The Church of Jesus Christ based in Monongahela, PA allows for limited female priesthood ordination of women. We’ll discuss women’s roles with Josh Gehly, an evangelist in the church and discuss Bickertonite Church structure. Is an Evangelist similar to the LDS calling of Seventy? We’ll also discuss differences in baptismal practices. Check out our conversation…
Don’t miss our other conversations with Josh: https://gospeltangents.com/people/josh-gehly
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GT 00:35 Well, let’s go into a few other things here. I’d like to dive a little bit more into your church. We’ve definitely been talking about our similarities here.
Josh 00:45 Yeah.
GT 00:45 Let’s talk a little bit about similarities and differences.
Josh 00:50 Great.
GT 00:51 So, in your church, you serve as an evangelist.
Josh 00:54 I do.
GT 00:55 And when I spoke to you earlier, you have Seventy Evangelists. And so, of course, in the LDS Church, we have a Quorum of Seventy. It sounds like you would be a Seventy, we would call you a Seventy in our church.
Josh 01:11 That would be very comparable. We don’t use that phrasing, really. We do have a Quorum of Seventy. It is our evangelists. And for us, that is the tip of the spear on the missionary efforts around the world for the church. The evangelists and the Quorum of Seventy are the overseers of those projects.
GT 01:30 So, just one Quorum of Seventy?
Josh 01:32 Correct.
GT 01:33 Okay. Because I’m trying to–well, let’s talk a little bit about church structure.
Josh 01:38 Yeah.
GT 01:39 So, you have a president of your church. Would you call him a prophet?
Josh 01:46 We do not. Although, this gets a little away from structure. But we do believe the gift of prophecy is active and alive, and throughout the church. You will see both apostles and members under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit say, “Thus saith the Lord,” and give the word of the Lord. And sometimes those are prophetic utterances. And so that is not limited in the church to a specific role. We would, maybe humbly, make the argument that even scripturally, Isaiah was not necessarily a leader of the church, but he was a prophet. We have room for the gift of prophecy throughout the church, but it’s not necessarily restricted to a specific office. I know that is definitely a difference. That’s something unique, maybe to us. Our presidency, then, to your point is–this is something we changed after the death of Joseph Smith. In the 1800s, we came about with a change. The change was our Quorum of Twelve, the presidency is within the Quorum of Twelve. So, we only have Twelve apostles, and [out of] those 12, the presidency is a functioning unit within the Twelve.
GT 03:02 Okay, so the First Presidency, rather– like in our church, we’ve got 12 plus 3, you’ve just got 12.
Josh 03:09 We’ve got 12, plus zero. (Chuckling)
GT 03:13 And so the First Presidency are also apostles.
Josh 03:17 Correct.
GT 03:18 Because I know in our [church] I believe, I’m pretty sure this is true. In the Community of Christ, their First Presidency is not necessarily an apostle.
Josh 03:30 Okay. That is very different. Our presidency are all apostles. That’s our pool. When it comes to the ministry, electing a president or a counselor, the only available options are our quorum of Twelve apostles.
GT 03:50 Okay. And then do they serve for a set term, or is it a lifetime appointment?
Josh 03:53 Well, it’s always been elected. So it has always been…
GT 03:58 They have a vote?
Josh 03:59 Yeah, we’ve always had a vote.
GT 04:00 And it was not unanimous, like in my church?
Josh 04:03 It doesn’t have to be unanimous. It doesn’t have to be. I don’t know that I’ve ever seen it. I’ve never seen it in my life, although, I have been in the ministry for 15 years. So, that’s not a long time, okay, to qualify that. But I’ve never seen it not unanimous in the church.
GT 04:23 Okay.
Josh 04:24 But it doesn’t have to be. That is not a criteria at all. So, every two years, we elect our President and our counselors. Then the Quorum of Twelve selects and elects their own Quorum of Twelve president, within their body. So, at this time, we made a change a few years ago, where the President would serve two years, up to a total of eight. And there is an option, if the Quorum of Twelve makes a recommendation for an additional two, up to 10.
GT 04:57 Oh?
Josh 04:57 So, that would be..
GT 05:00 You’ve got term limits.
Josh 05:01 Technically we do. Yeah, it’s partly…
GT 05:06 Congress could use that.
Josh 05:07 Yeah. (Both chuckling) I think Congress could learn a lot from my church.
GT 05:11 Well, cool. All right. So, a prophet serves. Every two years he gets elected, again, I guess.
Josh 05:22 Yes.
GT 05:23 And can he, I guess he could step down for health reasons. It is a he?
Josh 05:26 He could step down at any time. It is a he. Our ordained priesthood, our ministry, we would consider the elders, evangelists and apostles of our church. Those are all male.
GT 05:39 Okay. Now you do have, we should add, women who can be ordained as a teacher, which is a priesthood office. Now you don’t…
Josh 05:49 A deaconess.
GT 05:51 A deaconess, oh, I thought it was a teacher, as well.
Josh 05:53 No.
GT 05:53 Oh, it’s only a deaconess.
Josh 05:54 Correct. I mean, women teach in our Sunday school classes. They do teach young people, youth classes around the church, but they’re not ordained into the office of Teacher. The only ordained office we have for women in the church is the office of Deaconess. We find that in Romans Chapter 16, verses one and two. Paul is commending Phoebe. My daughter is named Phoebe. And Paul’s commending Phoebe. She was extending the church and allowing them to hold the church meetings in her home under great distress and persecution. Paul commends her and he calls her and he uses the word diakonia. The word there is the same that you would find in Acts Chapter 6, when they call the deacons. So, that’s our scriptural reference point to say [that] the New Testament Church had had both male and female deacons. So, we have, basically, it’s the same office. We give different roles, but it’s the same office, so that we have ordained deaconesses in the church, and it’s a beautiful office of service and love.
GT 06:58 Do they minister only to women or to men and women, as well?
Josh 07:01 Well, the role of Deacon in the church and Deaconess in the church is a serviceable role throughout the congregation. They are maintaining and doing a lot of the natural affairs. If you remember, in Acts Chapter 6, there’s dispute over some of–who’s going to visit the widows? Who’s going to take care of this need? We need to be in the Word of God. We need to be preaching the word. How do we maintain this growth? How do we handle this situation? The office of Deacon gets created. So, for us, a lot of the support to the ministry comes through the deacons and deaconesses. They’re taking roles and responsibilities from the ministry. They’re never laying on hands on anybody or administrating any of the church ordinances in that way. But they’re taking some of the load off the ministry, so that we can be more free to preach the Word of God and service our sheep, our membership, and evangelize the church around the world. Without our deacons and deaconesses, we wouldn’t have as much freedom to do that.
GT 08:05 Okay, so they can’t do any laying on of hands.
Josh 08:09 They’re not laying on hands. They’re not baptizing. They’re not serving the Lord’s Supper, but they’re doing a lot of the background spiritual and natural things that help keep the engine going.
GT 08:20 Okay, and that could be for men or women.
Josh 08:23 Yes, so we ordain both males and females. We call them Deacons and Deaconesses. But in the New Testament Church, it’s the same word. It’s the diakaonia.
GT 08:33 And so you don’t make a distinction, like we do in our church with a Melchizedek and Aaronic priesthood, it’s just the priesthood.
Josh 08:39 Correct. Rick, it’s a great question. In Alma 12 and Alma 13, we see one priesthood after the order of the Son of God. That’s how we read that scripture when Alma is talking about the holy priesthood after the order of the Son of God. When I read through the whole Book of Mormon, I never find a place where I see two priesthoods functioning. This is a difference. And I’m saying this in all respect. But for us, I don’t read the Book of Mormon and find any place where I see two priesthoods functioning at the same time period. I can see priests and prophets and leaders throughout the text, but I never see a delineation of role and responsibility within the body at the same time to say, ‘No, there’s two layers to this.’ I don’t see that. And I would argue [that] I don’t see that in the book of Acts, either. Our church and our structure is trying to follow, that’s our fourth article of our faith and doctrine is to try and follow the New Testament Church as close as we possibly can. So, whether that’s in Corinthians or in Ephesians Chapter 4, where it says there’s apostles, prophets, evangelists, elders, teachers, for the work of the ministry, and for the perfecting of the saints. It even says in 4:13, he says, “Until we come under the measure of a perfect man in the fullness of the stature.” So, it’s meant to be, prophetically, the structure of the church until Christ returns. That’s Ephesians 4:13. We believe we have that structure. We don’t believe that there’s layers of multiple priesthoods within that structure. It’s just not something we read into the text. We do recognize that there was a man named Melchizedek who was in the ministry. We do recognize that there were Levites who were in the ministry, but those are different time periods, not different layers within the same time. That’s our interpretation of that for what it’s worth.
GT 10:46 So for some reason, I thought you had the office of Teacher, as well.
Josh 10:51 We do have the office of Teacher.
GT 10:52 Is that a priesthood position?
Josh 10:52 We do consider it part of the priesthood. We do have the office of teacher. It’s a male ordained office. We find it in the New Testament and even find it in the Book of Mormon. There are ordained teachers in the Book of Mormon. And so, we do believe it’s an office of the church and we have that. This is a group. They don’t baptize per se. They’re not administrating the ordinances. They’re not laying on of hands, but we do consider them part of the ministry. That’s the same ministry that I uphold, but with different responsibility.
GT 11:30 Okay, so one of the coolest things, and I’m so glad I attended your church, because we can have these conversations, but sometimes you don’t think even to ask something until somebody says something really weird.
Josh 11:46 Yeah, you hear something different.
GT 11:48 Yes, and so I went with Steve and we went, I guess it was Forest Hills branch there in Florida. A woman in the congregation came up to me. Of course I said I was LDS. She told me that she had attended an LDS baptism. She was really surprised that they baptized at age eight, that the LDS baptized at age eight. I was, like, well–we need to get into the Doctrine & Covenants. So, I was like, “Well, that’s in the Doctrine & Covenants.”
Josh 12:24 And we’re like, well…
GT 12:25 We don’t have that. So, I guess there’s another big difference.
Josh 12:29 Yeah.
GT 12:30 I swear the Seventy is also in the Doctrine & Covenants, too. So, I’d be curious where that comes from.
Josh 12:36 Luke Chapter 10.
GT 12:38 Luke, Chapter 10, okay, we’ll get there in just a second. But it was so interesting, because in your church, you don’t have [the D&C.] We would say the age of accountability is age eight. You typically don’t baptize somebody until they’re at least a teenager, and often a late,18-19-20 year-old, almost adult. It’s only when they say, “I feel ready. I feel called,” or whatever.
Josh 13:07 Exactly.
GT 13:08 That was very interesting to me, because I was like, ‘oh, you thought that was weird? That’s normal for us.’
Josh 13:14 Exactly. Yeah.
GT 13:16 And so, in our Doctrine & Covenants, a priest can baptize, whereas an elder can lay on of hands. Is that the same in your church?
Josh 13:27 Yes. So for our church, as far as administrating any of the ordinances or laying on of hands, that’s going to be the ministry. In that we would view that as the elders, evangelists and apostles, that are administrating all of those ordinances and are the overseers of the flock.
GT 13:43 Elders, evangelists and apostles, okay.
Josh 13:45 Yeah. So, when it comes to age of accountability, that’s something we would probably respectfully disagree on and have discussion on. We both read Mormon’s words, of don’t baptize little children.
GT 14:00 Infants, yeah.
Josh 14:00 There’s probably no question in my church, we would look at an eight-year-old as a little child. We just would. Now you view that as a little bit more ready, we do not. We don’t baptize an eight-year-old child.
GT 14:15 The youngest would probably be about 12. Is that right?
Josh 14:17 Twelve would be…
GT 14:19 That’s probably really pushing it, too.
Josh 14:20 What would be the discussion point, if they asked, we would be, honestly, as a ministry, asking ourselves, are they really understanding repentance? Have we really seen the fruit of repentance. Because the plan of salvation, of course, we’ve laid out what the gospel is, which brings about the plan of redemption. And the plan of redemption is based on faith, repentance, and baptism, as laid out in both the Bible and Book of Mormon. And so with that being said, faith cometh by hearing, hearing by the Word of God. So, you have to hear the gospel message as it’s declared in purity, spirit and in truth, as given to us so clearly in 3rd Nephi 27. You hear the message, you go, I believe! I believe in the Lord. I believe He died to save my sins and redeem me at the last day. And if you believe that and you’re convicted in your heart, and you feel the spirit of repentance, and repentance in the Hebrew means to turn. It’s turning your back to your previous life of sin and facing the Lord. So, repentance is that turning. That’s what we would question at the young age, and the ministry would need to be united at a local level of, yes, this child or this young person. I’m going to rephrase it to this young person understands and has felt and we see the fruits of the spirit of repentance upon them. They’re ready to make a lifelong covenant with their master, and come to the waters of regeneration, which for us would only occur in an open body of living water.
GT 15:55 Oh, there’s another one [difference.]
Josh 15:58 We just had two baptisms last week. My heart was torn in two, because we were here in Utah, which is wonderful. But back at my home branch, the Sunday before, a beautiful experience. We work a lot with our young people. We do a lot of inner-city work in the Erie branch of the church, where I’m from. In our inner-city work, we do clothing of individuals. We’ve done a lot of outreach and we’re blessed with a nice congregation of Congolese refugees. And so, we work with our young people there. And we’re a fun, dynamic branch. If you want to hear some Swahili and some singing in some foreign languages of African languages and prayers in French, come to my branch. We’re dynamic, and it’s beautiful. It’s fun. We have a great group of young people. Two of our young people asked, the last Sunday I was in Erie, before shipping off here to be with you, a beautiful experience. A young man was testifying about how the Lord spared him, somebody in the inner city pulled a gun on him. The Lord held him silent. The Lord spared his life. He stood up, and the spirit of repentance was all over him. And the gift of tongues was spoken. And the interpretation was, “I spared you, saith the Lord. Will you serve me?” And I’ll tell you, I’ve worked, as you know, we’re charismatic. We believe in the gifts of the Spirit, and we believe they’re alive in our church. So, I’ve grown up having the gift of tongues, in congregations, and believing in that gift. When our brother was speaking in tongues, I’ve never felt this before. I felt like in 3rd Nephi, when the Lord speaks in 3rd Nephi 11,when the Lord speaks, and they don’t understand the words, but it says that it cut them to the center. And their spirit was burning. I felt that. And JP when he asked for it, he felt that. That that went right into us from the Lord. And JP felt the call. And, actually, after the service, he asked for his baptism and his sister shortly followed. So, this last Sunday, we were up here with our members that we have here, who had a wonderful meeting out here with our little group that’s in the Utah greater area in Salt Lake City greater area. And when we were out here, I was getting pictures all morning of JP and Marci in the waters of Lake Erie. It was beautiful.
GT 18:24 It’s got to be freezing cold, though.
Josh 18:27 It’s freezing cold. My first baptism I performed, we had chainsaws out and we cut through 18 inches of ice.
GT 18:33 Oh my gosh, because it has to be in an open body of water.
Josh 18:36 We do an open body of water. Yeah, because the Lord…
GT 18:39 And why don’t they wait until it gets warm?
Josh 18:40 Well, there were pools available to Jesus. The pool of Siloam was available to Jesus. He chose to be baptized in a filthy, dirty little river. That was his choice which I would argue, that was his example. And we want to follow the Lord.
GT 19:02 Well, so it was fun. Was December when Reid got baptized?
Josh 19:06 Yeah, also a cold day, right? I wasn’t there. But you were there.
GT 19:10 I was there. I’ll have to post the video again. But I was just like, man, I would wait until it’s at least warmer. But it was in the Jordan River, which was, super fun. The Jordan River, Utah, the Jordan River, Israel is not the same.
Josh 19:21 That was the first baptism in the Jordan River for the Church of Jesus Christ in 2000 years.
GT 19:29 (Chuckling) That was the first baptism–because you guys haven’t had any members. Well, there was another family, I guess. But they…
Josh 19:35 We really have not had a presence in Utah, any time, not any real footprint.
GT 19:41 Didn’t William Bickerton come out here to straighten us Mormons all out
Josh 19:45 He never came out. He never came out. The invitation is there, though.
GT 19:52 Because I know, sometimes the RLDS Church would have people come out and, especially, I can’t remember which Prophet it was, but he spoke in the tabernacle and didn’t get an especially good reception.
Josh 20:07 Oh, okay. Sorry for that.
GT 20:09 They were always trying to convert us, let us know that polygamy was not the way of God and that sort of thing. And so, I’m surprised William, he was focused on Kansas it seems like. He was preaching with the Lamanites.
Josh 20:22 Yeah, he was, for a time. He was focused there and really tried to build something there. Actually, the church made two significant attempts there. [It] never went [anywhere.] I had a great, great grandfather that was in Kansas for round two. It fizzled, and it was frustrating.
GT 20:41 Oh, really?
Josh 20:42 Yeah, it was frustrating for the church. It was not a successful missionary endeavor.
GT 20:53 So, it’s taken until 2000, I guess, technically, it was December of 2023, to have your first baptism here, and now you’re trying to build a congregation. And so, the job of a Seventy is to do outreach, to do missionary work.
Josh 21:14 Yes.
GT 21:14 And then once you got a congregation here, you’ll send different Seventies out here to help out. is that right?
Josh 21:20 Absolutely, and we’re sending young people and we’re sending sisters, actually, on just about every trip. We’re sending a little bit of everything. We want music in the congregation. We want to be, even though we’re going to be small, if we’re starting something, we want to be showing the best of the church. So we want music talent there. We want brothers and sisters there. We want ministry there, and there’s probably going to be an evangelist there for the near while. But if there’s a trip with a couple of ministers, with a couple elders, that’s great, too.
GT 21:64 Okay, so it doesn’t have to be a [Seventy.]
Josh 21:55 It doesn’t have to be, but it probably will be for a little while here. We’re just trying to–anybody, I have had dear friends, even this weekend, come to a Saturday night meeting and they are staunch and faithful LDS apologists. They came in supportive, and I was touched to have them. They enjoyed the meeting together. So, for us, our doors are open. Everybody’s welcome. Today, more than ever, in the Utah area, and in the Idaho area, we are holding church meetings. There is an opportunity for those that would [like to attend.] It’s not about turf. But if you’d like to experience a meeting of the Church of Jesus Christ, we have that available. We’re going to be servicing Utah, probably every two months, something along those lines, we’ll be out. Because we want to take care of our members. They can certainly attend our online platforms. But that’s not enough.
GT 22:54 Right.
Josh 22:55 We need to partake of the bread and the wine. And so, we need to wash feet together. We need to have the ordinances together. We need to pray for people. We need to service those that the Lord has called. And so we’re going to do that. And when we do that, the doors are open for anyone that would like to check us out.
GT 23:12 Yeah.
{End of Part 3}
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