What’s it like to attend a Bickertonite Church service? Rick Bennett (LDS) & Josh Gehly (Bickertonite) share their experiences attending the Church of Jesus Christ. Did you know that each week, they ask the congregation if they would like to receive a blessing by laying on of hands? Find out more in our next conversation…
Don’t miss our other conversations with Josh: https://gospeltangents.com/people/josh-gehly
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GT 0:35 It’s so fun. Going back both to my meeting in Florida, as well as when I attended Reid’s baptism a couple of months ago, in both cases, and I believe you do this every week. Correct me if I’m wrong. You have what we would [call,] I guess, the first hour is usually Sunday school. Is that right? [You meet] for about an hour.
Josh 01:00 Yes, we’d like to do a scripture study. We like to give something for the kids. Usually that’s happening first.
GT 01:07 And so that’s typically Bible, Book of Mormon preaching sort of thing.
Josh 01:12 Yes, very much so engaged; Hopefully, it’s done, right, unless it’s really, really—the spirit takes over, which we’re okay with that, usually, it’s Q&A. Let’s read these verses. Let’s talk about them. What does this mean for you? What’s the Lord speaking here? It can be really, if it’s done right, hopefully, we’re really engaging with the congregation where they feel a part of the lesson.
GT 01:37 And so then the second hour, you usually have what we would call a sacrament meeting. I don’t know if you call it communion or sacrament.
Josh 01:48 Communion is fine. Often, I call it the Lord’s Supper. It’s all fair.
GT 01:53 Do you do that every week?
Josh 01:54 Every Sunday, yes.
GT 01:55 Okay, so that’s similar to ours.
Josh 01:56 Sometimes we have the freedom. This is something that’s a little unique. If there’s a meeting, and a minister feels to have communion on a Wednesday, great!
GT 02:09 Okay.
Josh 02:10 Now, does that happen? Not very often. But that is certainly allowed. We have done that. I mean, it’s under inspiration. When the Spirit speaks, we really want to be the church that Moroni talks about, where he says, “Our meetings were conducted after the manner of the workings of the spirit, whether to pray, whether to preach or exhort, to supplicate, to sing.” We want to be that. And so yeah, we have [in our meetings,] you’re going to see a Sunday School lesson. You’re going to see some type of worship service. There is going to be the Lord’s Supper there. Usually, there’s going to be testimonies, opportunity for people stand up and praise God. You’re going to have the opportunity to have hands laid on you for strength or for anointing, for healing. Those things are all offered, and typical. But the way that might get mixed up, or on a random Wednesday, you come in and all of a sudden, the table is set. And now we’re in for a spiritual good time together.
GT 03:10 Okay. And that was what I found interesting was, we would have a testimony meeting once a [month] and in our church, it’s almost always on the first Sunday. Sometimes we’ll move it to the second Sunday or the last Sunday, whatever. But typically, it’s the first Sunday of the month, we will have a testimony meeting. But it seems like you have a testimony meeting, or what we would call testimony meeting every week.
Josh 03:33 Yeah. Our meetings are not short. If you want to critique us and walk out and say, “That was long.” I’m going to be like, yeah, that’s us. So, we have testimony almost every Sunday. It’s just pretty standard. It allows the congregation to stand up and glorify God for what he’s done for them.
GT 03:55 Right. Oh, well, and also, just to make sure that people are clear on this, you don’t say, “Brother Bennett, would you give us a talk on tithing next week?” You don’t give anybody any notice. (Chuckling)
Josh 04:08 Right.
GT 04:10 They just have to [speak] just as the spirit moves. Right?
Josh 04:13 Amen. Yeah. For testimony, we’re not picking [people.] I mean, sometimes we would say, “Hey, would you [speak to you? ” If it’s a special preaching service, maybe, or maybe at a conference, the Quorum might have a few testimonies that they’ve heard of throughout the year, and they might ask that. But on a typical branch, which would be like your ward, a typical branch Sunday, anybody can stand up and testify. When it comes to the actual sermon, the actual preaching part of the meeting, yeah, we don’t know who’s going to speak until opening prayer. Maybe before, maybe the ministry gets together before and they’re praying, and the Lord directs somebody. That happens, too. But the night before, you don’t necessarily know. We’re looking for the Spirit to lead.
GT 05:02 Do you just have to have a talk in your back pocket and be like…
Josh 05:05 Yeah.
GT 05:06 Well, nobody ever has a talk. Because I know in the LDS Church, people will read their talks or whatever. But everything is extemporaneous.
Josh 05:15 Correct. I would even argue, maybe very similar to the early 1830s church that way, where it was not. I mean, the early 1830s church was experiencing healings in the congregation. They were preaching in the Spirit of God and seemed pretty free. Now, one thing that’s very different is, I do not preach for two and a half hours like Sidney Rigdon. I don’t know how he did it. I don’t know that I would want to listen for that long. I don’t think I’d want to sit up front while he’s going for that long. So, our sermons are not that long. But I would say that it’s very free flowing in that way and very open and that we’re looking for direction that’s not from our own minds.
GT 06:03 Yeah, and the other thing that really caught my attention was not only at church, but at the baptism service, as well, you always–well, I’ve only been twice, I guess, so I can’t say always. But it seems like always.
Josh 06:17 Yes, two for two.
GT 06:19 You will ask, is there anybody who would like to receive a blessing by laying out of hands? And you will do that in the meeting.
Josh 06:28 Yes.
GT 06:28 In front of the congregation.
Josh 06:30 I mean, unless I forget, I’m doing that.
GT 06:34 And so you don’t have to be a member of your church to do that.
Josh 06:39 No, anybody is welcome to receive from the Lord. We are more than willing to lay hands on non-members, addicts, sinners in a slum, homeless man on the street. That’s not limited to a church building.
GT 06:56 Right. Well, and even–if you don’t want me to ask this, I’ll cut it out.
Josh 07:00 You ask anything you want.
GT 07:03 I talked to you a couple of days ago. And as we were arranging the interview, and you were driving somewhere to give a blessing. Do you mind sharing that? Is that okay?
Josh 07:14 Yeah, it’s okay. We have some members that had a relative, not somebody that knew our church necessarily very directly. They may know of them because of their family. But they were not members of the church. They had somebody that was dying. They had somebody that was dying with a combination of COVID, which had led to multiple heart attacks and heart failure. So, they really didn’t have a minister that was available readily. Actually, they had a family member that was flying in that was a minister that wasn’t going to be in till later that night. So, I got the call. And so, the next day, I drove. I got the call late, late, late Sunday night or Monday night and drove out the next day. I was with the family. I had prayer with them multiple times. Actually, the young brother that was with me had a beautiful vision. He saw an angel at the foot of the bed, which was very comforting for the family. Then we anointed this gentleman, Lamar. The blessing, I think, out of it all, I mean, the time with the family was very comforting, soothing. I think the blessing through it all was he passed, just before the other family members’ minister from some different church was even there. So, we were able to minister while he was still alive. That was a real blessing. I think the blessing for me was that we were able to offer that comfort and love and attention to the gentleman and to his family. We were able to do that before he passed. I’m very thankful for that.
GT 09:01 Yeah. And I will say in the other one meeting that I attended, this gift of healing was really highly spoken of. I don’t know if you know. Do you know Patrick McKay?
Josh 09:15 I do.
GT 09:16 He’s the author of Healing the Breach. He’s an apostle for the Joint Conference of Restoration Branches.
Josh 09:22 The independent branches.
GT 09:24 And so, in that book, it’s called Healing the Breach, and I think it should be renamed, “Answers to Prayers,” because everything was about a prayer.
Josh 09:35 Exactly.
GT 09:36 And he included LDS, Bickertonite, Strangite, [groups] throughout the entire Restoration. He’s one of these guys who really wants to unify the LDS, Bickertonite, Strangite [groups.] He would love to–and honestly, I think all of us think that’s a great idea. In the LDS Church, we’re like, “Well, they need to join us. We don’t join them.”
Josh 09:58 I mean, honestly, in our church, we’re the same way. That’s our perspective. Your church believes in sole authority. We believe in sole authority. So, we have the exact same position, just on the opposite side of the Mississippi River for our headquarters.
GT 10:18 You’re probably about as far from Mississippi as we are, too.
Josh 10:20 I think so.
GT 10:22 That’s funny. But you know, it’s interesting to read that book, especially. Because there were so many stories of healing blessings.
Josh 10:34 Thank God.
GT 10:34 And it seems, I don’t know if your church is, sometimes we think only our church has miracles. But lots of churches have miracles.
Josh 10:43 I thank God for how he works and how he reveals to his creation. And I praise God for that. The gift of healing is something I’ve been really blessed with in my life. I share this a lot. My daughter is going to get sick of me sharing this. She’s not old enough to get sick of it yet, but my daughter was born with a genetic deficiency. And I thank God. My wife and I chose praise. When Phoebe was born, my wife and I chose praise, because she was born with a genetic deficiency, but it was [serious.] I’m going to call it, genetic deficiencies. I don’t think any of them are minor. But comparatively, it was minor because it was something where she had what they called Biotinidase Deficiency. Biotin is Vitamin K. And she had an inability to process enough of that in a regular diet.
GT 10:39 Oh.
Josh 10:40 So, you would need to supplement Vitamin K/Biotin for the rest of your life. That’s the diagnosis, basically. She was diagnosed with that, and my wife and I chose praise. We praised the Lord because so many families go through losses of children or however many other things that are difficult. But one thing that happened that was interesting was I did not anoint my daughter. I prayed for my daughter, but I didn’t lay hands and anoint my daughter. And at one point my wife asked me, Bree asked me, she says, “Josh, why haven’t you anointed Phoebe?”
I just told her. My dad had COVID at the time. He couldn’t see his granddaughter yet. I told Bree. I said, “I can’t explain this, but I’m going to wait for dad. Dad’s going to anoint Phoebe.” And I don’t know why I felt that way. There’s no explanation, except the Lord had something in the works that I couldn’t put my finger on.
We started the supplements. I mean, [we were] mixing it in with the milk and we were doing what was going to now be a lifetime routine. Because if you don’t, that nutrient [is essential.] Parents used to find out about this because their children were going blind. They weren’t communicating right, because they had been missing the supplement for two or three years. So now it’s standard bloodwork. Now it’s automatic in the hospitals. So you know, day one. Hey, the blood work came back. Here it is. It’s one out of, I don’t know, 100,000, give or take. So, my dad, eventually, then, two weeks later, he anoints Phoebe. And my daughter today is not biotin deficient.
GT 13:31 Oh, wow.
Josh 13:32 She’s healed completely. She’s not on any supplements. She doesn’t need any supplements. I got phone calls after the third test from family doctors saying, “I’m really sorry. I don’t know what happened.” We called the genetic specialist and they’re like, “We looked at the third test. We can’t explain the first one. She’s not biotin deficient anymore. You don’t need to come in.
GT 13:57 Wow.
Josh 13:58 My daughter is completely healed and healthy and fun and bubbly and going to turn three in April. So, I praise the Lord. Healings are alive in the church. Blessings and miracles are alive in the church. It’s something that we don’t deserve. But we thank God for.
GT 14:17 Well, very good. That’s awesome. Now the term evangelist, I’m going to ask about this, also. In the Community of Christ, well, maybe I should start with the LDS Church. In the LDS Church, we have a position called a patriarch. Of course, the first patriarch was Joseph Smith, Sr. And then after he died, Hyrum Smith became the church patriarch, and typically it’s been along the Smith line. Although within our church, you don’t have to be a Smith descendant, necessarily, to be a patriarch. They give what’s called a patriarchal blessing. Typically, in our church, you only get one, maybe two in your lifetime. It’s a blessing, usually from a stake patriarch, and it will talk about things in your future and that sort of thing. In the Community of Christ, of course, in 1984, they allowed women to hold the priesthood, and so they allow women to become what we would call a patriarch. I joked with my friend, Deb Luce. I said, “Can I call you matriarch?” And she says, “No, that makes me sound too old.”
Josh 15:26 Oh, Deb’s awesome. I love Deb. Do you go on? Have you ever been on their Book of Mormon Perspectives? You talked the other day. Right?
GT 15:31 Yes, I was there when you were there.
Josh 15:33 Okay, great.
GT 15:34 And I’ve spoken three times.
Josh 15:35 They’re awesome.
GT 15:37 And Deb is always there. So, they’ve changed it to the more generic term, evangelist. And so, their evangelist is different than your evangelist.
Josh 15:47 Okay. Yeah.
GT 15:48 Because she’s not a Seventy. Seventy as a separate thing. We need to go back there, too, again. Well, the interesting thing about Deb was, she said that a person, you could have–I don’t think that there [is a limit.] You could have multiple “patriarchal blessings” for LDS terminology, or evangelist’s blessings. She was very free. Her job is to bless people.
Josh 16:23 Amazing.
GT 16:24 And she will say, “Oh, you’ve got a back pain or whatever. Can I bless you?” That’s what she does. She’s constantly looking to literally bless people with the oil and the laying out of hands. So, two questions, because I just remembered one other one that popped into my head. Number one, do you have a similar position in your church, what we would call patriarch?
Josh 16:49 No.
GT 16:50 No, okay.
Josh 16:51 First, I love and respect Deb, love and respect her. I love and respect her ministry. But no, we don’t have that office, or role in any way in the church. It was definitely there in the 1830s. I mean, Joseph Smith, Sr., held that office, but it’s not something that we have had, really since the church came east. Daniel could probably clarify whether we ever had it or not. I’m not aware.
GT 17:16 I didn’t think to ask him. It was a three-hour interview, anyway.
Josh 17:18 He would know better than me, without question. Maybe, Larry Watson or Joe Inani might know, as well, past church historian, current church historian. But we haven’t had it in any relevant time since the 1860s. I’d be confident in saying that. And so, it’s not a part of the churches as I’ve ever known it.
GT 17:42 And then the other question that I had, was, when you attend somebody else’s church, you’re traying to pay attention to every little detail. So, typically, when LDS men give a blessing, especially a blessing of healing, we will anoint with oil. And typically, one person does that. There’s just a really short prayer, “I anoint you with oil,” basically. And then the other person will usually seal that blessing.
Josh 18:14 I’ve heard this. I’ve heard this. I’ve never seen that in person, I don’t think.
GT 18:21 I couldn’t tell, especially at the baptism, because I was really trying to pay attention. I couldn’t tell if they were–because in the LDS Church, it’s two separate prayers. The anointing is a really short one, like, I anoint you. And then in the name of Jesus Christ, amen, basically. And then the other person gives an extemporaneous blessing as directed by the Spirit. Are those two different things, or do you just anoint and then bless at the same time?
Josh 18:49 Yeah. So for us, where we go is James, where it says, “If there’s any sick among you, the elders will anoint.” And so for us, we offer one prayer. Somebody who is sick comes up front, or we’re in their home, and we’re anointing somebody. We go and we put a little oil on their head. The oil has been blessed by the Ministry ahead of time. We pour blessed oil, it’s always olive oil for us.
GT 19:17 Same with us.
Josh 19:18 And so hands are laid on. Now, say there’s like two ministers or three ministers there, something like that. Maybe all of them lay hands on, but the brother that goes–hands that are on the head, are the ones offering the prayer audibly.
GT 19:35 Right.
Josh 19:36 But there is no second prayer that follows after that.
GT 19:40 Okay.
Josh 19:40 You definitely will see, if there’s a location where there’s a lot of ministry, sometimes some ministers don’t get up. Like if there’s at a conference and there’s a lot of people and a lot of ministers, they may not all get up and just swarm the candidate. It might just be a handful that feel directed to come. Even if there’s a large group, the ministers might all lay hands or hold hands, except for the one [speaking.] You’ll see it that way as well.
GT 20:05 That’s how I saw it in Florida.
Josh 20:07 Yeah, Florida at Forest Hills, they probably have over 10 ministers in that congregation. Even if all 10 are surrounding the candidate, one would step forward and offer the prayer. Now are others praying quietly in the spirit, or are you probably hearing some amens and yay lords and some of that? Probably, probably a little bit.
GT 20:30 Yeah, so that was the other interesting thing, because, I know, having been there, and maybe I should ask about priesthood ordination. In the LDS Church, for the men who generally progressed from Deacon, to Teacher, to Priest, to Elder, and then maybe High Priest, that’s actually changed in the last few years. But I can remember as a kid sitting there, and you’ve got like, 10 sets of hands on your head, and you’re like, my neck is starting to hurt.
Josh 21:02 And then they all twist and they crack your neck.
GT 21:05 And so it was interesting to see in Florida, especially, it was just one person that would put their hands on the head, and then everybody else held hands.
Josh 21:12 You’ll see it both ways. Usually, when it’s a smaller group of ministers, maybe there’s a hand on the back, a hand on that head, something like that. As long as two hands are on the head from the minister that’s offering the prayer, that’s the primary [method.] Everything else is a little flexible.
GT 21:32 It’s so fun to attend church, because you get to pick up things that you would never even think to ask.
Josh 21:41 Absolutely. I remember when I was in college, and this is a little bit of a tangent, but we’re on Gospel Tangents.
GT 21:46 Exactly.
Josh 21:47 I explored. I did everything. If there was a group of Islamic people, but, you know, they don’t allow Gentiles into an official [meeting,] certain meetings. But to introduce and share their faith, I would go. That’s where I attended my first LDS ward was in State College, Pennsylvania.
GT 22:07 Oh wow.
Josh 22:08 And I went to a couple of meetings. I was in one. It happened to be there testimony Sunday, and it was very nice. I enjoyed it. That was the first time I saw the Lord’s Supper passed with bread and water. Because for us, it’s bread and wine. You guys were very, and don’t take this the wrong way, but very much like I had seen on some of my mom’s side that are from Methodist or Presbyterian, where you’re doing a small cup. You guys do that, similarly, versus us doing a common cup. So, I love attending different churches. In fact, I tell some of our young brothers when they’re with me on a mission trip, when’s the last time you went somewhere? And a lot of times I’m getting a, what do you mean? I’m like, go, go experience something.
GT 22:39 It’s good.
Josh 22:54 Yeah, it’s not an unhealthy thing. I believe in what we have. I’m not worried about you. Go experience. I mean, don’t partake in it. Go watch. Go witness. It’s okay.
GT 23:05 And just so you know, the LDS Church did a common cup until the Spanish Flu of 1918.
Josh 23:11 Is that when it stopped? I didn’t know the timing.
GT 23:14 Yeah.
Josh 23:14 I didn’t know the timing. When did wine change?
GT 23:19 That was in the 1800s, I think.
Josh 23:23 We have too many Italians. Wow. Wine is not going to change.
GT 23:25 Oh, and that’s another thing, since you mentioned that, because that was what popped in my head earlier. Why do you have so many Italians in your church?
Josh 23:33 Well, that was Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh was English and a lot of Italian immigrants in the early 1900s. When our church began to grow and spread at the turn of the century, 1800s to 1900s, turn towards the 20th century, that was a large influx of Italian immigrants were in Pittsburgh and a large influx in our church. It happened that way. And at the time, almost in the early 1900s, Youngstown, which is a huge Italian area.
GT 24:08 Ohio. They’ve got a good football team there.
Josh 24:10 Ohio, that was almost like the second headquarters.
GT 24:12 I think Urban Meyer was there, as the coach of that football team.
Josh 24:14 He didn’t go to church, though. We’ve still got some work to do.
GT 24:20 But yeah, I’ve always wondered why. Because I’ve heard that you have a lot of Italians. And so that’s because of Pittsburgh and Youngstown. I think they’re right next to each other.
Josh 24:30 Very close. Very close. Yeah. Yeah.
GT 24:32 And so you’re from Pennsylvania. Are you near Pittsburgh?
Josh 24:35 I’m two hours north.
GT 24:37 Okay. Yeah.
Josh 24:37 I’m close. Yeah.
GT 24:39 So, you’re a Steelers fan, not an Eagles fan?
Josh 24:41 You know, my brother had a friend that was a Niners fan. So, I grew up a Niners fan because of my big bro.
GT 24:49 Really, so you were very disappointed with the Superbowl?
Josh 24:51 Well, since being ordained in the ministry, I’ll be honest. I stick to college football. First because if God doesn’t love Penn State, then why is the sky blue and white?
GT 25:01 (Chuckling)
Josh 25:01 So that seems obvious, all right? And second because my Sundays are so busy. I don’t watch football on Sundays. I’m not against it. I don’t have time. I love sports but I really have no preference as far as Sunday football goes.
GT 25:18 I didn’t know you were such a Penn State fan, but it makes sense.
Josh 25:23 Oh yeah, I bleed blue and white, brother. Yeah.
GT 25:27 You know the people that BYU always say that and I say, can you prove that to me? Because it sure looks red on most people?
Josh 25:35 Yeah, same colors.
GT 25:36 Exactly. I always say “Choose the Red.”
Josh 25:37 We’ve got a lot in common. We’re both Panthers. Mine is just extinct.
GT 25:42 Well, your a Nittany Lion is actually a cougar.
Josh 25:45 Yeah.
GT 25:46 So it should be the Penn State Cougars.
Josh 25:48 Hey, how about that? They used to be pink and black in the 1800s. They changed the colors.
GT 25:54 Oh, I didn’t know that.
Josh 25:55 Yeah, there you go. Fun. Fun fact of the Penn State.
GT 25:58 Wow. See the things you learn here on Gospel Tangents.
{End of Part 4}
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