Mauli Bonner discusses his award-winning film, “Green Flake is His Name” at various international film festivals. The film was so successful, he was able to help erect a monument to black Mormon pioneers at “This is the Place” Park. We’ll discuss his future plans for both movies & monuments. Check out our conversation by signing up to our free newsletter at https://gospeltangents.com
Don’t miss our other conversations with Mauli: https://gospeltangents.com/people/mauli-bonner
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Award Winning Movie
GT 00:48 Now, I know the movie won several film festival awards. Can you talk a little bit about that?
Mauli 00:53 It did. I finished making the film. granted, I had never made a film before. I never wanted to be a filmmaker. I just knew that the story needed to be told, because I worried that other people in our church, no matter what color you are, would learn about this history. And they will learn it in the wrong way: on Google, in an argument at school or at work. And what is that going to do to their faith? What is that going to do to them? And so, I wanted to make this film so that people could learn the stories of this history while connecting to the people. So, it didn’t feel like we’re just talking about them like they weren’t actual human beings. So, I wanted to tell that story. I made the film, I put everything together: location, and getting the actors and the contracts and all that. Then the day before we’re about to film, I go to lay my head down, And I was like, who’s the director? I didn’t book a director. So, I did everything except for book the director for the film. And so, I was like, “Okay, I’ve got to direct this thing.” And so, this is the night before I made the film. So, I went on YouTube, then it was like, when to say action, when to say cut. I watched this little 30-minute video. That was my little master class. I got on set. And it was awesome. Because I heard, “rolling.” I’m like, Yeah, I remember that. “Sound.” Yes, yes. “Speed.” Okay. “And,” it was just silent. And I was like, “I don’t remember the silence.” Then my first AD, he tapped me on the shoulder, “Sir, it’s on you, sir, action.” I’m like, oh, gosh. So, that’s how it started. But I will tell you, I had dreamed the scenes up every night, like it was… My wife would wake me up sometimes at night saying, “You’re not in a movie. You’re not there.” Because it was just playing in my mind. So, when I was on set, I knew every scene how it should be, how it should go. So, I directed it, threw it into film festivals. And it came back winning Best Film in every film festival that we were that we got in.
GT 03:01 LA, London.
Mauli 03:03 Yes, LA, London, Rome, Istanbul, Tampa, there were over 10. And then I turned my email notifications off, because it was just a lot of stuff happening. And so, it was winning Best Film, across the board. And this is people that weren’t members of the Church.
GT 03:22 Right.
Mauli 03:22 These are people who are just hearing this history. And that told me that our history is not just black history. It’s not just Church history. But this is history that connects to anyone, because stories of faith and love and overcoming the most impossible things are something that, on a human level, we can all connect with. So, yeah, it was great.
GT 03:44 So, you don’t have to be LDS to like this movie.
Mauli 03:46 No, not at all. I didn’t even put it into LDS films, because I wasn’t sure how the Church folk were going to like it. I’m like, I don’t know. I’ll go out here first. But I did end up doing a screening in Utah. I just rented a big theater and just brought a bunch of people there. And after the film, everybody’s in tears, and then hands are up in questions. And I was like, oh, okay. I can’t just put this out, and people are left with, “What just happened?” Because it was, for a lot of people, shaking what they thought was. Like, wait, one: black pioneers, two: slavery, and members enslaving other members? It was just a lot.
GT 04:29 Yeah.
Mauli 04:30 And what I didn’t want to do is just traumatize people for the sake of traumatizing them, then that’s too heavy. Because I did realize, am I talking too much? I guess this is a podcast, right?
GT 04:40 No, this is why we’re here. You’re supposed to talk.
Black Pioneer Monument in Utah
Mauli 04:43 I realized that my white brothers and sisters care so much about this sensitive history. I didn’t know that they cared until the film. Then seeing me having to console them, they were just broken over it. And I was just like, wow, they want these truths, but it’s a lot to take in. And so, we did a lot of private screenings where we do Q&As afterwards and did it that way. That was when I realized, I’m going to be rich, this movie is going to be so good, everybody loves it. I was going to be rich. I thought that was going to be it for me. I was like, Lord, you haven’t forgotten me. That’s what this is all about. And I actually looked up, online, monuments in Utah, because I wanted to take a picture with the cast and the crew with the film, because, you know, this is it, with the film! And I was like, [internet searching] black pioneer monument, like nothing came up. And I’m like, that’s weird. [I looked up] enslaved monument. I just assumed that there’s multiple, because this is Green Flake! He drove the first wagon. And to learn that I couldn’t find any. And I was like, “Oh, that’s what this is about: representation.” Because if we don’t see it, how do we know it to be true? If we don’t see it, how do we know that we were here as black people? So, I changed it to my nonprofit and made sure everything went towards building a monument to recognize black pioneers.
GT 06:28 So how’s that monument come along?
Mauli 06:30 It’s come along to the end. It’s done. It’s done. But here’s the process. Gosh, how much time–long story or short, medium?
GT 06:42 We’ve got to time.
Mauli 06:42 Okay, I’ll give you medium. So, I found out there’s no monument and I was like, okay. I don’t know how we’re going to do this. But I went and did screenings for Church departments, because this is Church history, black history, but also Church history, and getting their feedback from the History Department, communication, stuff like that. And on the way back of one of my screenings, I was able to run into an apostle, and I talked to him about the film and said, “Hey, I made this film and it’s about Green Flake and enslaved and free black pioneers, but there needs to be a monument at our places. This Is the Place, Heritage Park and Temple Square, but that can’t happen without you. Then he says, “Okay, well write me a letter.” And I was like, no, no, no, no. We’re here right now. Let’s, let’s seal the deal, right now.
GT 07:35 If I write you a letter, it’s going to go to my stake president.
Mauli 07:39 Yeah, exactly! I’ll be excommunicated before it gets [there.] Yeah. So, no. So he said, let’s take a picture.” Let’s take a selfie. We took a selfie, and it was Elder Rasband. And so, I ended up writing a letter to his wife, actually, because it was his wife who I talked to, at first, because he had walked away. He was walking on somewhere, and I talked to Sister Rasband. And I told her about it. And she called him over. And that was just so sweet of her. She didn’t have to do that. And I’m sure he’s like, “We didn’t we talk about this.” I mean, I imagine. But for her to do that, that was the catapult for all of this. Because a week later, seven days later, I ran into Elder Gong. Then Elder Gong, I told him on the street, randomly. I told Elder Gong, “Hey, I made this film.”
GT 08:31 You ran into Elder Gong on the street?
Mauli 08:33 On the street. I mean, listen, if I’m being more specific, when we took that selfie, me and Elder Rasband, I looked at the time and it was 5:32. And I was like, that’s my lucky number. I was like, 5:32. And then so the next week, seven days later, I’m in Salt Lake because I’m about to do a benefit concert to promote the release of a film. The film wasn’t even out yet. Or to the public, it wasn’t out. It did the circuit of festivals. I saw a man walking. I was like gosh, that looks like Elder Gong. I pull over. And I’m like “Elder Gong?”
He’s, like, yes.
I was like, “Oh my gosh! Can I walk and talk with you?”
And he’s like, “Sure.”
So we walk and talk. And I tell him, I made this film: His Name is Green Flake, but there’s no monuments. People need to know who they are. [We need monuments at] This is the Place, Heritage Park, Temple Square. And he’s like, “I love what you’re doing. It’s great, great.”
I’m like, “Oh, you know about it?”
He’s like, Yeah, I know all about it. It’s wonderful. You have a concert coming up tomorrow, but the film’s not out yet.”
I’m like, you blew up my elevator pitch. I don’t know what to say. And then he’s like, “Well, keep up the good work. These things take time, but we love what you’re doing.”
I’m like, okay. Then I said, “Can we take a selfie?” We took a selfie. And it was 5:32 again. I was like, Oh my gosh, 5:32. Then six days later, I’m home. Granted, I live in LA. I’ve been flying back and forth, back and forth. I told my wife, I’m not flying this time. This time I’m [going to] be in town and I shouldn’t have said that. Because six days later, as I’m at home, I had this prompting, this feeling, this urge that I needed to go back to Salt Lake. And so I got on my knees and I prayed. I was like, Lord, “Am I supposed to go back?”
Mauli 10:30 The Spirit, the Lord spoke to me and said, “I’m sending you someone at 5:32.” It was just so clear. But I was like, but I just told my wife, I’d be in town. I’m already in the doghouse, because I’ve been traveling so much. I’m like, “Lord, I’ll go, but just Saturday, not Friday, if I can go, but just a day later.” And so, I negotiated with the Lord, which I had never done in the whole process of making the film.
GT 11:02 You and Abraham.
Mauli 11:03 I was like, oh, no. But I realized that the next day. So, Friday came, this is, like, the seventh day later. And it’s the morning and, I had this terrible, uncomfortable feeling because I felt like I needed to be somewhere the Lord asked me to be, and I had talked my way out of it. So, I called my wife, and I told her, “I have to go. I have a meeting.” Then of course, she’s like, “What? With who?”
Mauli 11:03 I’m like, “I don’t know.” I’m just like, okay. But she comes home. I book a flight. I get to Salt Lake. I’m now walking around Salt Lake. It’s just a few minutes before 5:32. It’s pouring rain, and nobody’s outside. And it’s 5:31, and still nobody. I have my briefcase with all my materials and my pitch deck and I have everything. I’m wearing my good suit. It turns 5:32. And I go, and I stand under this big shade tree and I pull out my phone and I give myself a motivational speech: “You did it. You did what the Lord wanted you to do. Even though nothing happened, I just needed a pick me up.” And then a car pulls up 30 yards from me and a man gets out in a suit. And he stands under a big tree, like another shade tree while it’s pouring rain. He just stands there in his suit. I look at my phone, it’s still 5:32. I’m like, I’m going to be late for my meeting. So, I run over to him. And I was like, “I’m here for you. I have a meeting with you.”
And then he was like, “Okay.”
I said, “I’m sorry. I didn’t think this far ahead. I don’t know what to say. I just flew in.”
He’s says, “I don’t know what to say either.”
I was like, “Okay, what’s your name?” Because I couldn’t make a match. I was like, is that one of the apostles? I couldn’t figure it out.
Mauli 12:53 And he said, “I’m a bishop.”
I was like, “Oh, you’re a bishop.” And I thought, well, a bishop, what’s that 300-400 people in the ward, maybe. He can let them know and spread the word. So, I gave him my pitch. This is Green Flake and a movie and black pioneers.”
And he cuts me off and says, “Yes, wonderful. I love what you’re doing. There was a great pitch this week. I loved it. We never go over [time,] but we went over for this one.”
I was like, “I’m sorry. Who are you?”
He said, “Bishop Causse.”
GT 13:22 Presiding Bishop.
Mauli 13:26 Yeah, so, I was like, “Bishop Causse, Causse. Wait, presiding.”
He’s like, “Yes.”
“Over the whole…
“Yes.”
I was like, “Oh, my gosh, my meeting is with you.”
Mauli 13:39 And he says, “I don’t know.” But he said, “I want to tell you that what you’re doing, it feels like love. It feels like love.” And that meant so much to me. Because when you’re talking about history of enslavement, and its controversial history. It’s painful history. And for him to say [that] it feels like love, that meant a lot to me. And so I told him, “Thank you for this meeting. I think we should end it before I mess it up.”
And he’s like, “No, no, no. I’m going to see President Nelson next week. He’ll be happy to know we met.”
I was like, wow, actually I was thinking like, can I go? Please take me with you, that’s what I was thinking. I was like, “Okay, great. Well, can we take a selfie?” And so we took a selfie. And I was like, “What were you doing standing here?”
And he was like, “Well, it was raining. I just got my hair cut. I didn’t want to mess it up.”
And I was like, “Oh, wow.” And that was that.
Mauli 14:45 And so shortly after that, I met with This is the Place Heritage Park. Ellis Ivory was incredible. Ellis Ivory, his [ancestor] was with Green Flake on the Pioneer trek as we were talking. He was like, “Well, my great-grandfather, Matthew, met up with John Brown. John Brown was the overseer, the one looking after Hark and Oscar, who were enslaved people.
GT 15:05 Not the John Brown’s rebellion guy.
Mauli 15:07 Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So you have now, Ellis’ [ancestor] who was with Green Flake when they came into the valley two days ahead of Brigham Young. They laid under the stars together. And so I think I think Ellis was really touched by that. And he started running full speed ahead to make this monument happen in less than a year. He calls Kem Gardner. He didn’t even ask anything of Kem. He just told him and Kem’s like, “Let’s make it happen. What do we got to do? How much is it?” Then we had to pump the brakes like, hold on, Kem. We’ve get to get people involved here. So Kem was incredible. And a bunch of people donated and pitched towards it, and everything from the film went towards the monument, and the Church put in on it. And now there’s this beautiful, beautiful monument at This is the Place Heritage Park. It’s got Jane Manning James there. She was not enslaved, but to not have her there, just didn’t make sense. So Jane, her two children, Sylvester and Silas. Then you have Oscar and his brother Hark, because they were two brothers there next to each other. And then you have Green Flake in the middle of the all, all that monument.
Elijah Abel
GT 16:23 And no Elijah Abel.
Mauli 16:24 No, Elijah Abel, not yet.
GT 16:26 Maybe your next movie.
Mauli 16:27 Not yet, maybe Temple Square. (Both chuckling) Not yet. That is, honestly, that’s my next project, that’s it. Yeah.
GT 16:34 Because the Green Flake project was supposed to be the Elijah Abel project, right?
Mauli 16:39 So when I when I started, it was Elijah Abel. There’s so much more on Elijah Abel. So, I was just doing everything I could to learn and write about Elijah Abel. And then I just felt drawn to Green Flake, even though there was nothing on him. And so now I’m getting back to where I started to dig into Elijah Abel.
GT 16:58 So I’m sure you’ll be talking to Russell Stevenson, because he wrote the biography.
Mauli 17:01 Yeah. I’ve talked with Russell briefly. But, I had these roundtable discussions, and I wanted him to be a part of them. So he’ll probably be a part of them later. But he was going to be in Ghana at the same time I was filming. But yeah, I’m involving a number of historians, professors, authors, to be a part of this. It’s a docuseries. So, there will be some dramatized episodes, but also, us following the history in minutes and what happened when.
GT 17:37 I remember when I met you, and then you said, “Oh, I know who you are.” And I was like, what?
Mauli 17:42 Yeah, yeah. I feel like I’m sitting here. I mean, yeah, I work with celebrities. But I’m like, this is a celebrity right here. I watch you. I watch you, because you have all of the folks that people need to listen to. Honestly…
GT 17:57 Have you seen my Russell Stevenson interview?
Mauli 17:58 Yes. Of course. You gave me so much information, just from watching you. You were a big part of my education and my journey. So, I’m so grateful for it.
GT 18:13 How do I feel? I’m embarrassed.
Mauli 18:16 I mean, honestly, I just hope that everybody doesn’t just watch this one episode, they have to watch it all. Because you have all the pieces of the puzzle, and you keep adding to it.
GT 18:25 Right. Well, I didn’t have all the pieces. I didn’t have Green Flake until today. And Elijah Able, can you tell us a little bit more about that project?
Mauli 18:37 Yeah, so if I’m being transparent, from the beginning, I have felt this push in my back, prompting of the spirit, Temple Square and This is the Place Heritage Park. There has to be representation. There has to be somewhere where people can go and say, “Here’s our history. Here’s the stories.” People shouldn’t have to learn about our history from Google and other places.
GT 19:04 They can learn it from Gospel Tangents, though.
Mauli 19:06 Yeah, yeah, exactly. (Both chuckling) So, I want there to be the history, or some type of history of the priesthood as it pertains to black people, on Temple Square, in some art form. Just because the sister missionaries, when they walk around and every time I come into town, I always walk around a little bit and just wait for the missionaries to snag me, because they always do. And then I’ll ask them a few tough questions, like so what happened? They feel tough, but they’re normal. What happened? Is this like a racist thing going on here? What’s the deal with the priesthood?
GT 19:46 Oh boy, I would have hated that question is a 19-year-old missionary.
Mauli 19:49 Right, and they still do. They shouldn’t have to hate it, because we now are getting so much of information. And I want those sister missionaries to be able to say, “Let me take you somewhere.” And we’ll walk over to the art. And they can say, so this is Elijah Abel. In 1836, he had the priesthood. This is Q. Walker Lewis and this is what happened at this time. And then it was gone. Thankfully, it came back in 1978. Just tell the history. That would feel so good to me instead of trying to figure out how to handle this.
GT 20:23 Well, God is a racist, right?
Mauli 20:24 Right. It’s like each missionary couple has a different answer, because they’re figuring it out themselves. Anyway, this Elijah Abel project, is going to follow the lives of black people, especially Elijah Abel, as it pertains to the priesthood to find out what happened? Who had it? When was it taken away? What was said, and when? And so that’s what this documentary is going to do.
GT 20:48 Cool. When can we expect it out?
Mauli 20:50 [It will be out in ] 2025, so this year…
GT 20:52 Really? I didn’t know it was that close.
Mauli 20:53 Yeah. So this year, I’m filming. So, I’m filming all this year, and raising money.
GT 20:58 So, you’re a songwriter and filmmaker. We’re going to have to put those together.
Mauli 21:01 I’m not a filmmaker. I just made a film. And now I’m making this documentary. And then I’m riding off into the sunset.
GT 21:07 Oh, wait, a minute. I’ve got another project for you.
Mauli 21:10 Oh no!
GT 21:11 Q Walker Lewis.
Mauli 21:12 I know.
GT 21:13 He’s got some great stories. I haven’t done a big deep dive on him, yet.
Mauli 21:19 I need to do a deep dive on him. I’ve spent more time on Elijah and Biddy [Smith Mason.]. But, Q. Walker Lewis, he has a story of his own. I have to tell you…
GT 21:28 You’ve got to get a trilogy. Right?
Mauli 21:30 I know. I know. But, but I’m not a filmmaker. I’m just making films and then I’m going to go back to my normal life and making music. You grilled me today.
GT 21:41 Your normal live hanging out with Katy Perry.
Mauli 21:43 Yes, exactly. It’s very normal. It’s normal.
Mauli 21:45 I feel like you grilled me. Those BYU questions were hard. It wasn’t a grill. That’s not fair. But those are hard questions to answer. As I was answering them, I’m like, I don’t know that. I’ve heard people say these things out loud. But I think we have to. I appreciate you asking me hard questions, and I hope…
GT 22:06 We’ll we’re trying not to sugarcoat anything.
Mauli 22:08 Yeah, and I don’t have the answers, but I hope there’s more conversations to help me find them, more conversations like these.
GT 22:18 Well, cool. So I think [I’m out of questions.] I’m trying to [remember.] I usually go about two hours, but I think I’m running out of questions.
Mauli 22:25 Do you really?
GT 22:26 Yeah.
Mauli 22:27 Oh, wow. I will tell you that the descendants of Green Flake, that was something I messed up on. So, here’s my confession. I just started running so fast. I learned about the history, and I just wrote it, 200 pages. Okay. Film it three months later. Then the descendants reached out to me. “What are you doing with our family?” I didn’t even think about that, which is not the way it should be. And so, I love that we have an opportunity to acknowledge people who are descended from enslaved ancestry. These are their families. These are their stories. I’m hoping that more descendants will start to come to the surface, because we just don’t hear about a lot of them. Most of them aren’t with the Church anymore. And so, yeah.
GT 23:28 Because of the enslaved ancestry, and the bad treatment by Church members? Is that why?
Mauli 23:34 I mean, I’m sure that contributes to it. But then again, you can look at any family of any race in here, and people are leaving the Church for different reasons. A lot of them are the same reasons, when it comes to the history of race, or polygamy or whatever else. And so, I know that they’ve had their trials, as well. But, talking about this with transparency, and bringing these stories to the surface, I think that’s what’s going to heal us, even though it’s going to be painful along the way, I think.
GT 24:10 Well, cool. Well, Mauli, I want to invite you back when you do your next documentary on Elijah Abel.
Mauli 24:17 Yeah.
GT 24:18 Because he’s another, can I say, hero of mine?
Mauli 24:21 Yeah.
GT 24:22 I can’t believe the testimony that he has. It’s so inspiring to me, despite the mistreatment that he suffered several times. I mean, the Russell Stephenson book,[1] you guys, you’ve got to read that because the whole–I won’t give it away. But the whole Canada thing is crazy to me. And to see the way he was mistreated, and he was so firm in the faith is just inspiring to me.
Mauli 24:53 It is. It’s inspiring to me, as well. I think if people knew, if people knew the stories of these black pioneers that endured things. We just hear about them, and it shakes our testimony. But they lived it. Elijah Abel was sitting there with the leaders of the Church, petitioning to get into the temple. I would imagine it would feel like, I’ve tithed. I’ve labored on it. Can I not seal my family? And for that to not happen, and him still hold his faith?
GT 25:28 I know. It’s crazy to me.
Mauli 25:29 Yeah. So, for me, that’s the example of okay, his testimony is rooted in something way deeper than the people, the buildings, the policies. Not that all those things don’t matter, but it’s got to be deeper than that.
GT 25:44 Right.
Mauli 25:44 It has to be, if we’re going to survive with the faith intact.
GT 25:51 Very good. All right. Well, we’d love to have you back.
Mauli 25:53 I’ll be back.
GT 25:54 Next year, I guess. But thank you, Mauli Bonner. Are there any concerts or anything coming up with your Bonner Unity Choir?
Mauli 26:04 Son let me clarify that. Okay, so my family is the singing group. So the Bonner family, and then my mom…
GT 26:10 Which are amazing.
Mauli 26:11 Thank you. And then my mom has a choir, the Unity Gospel Choir.
GT 26:16 Oh, those are two different things?
Mauli 26:18 Two different things.
GT 26:19 Oh, okay.
Mauli 26:19 Yeah. But sometimes with her kids, she’s like, come on, I need a soloist. We’re like, all right, mom, and then everybody is singing the self-same thing. But I will say, just keep your ears on high alert for when you do hear about this Elijah Able project, because there will come a time where I’m going to be fundraising to the public.
GT 26:38 Okay.
Mauli 26:39 Because I want the people to be a part of the project and not for it just to happen, but for people to have a stake in it. And when they go see the art, they can be, like, I was a part of that.
GT 26:48 And so can we go to the This is the Place Monument and see Green Flake now?
Mauli 26:53 Yes.
GT 26:53 It’s already there.
Mauli 26:54 Yeah, it’s already there.
GT 26:55 And you’re going to put a statue at Temple Square of Elijah Abel?
Mauli 26:57 That’s what we’re working on right now is what is that art going to look like, whether it’s stained glass or a painting or a statue or a monument? Like, what and where and how? All that is in discussions now. But I will say this, I think I should say this. I know we keep ending and have a little more. But I’ll just say this, that as much as we’re learning some of this difficult history, and some of it is new for a lot of folks, you have to know that I have not faced any pushback on the things that I’m doing. I’m not getting people saying, “Oh, why are you doing that? You can’t do that. You shouldn’t do that.” I believe that our Church leadership is wanting us to continue to tell these stories. Just because it’s not coming from their lips, doesn’t mean that we don’t tell it, that we don’t share it in our classes, that we don’t implement it in our testimonies. These are stories that should be shared. And I appreciate the support of the Church through it. Because I know this is uncharted territory that we’re all engaging in, as we’re uncovering this history.
Rick’s Penance for Racism
Mauli 28:12 You’ve been doing it longer than I have. So, I’m sure there must be [a reason.] I have a question for you. How has that been?
GT 28:19 I’m not supposed to answer questions.
Mauli 28:21 But, if I asked you one question, my one question would be….
GT 28:23 You can. I’m just teasing.
Mauli 28:24 Ok. I would say, did you feel like you were doing something wrong? Because you were doing this when people weren’t really doing this?
GT 28:33 Talking about race, you mean?
Mauli 28:34 Yeah. I have found that you have always been a step ahead.
GT 28:40 Well, thank you.
Mauli 28:41 And how does that feel? Was it scary? Do you think you did something wrong or you feel right?
GT 28:46 I think I’ve said this before, but I remember 1978. I was a young boy. I had grown up in Utah. In 1978, I was living in New Hampshire, I believe. There was this announcement that blacks could get the priesthood. And I was like, blacks couldn’t hold the priesthood till now? Really?
Mauli 29:08 Oh my gosh.
GT 29:09 I don’t really know any black people. So, it wasn’t an issue to me. I was like, I didn’t know that.
Mauli 29:15 Wow.
GT 29:16 And it has always, always bothered me. I still remember on my mission, teaching black people. I mean, this is probably 10 years after [then 1978 revelation], and I was just hoping that they would never ask me and nobody ever did. But I’ve always felt like–and I don’t know why. But I’ve actually written a 100-page paper on the history of the priesthood ban. I’ve tried to get it published twice. I haven’t gotten it published. It’s 10 years old, but I would still have to publish it sometime. But it almost feels like, even though I didn’t even know. I just feel like this penance like, guilty. And so, for whatever reason, it’s always really interested me. I just love learning about it. And, Paul Reeve and Matt Harris have a couple of books coming out, they said this year. I hope I’m the first one. Because, I love both of them. They’re both amazing scholars, and I’ve learned so much from them. So, even though I had nothing to do with it, it just feels like penance to me to learn more, and the feature people like you that do amazing things.
Mauli 30:48 I love that. I love that you found a way to do something with the shame and guilt that comes with the history, because I just think that paralyzes people.
GT 30:57 And like I said, it’s easier. I didn’t realize this, it’s easier for me to talk to black people about racism than white people.
Mauli 31:08 Wow.
GT 31:08 It’s hard for white people to admit that we have skeletons in our closet. We get defensive about it. I talked to Summur-Rayn. I don’t know if you know her. She’s Burgess Owens’ daughter.
Mauli 31:26 Oh, yeah, I know who she is.
GT 31:30 I just like to learn. I think if we can go into this, we as white people, can go into this without defensiveness. Just, I want to learn. I want to understand, it would go a long way towards healing, and just find out what happened. None of us are responsible. I’m not responsible for what happened 200 years ago. But, to learn about it and to empathize with it. I think that’s the best we can do.
Mauli 31:57 You said it exactly the way I like to say it. None of us were there, none of us. Fortunately, and unfortunately, that was not our life to have, to battle with what they battled with 100 and something years ago. But we’re here now. So, what are we going to do? Because we have a responsibility now. We can’t just continue to push it–that carpet is so messed up, so much is underneath there, and we can’t shove anything else under there. So, how are we going to deal with this history today, without carrying the weight of what they did back then? Wow.
GT 32:38 We don’t need to, but we get too defensive and we just need to understand.
Mauli 32:45 Well, I love that we are able to have these conversations, and for people to know that it’s okay. We can talk about it. And we love each other even more now, after talking about it, instead of avoiding it.
GT 32:56 You told me you’re a Lakers fan.
Mauli 32:58 I know. I was going to say–I wasn’t going to do this, but if he wears a [Utah] Jazz shirt, I’m walking out. (Both chuckling) Yeah. So, this is great. It’s really been great.
GT 33:11 All right. Well, Mauli Bonner. I’m looking forward to more of your projects. Go see Green Flake, the movie. It’s on Amazon.
Mauli 33:19 Yeah. Oh, yeah, Amazon. So, the distributor changed the name on Amazon. So, Black Pioneer under Amazon. So if you have Amazon Prime, Black Pioneer. But if you want the DVD, which I think you should get the DVD, Deseret Bookstores, His Name is Green Flake.
GT 33:32 Okay. Well, very good. Well, Mauli, I’m excited to have you back on in a year or so and we’ll talk about Elijah Abel. And thank you so much for being here on Gospel Tangents.
Mauli 33:42 I’ll be back.
GT 33:43 Thanks.
{End of Part 3}
[1] The book is titled “For the Cause of Righteousness,” and can be purchased at https://amzn.to/4aQLF1P
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