It’s Holy Week! Yesterday was Palm Sunday and we’re going to talk about Christ’s Atonement with Dr Diedre Green & Dr Eric Huntsman and their new book “Latter-day Perspectives on Atonement.” There are various models to talk about Christ’s sacrifice and we’ll dive deep into that and discuss how grace ties in. Check out our conversation…
Don’t miss our other conversations about atonement: https://gospeltangents.com/lds_theology/atonement/
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Interview
GT 00:39 All right, everybody. Welcome to Gospel Tangents. I am excited to have two amazing scholars of Mormonism. I almost called you Mormon history scholars. Will Bagley got mad at me when I did that. He said he’s a scholar of Mormonism. He’s not a Mormon history scholar. Anyway, you guys have a great book called Latter Day Saint Perspectives on the Atonement. And so, Deidre, could you go ahead and introduce yourself to our audience and tell us a little bit about yourself?
Deidre 01:10 Sure, I’m happy to. My name is Deirdre Green. I am an assistant professor of Latter-day Saint/Mormon Studies at the Graduate Theological Union in Berkeley, California.
GT 01:22 Awesome. And, Eric, can you go ahead and introduce yourself?
Eric 01:26 Yeah, my name is Eric Huntsman. I’m a professor of ancient scripture at BYU. I actually started my career in classics. So, from 1994 to 2003, I was in the College of Humanities. I did my PhD at U Penn in Ancient History, Greek and Roman history.
GT 01:42 U Penn, you’re an Ivy Leager.
Eric 01:43 Yes. But I moved to ancient scripture in 2003, mostly because of a growing interest in New Testament studies. So, I specialize in New Testament Gospels, particularly John. I’m also on hiatus. I’m the academic director of the Jerusalem Center, but because of sad current events, our program is on hold. So, we came home in November, although my appointment goes through August of 2025. So, hopefully, we’ll get to go back.
GT 02:06 Oh, well, yeah, I’d love to tag along on one of your [trips.] Do you do some tours there in Jerusalem?
Eric 02:14 Between the first stint teaching there in 2011 and then having a chance to go back as Academic Director for a few years, the only way I could find to get back, because it didn’t work out for my family to go teach again, was to do some of those tours. I had a little bit mixed feeling, about doing the same tours, because I didn’t want to be too priestcraft-y, but I love the Holy Land and I love taking people to the sights and teaching there. So, I periodically do tours but won’t until after my appointment is finished.
GT 02:43 Okay. All right. So, did you and Thomas Wayment switch places? Because he’s in Classics now. Didn’t he used to be in Ancient Scriptures?
Eric 02:50 Yeah, so we kind of have mirror careers. He actually was one of the people who touched base with me when I was thinking about doing New Testament Studies and encouraged me to move to Ancient Scripture. And then we were colleagues there for a number of years. And then he has since, as you know, gone to Classics. But we actually overlapped in Ancient Scripture for a good 10-15 years, I think. So, we did reverse patterns. But no, it’s not like we just changed jobs. There was a lot of time in between. I had the chance to work with him in Ancient Scripture. He’s a great guy.
GT 03:24 Yeah. I love Thomas. He’s awesome. I love to have him on. Glad to have you on for the first time. Now, Deidre, Dr. Huntsman mentioned that he got a graduate degree at Penn. Can you give us a little bit about your academic history?
Deidre 03:37 Sure. I did my undergraduate work at BYU. I majored in philosophy but minored in microbiology and planned to become an epidemiologist.
GT 03:48 Oh, me too.
Deidre 03:51 Of course. While serving a mission in South Carolina after graduation, I just had a clear sense that I needed to go to Yale Divinity School. And it was that specific and that’s where I did my masters and then ended up doing a Ph.D. at Claremont in Southern California.
GT 04:08 Oh my goodness. Now, I served my mission in South Carolina.
Deidre 04:13 No!
GT 04:14 True story.
Deidre 04:17 We’ll have a whole conversation about that later.
GT 04:19 Yeah, I’ll bet you that I’m older and that I served before you. (Chuckling) But the whole epidemiology thing, I wasn’t a biology major. I was a statistics guy. And I wanted to become an epidemiologist, too.
Deidre 04:35 Oh, so you really were being serious about that. I thought you were [joking.]
Deidre 04:37 No, yeah. My master’s degree is in biostatistics. I was I was hoping to become, not Dr. Fauci, but, along those lines. But now I just teach, so, it’s good. Well, awesome, very good. So, how did you two get acquainted for this book?
Eric 04:59 Deidre, do you want to go ahead and take that?
Deidre 05:01 Sure. Yeah, it’s quite a long story. I was asked to co-edit a volume on LDS Perspectives on Atonement, back when I was a young Ph.D. student about 15 years ago, and was originally paired with another professor, who subsequently left the church and so was no longer interested in continuing on the project. And it was defunct for a few years. And then, fortunately, Brian Birch, who had been the person who first suggested I take on this project, had the idea that Eric and I could work together. And so, he introduced us. I believe I was living in Copenhagen at the time. So, we were just email introduced. We didn’t really know each other. We exchanged CV’s over email, which is a super nerdy thing to do. But it works for academics. And, so we worked together and we’re able to finish it off and bring it together. And I’ve been really grateful for the relationship that we’ve built over the years.
Eric 06:04 I don’t know why Brian picked me out of the very large pool of people to work with Deidre. I was glad he did. You know, when I moved from Classics to Ancient Scripture, my interest is exegesis, and particularly biblical exegesis. So, I had a particular textual approach to things. But Deirdre is so good at theology, and she’s such a careful reader, and she’s so well versed in Mormon Studies. Sorry, this is going to be kind of a mutual admiration society here. But she’s just got such a good grounding in Mormon Studies, that when she approached me, I thought, “Oh, what do I have to bring to this?” But as many Latter-day Saints, even though I’m more strictly Biblical studies, it’s kind of an occupational hazard. You can’t not be interested in the Book of Mormon. You can’t not be interested in our theology. And so, I was interested in all of these things. And so, I thought, “Well, yeah, I can help vet the scriptural stuff. And she can introduce me to some of the other scholars.” This may come out as we talk about it. But our initial plan was to try to do some reprints of some really seminal early treatments by Gene England and others on atonement. And then as our own project got so much bigger, and we had so many great scholars and new stuff to put in, we didn’t end up doing that. But it was just, really, a great chance to really approach what’s the center. Joseph Smith said, this is what the gospel. It’s the good news that Jesus suffered, died and rose again, and everything else in the restored gospel are just appendages to that.
Eric 07:12 And we can talk more about how this project migrated from one possible venue to another. But, as it ended up, because it’s an academic press, University of Illinois Press, we were able to do I think things with this, that a lot of times when we’re writing in a strictly Latter-day Saint venue, you can’t as much. I thought we were able to be a little deeper in terms of our treatment. And I don’t want to say freer, because it’s not that we’re restricted, but just the conceived audience was different. And so, it gave us a chance to really find people and encourage them to approach their particular topic really in depth, and with a lot of openness. Is that a fair way of describing it Deidre?
Deidre 07:35 Yeah, absolutely.
Eric 08:01 Awesome. So, Deidre, this is, like, a 15-year project for you then?
Deidre 08:24 Yes, a labor of love to be sure.
GT 08:30 It always amazes me how long some of you scholars spend on books. Because I’m just like, I can’t imagine working on something that long. But I did write something 10 years ago on blacks in the priesthood, and it still hasn’t seen the light of day.
Deidre 08:47 Well, I will say, in this case, it definitely was worth the wait. We are both so thrilled with how this came out and the contributors that we had involved and the quality of the work they were able to produce. I just can’t get over the fact that we have a J. Kirk Richards painting on the cover. And all these things came together so beautifully. And just as Eric was saying, the fact that it’s now in a university press instead of an exclusively Mormon press means that it will get a lot more exposure. And so, this was definitely a case where faith paid off and it was definitely worth the wait.
GT 09:27 Now is this for a Latter-day Saint audience or for a broader audience, would you say?
Eric 09:34 Well, because it’s for an Academic Press, we had to really think that through and the introduction, which was in itself quite a project to write. I mean, Deidre and I both contributed essays or chapters of our own to the project, but we had to tie all the contributions together. And so, we conceived of two different audiences. One was for non-Latter-day Saint academics who were interested in Religious Studies specialists who are interested, we call it Latter-day Saint Studies but they call it Mormon Studies. And that’s fine in that context. We wanted to introduce them more to Latter-day Saint approaches to atonement. But, of course, we were hopeful that interested Latter-day Saints would read it. So we say we have these two audiences: on the one hand, outsiders who are interested in knowing more about Latter-day Saint positions on atonement, but also interested insiders who want maybe a deeper dive. So, [the second audience was] an educated but non-specialist audience, which in itself was a challenge, not just in writing our own contributions, but in editing the contributions and working with our contributors to make sure–you know, you can’t just say so and so, General Relief Society President. You have to explain a lot of things that Latter-day Saints take for granted. But that was helpful, because even dealing with the theology, things we take for granted, you had to reexamine in order to express it in more neutral terms and give the background. And that causes us to rethink what we take for granted, if that makes any sense.
GT 11:03 Yeah, absolutely. Well, very good, because as I was looking at the index–and before we get into the names there. I’ve got to ask you, Eric Huntsman, what’s the relationship with Jon?
Eric 11:16 Virtually none, third cousin once removed. So yeah, as I often joke with people when they ask me that question, I’ll say, “Not very close. I still have a mortgage.” (Chuckling)
GT 11:30 Oh, that’s funny. Because I’m looking at the names here, Ben Spackman, who’s a former guest. You did the second chapter, Eric. Ariel Bybee Laughton, I’m not familiar with her. But I do know J.B. Haws. I’ll just hit the ones that I know, Jenny Reader, Adam Miller, Fiona Givens, Joe Spencer, and, of course, Deidre Green. That’s a pretty good all-star lineup of LDS scholars that I recognize, right off the top of my head. So are there are there other non-LDS scholars who’ve contributed to this?
Eric 12:07 No, everyone who contributed is a practicing Latter-day Saint. So, they are all people working within the community. Everyone has a specialty, although, Sharon Harris, who did a great chapter on communal atonement in the Book of Mormon is in English. So, they don’t necessarily need to be in religion or religious studies, per se. But they all have academic training, and brought something in particular to the project that we thought was valuable.
GT 12:35 Okay. How many of these go back 15 years Deidre? How many of these authors?
Deidre 12:42 Oh my gosh, that would be hard to say. I mean, the book definitely went through a large process of development over the years. So, I don’t know, just a couple, really. And that’s part of what I mean that I’m really, in retrospect, glad that the project took so long there. There are people who are a part of this book that wouldn’t have been 15 years ago, maybe because they hadn’t finished their education yet, or whatever it might have been. I just am so pleased. I couldn’t be more pleased with the contributions that they each made.
Models of Atonement
Interview
GT 13:21 Very good. So, atonement, I have to tell you. I remember gosh, I’m remember how long it’s been, at least 10 or 15 years ago. I think I read a Wikipedia article because when we use atonement, especially at church, we all assume that we all understand the same things. And so, I remember I talked to Terryl Givens about three years ago or so, I don’t remember. And I said, “Can you talk about different atonement theologies?” I thought he did a great rundown. But for those who didn’t see my Terryl Givens interview, Deidre, could you give us a rundown on what are– to me, there’s about five of them. Although, when I read Eric’s chapter, I was like, oh, there’s a womanist. There’s a non-violence one, maybe there’s more than [five.]
Deidre 14:14 There’s definitely a lot. I mean, my guess, I haven’t heard your interview with Terryl. My guess is those are more classical, medieval, Reformation-era approaches to thinking about atonement. My specialty is contemporary theology, specifically feminist and womanist thought. So, the kind of critiques and frameworks that I’m working with, primarily, as a scholar are different, although they’re responding to those. I’ll say, Delores Williams, who is one of the pioneers of womanist theology, really helpfully articulates, in her work on atonement, that all of these different frameworks that we have for thinking about the atonement, all of these different models grow out of a certain social and political context. That really frames the way that the questions are asked and approached. And so, I think it’s really helpful to recognize that those different frameworks just give us a slice or a perspective on an aspect of atonement. They’re not definitive in any way, which is part of why we see, in the Book of Mormon, itself, and other parts of the LDS canon, you’ve seen multiple of those models at work together. They’re not necessarily mutually exclusive. They get conflated quite a bit, both in our own thinking as Latter-day Saints and within the Scripture. And so part of what Eric and I tried to emphasize in our introduction is, we draw on the Book of Mormon statement that the Atonement is infinite and eternal. Part of what we want to think about in this context is that there are really an infinite number of ways and perspectives to think about the atonement. And all of these frameworks can be helpful. And they’re helpful in different contexts and at different times to different people. So, part of what I hope will come from this volume is that people will realize that there’s a lot of different frameworks that are possible, that most of the extant frameworks that they may be familiar with have been heavily critiqued and challenged and rethought. But I think that they can all be useful.
Eric 16:27 I think part of the challenge is specialists always will analyze things far more than people who just experienced the atonement. It’s not just that theologians now, or scholars of the ages or Abelard and Anselm, the great medieval people who are thinking about this, came up with particular theories.
{End of Part 1}
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