcalfe. Joe Spencer is a very, very bright young man. He’s got a really good first name {Rick chuckles.} So, yeah, the first would be 116 pages.
Anthon Manuscript
Joe 40:40 Then my next one is the Anthon manuscript.
GT 41:00 Oh, yes.
Joe 41:01 That’s a fun one. I was one of those people that I kept hoping that the Anthon manuscript was the Caracters manuscript that the Community of Christ owned. I mean, I even got to hold that one site.
GT 41:19 Oh, you did?
Joe 41:20 Yeah, because I got to go in a very special thing. Ron Romig took us in. We got to see the seer stones. I love sacred artifacts. I am fascinated. Sacred space and sacred artifacts, to me, they’re precious. Robin Jensen has been so good. He’s taken me and a few other people into the Church Archives. We got to look. We didn’t get to hold, but we got to have our heads right there looking at the 1832 account of the First Vision, the History of Joseph Smith. I’ve lived a charmed life.
Joe 42:12 About the Anthon manuscript, Charles Anthon did a really good job of describing the [document. As a] matter of fact he did such a good job that Mark Hofmann then, basically that’s how he created his Anthon forgery.
GT 42:30 Which people believed was authentic for a time.
Joe 42:31 Yeah. So, when you look at Mark Hofmann’s forgery, it’s completely different than the Caracter. As Ed Ashman pointed out again to show you how…
GT 42:48 Because people thought the Caracters document was the Anthon document.
Joe 42:49 Right, right. For a long time.
GT 42:52 We don’t believe that anymore.
Joe 42:54 No, no, there’s no way of it was. But what Mark Hofmann did—now, Mark Hofmann was a murderer. He was a horrible person. I never want to give him credit for anything. But one thing he did do with the Anthon manuscript was he took the Caracter manuscript and he used those symbols. By the way, there’s two others: the Frederick G. Williams, and then there’s another. So there’s actually more than just…
GT 43:27 The Caracters document.
Joe 43:28 But the Utah church owns the other two.
GT 43:33 We own the Caracters document now. That was part of the Kirtland Temple sale.
Joe 43:35 Right. The Utah church now owns all those that have the Book of Mormon characters. What Hofmann did was he combined the Caracters document characters. He combined them, as he did the forgery. So, when people were looking at Mark Hofmann’s forgery, that was one of the things that led them to believe it was real. It was not only because Anthon had given this description, but then Hofmann had taken those symbols that were on the Caracters and made different [placement.] But he used them so you could tell they were from the Caracters document, but they were more complicated.
GT 44:39 So he was using the Caracters document to authenticate the Anthon document.
Joe 44:44 Yes, exactly
GT 44:45 He did quite a bit.
Joe 44:46 Yes. It was Ed Ashment who figured that out. He was a Church employee at the time. Ed’s brilliant and an Egyptologist. So, yeah. He figured that out. So anyway, so that’s, that’s the Anthon transcript. We don’t have the one. We got Mark Hofmann’s forgeries. We got the Caracters. We got the Frederick G Williams. And then there’s that third one that I can’t think of, off on my head. But there’s those.
{End of Part 1}
[1] Contest ended in 2024.
[2] The theory states that Rigdon somehow obtained Solomon Spalding’s manuscript and surreptitiously gave it to Joseph Smith. This manuscript was the basis for the Book of Mormon.
[3] Young died in 1877.
[4] Taylor was excommunicated for unauthorized polygamy in 1906.
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