Josh Gehly is an evangelist from the Church of Jesus Christ. His church dates back to the days of Sidney Rigdon and is sometimes called the Bickertonite Church. Josh has written a new book “Witnessing Miracles” that provides evidence for both the resurrection of Jesus Christ and the Book of Mormon. We’ll get acquainted with Josh and his book. Check out our conversation…
Don’t miss our other conversations with Josh: https://gospeltangents.com/people/josh-gehly
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GT 00:45 Welcome to Gospel Tangents. I’m excited to have a second member of the Church of Jesus Christ, based in Monongahela, Pennsylvania [on the show.] Sometimes we call them the Bickertonites. Could you go ahead and tell us who you are and what your calling in your church is?
Josh 01:00 Hi, everybody. My name is Josh Gehly. I’m an ordained evangelist in the Church of Jesus Christ.
GT 01:05 All right. Well, that’s exciting. Daniel Stone was my previous member of your church. [He] wrote a book about William Bickerton. I will encourage you guys to check that out. He’s a historian. Josh is not, but he’s written an amazing book, “Witnessing Miracles: Historical Evidence for the Resurrection and the Book of Mormon.” One of the interesting things, and I did warn Josh [that] I was going to ask him about this. I think it’s the only book about the Book of Mormon that quoted Hugh Hefner.
Josh 01:37 Right off the bat! {both laughing}
GT 01:40 And so it was a fantastic book. Why would you put Hugh Hefner in a book about the Book of Mormon?
Josh 01:47 Yeah, absolutely. Well, Hugh should have read the Book of Mormon a little bit better. Maybe it would have helped him in the end. {Rick laughing} But I would just say my passion for this started, obviously the whole book is in the title there. Right? We’re comparing the two greatest miracles from all of human history: the coming forth of the Book of Mormon and overlaying that with the historical evidence for the resurrection of Christ. That ties to Hugh Hefner, because there was a time when Hugh was being interviewed on, of all things, that exact topic. And he basically said, well, I hope it’s true. I would hope it’s true. Because if Christ really rose from the dead, that would open up a marvelous set of possibilities. But he was implying in that interview that there wasn’t any actual evidence. I read that in context, from a book. I believe the interview at that time was Lee Strobel.
GT 02:42 Okay.
Josh 02:42 He’s a researcher on the Resurrection. Lee was basically using that interview that he did to demonstrate that Hugh, while he had all this ability to look at the evidence that had already been done, his argument was, well, he really hadn’t looked into the details. When I saw that, it just jumped out at me, because the same can be said for those that are the actual researchers, whom I adore and passionately follow. People like Professor Gary Habermas at Liberty University, William Lane Craig and others, that defend the resurrection. They’ve staked their claims and their career, on the fact that Jesus rose from the dead, and they lay out their historical boundaries as to why that’s the case. They go, and they do debates, and they print their books, and they do all this stuff. And then when it comes to other miracles, and they encourage that. They say, oh. They’ll literally write in some of their text. “Well, people could use this same criteria to evaluate other miracles.” But when it comes to the Book of Mormon, they weren’t willing to fill that gap, would be my point, my argument. So just like Hugh Hefner wasn’t willing to take the step on the evidence for the historical resurrection of Christ, I would argue, so many people that believe in the historical resurrection of Jesus haven’t taken the step to look at the evidence that’s there, for the set of golden plates, for the empty hole in the ground in New York, and for the miraculous coming forth of the Book of Mormon, the greatest miracle of our era.
GT 04:19 All right, so for some of the young people, they might not know who Hugh Hefner is. The infamous Hugh Hefner.
Josh 04:25 Good for them!
GT 04:28 Do you want to share who he is?
Josh 04:30 I’m not an expert there. {both laughing} No, he was the founder of Playboy.
GT 04:33 Playboy magazine, yeah, it’s definitely not a church-approved magazine, we’ll say it that way.
Josh 04:39 But it is a church approved book over there.
GT 04:41 This is a Church of Jesus Christ approved book. And in fact, you’re going to be heading tomorrow to BYU to hang out with the people there.
Josh 04:49 Yeah.
GT 04:49 Can you tell us a little bit more about that?
Josh 04:50 Well, it’s a great opportunity. Through the book and through some of the research, it’s opened up some doors that I never would have expected to be honest, and I’m grateful. And there’s a professor there. I’ve built relationships with a few professors over at Brigham Young University. One of them is in the Religious Studies Department, Professor Casey Griffiths.
GT 05:12 [I] love Casey. Casey’s awesome.
Josh 05:13 He is great. He does so much behind the camera and in front of the students for the welfare of the Restoration and the Book of Mormon, and I appreciate Casey a lot.
GT 05:22 Yeah.
Josh 05:23 He extended an invite. And so we’re going to go, we’re going to talk with some of their Interfaith Forum Club students, and also be in the classroom a little bit and talk to faculty and share a little bit about my church, share a little bit about my book and the research. I appreciate the chance. It’s going to be a real privilege.
GT 05:43 Well, and I love it. I know Casey has also spoken with Dr. Kyle Beshears. He’s a Baptist minister, and he’s done some interfaith work at BYU, as well. And so, I love Kyle, because even though he’s not a believer, he’s very open. I love, also, what Casey’s doing with this interfaith work. It seems like, especially in the LDS Church, we’ve been a little bit stand-offish, and we haven’t done a lot of interfaith work. I think Casey’s doing a lot to rebuild some of those relationships with Community of Christ, with your church, and a lot of other ones in Independence, [Missouri] as well.
Josh 05:43 Well, and for us, from our background, I mean, we’re just as guilty if not more guilty, because we really came from a background where when the church got started through William Bickerton, and through some of that background, which, I don’t know if we’re going to get into that today or not.
GT 06:36 Oh, we will!
Josh 06:36 Yeah. Okay. Fair enough. But we were very poor, very impoverished, I mean, rubbing nickels and dimes together to build church buildings in very simple, very plain terms. Coal miners, loggers, farmers, that’s the ground roots of us in the 1800s. So, as far as our going with interfaith dialogue–now, mind you, we are an international church. We’re in almost 25 countries right now. We do have 30,000 members around the world and are growing. Cuba opened up a couple years ago.
GT 07:09 30,000? I didn’t know it was that big.
Josh 07:10 Yeah, we’re crossing those thresholds. And really, in my lifetime, we’ve pretty much doubled every 10 years, which, so you can imagine, in my lifetime, what size we were when I was born in the 80s, then, to where we are today. Now, I’m not going to say we’re going to double necessarily in the next 10 years, but let’s go to Zion, let’s do it. So, maybe even beyond that expectation.
GT 07:32 Aren’t you in Zion right now? {Rick chuckling} Just kidding.
Josh 07:34 No, we want to build it brick by brick. {Rick laughing} Yeah. We want the lion and the lamb, Brother, we’re going for that goal.
GT 07:41 Well, for those of you–it’s probably been at least five years since I talked to Daniel Stone. And so if you want to really get a good history of William Bickerton, specifically–would you–One of the things that Daniel told me, in fact, the subtitle of his book was The Forgotten Prophet, because you guys don’t really emphasize him very much in your church, do you?
Josh 08:02 Well, we do a lot.
GT 08:04 Oh, you do?
Josh 08:04 Yeah. Our brother, Paul Palmieri, used to preach in Isaiah and reference William Bickerton from the pulpit of our conferences. William Bickerton is paramount for us as a church. His revelation, some of his early experiences are all throughout the church and taught around the world. So, William Bickerton is quintessential, too, and don’t get me wrong. The foundation of our church is Jesus Christ.
GT 08:33 Right.
Josh 08:34 He’s the cornerstone, and when we go down– but historically, we’re not here without William Bickerton. There’s no doubt.
GT 08:42 Okay.
Josh 08:42 After Sidney Rigdon came to Pittsburgh, and as that organization really never took hold, his health really wasn’t very strong. He ended up moving away with family and this little group that’s left, that’s holding on to the Bible and Book of Mormon, if it wasn’t for William Bickerton, there’s zero chance I’m here talking to you today.
GT 09:04 Well, very good. Because I was under the impression, well, I will say, if you really want to deep dive, see my Daniel Stone interview.
Josh 09:12 Absolutely.
GT 09:12 But I do want to do a little thumbnail sketch of how your church started. So, obviously, you, like me, accept Joseph Smith as a prophet. And then he, of course, died in 1844. Can you talk about what happened between 1844 and, I believe, it was 1852?
Josh 09:34 Yes. So for that to take place, can I take a half a step back?
GT 09:38 Sure.
Josh 09:38 Because I think sometimes the importance of Rigdon in the organization, in the 1830s, can get lost a little bit to history. Just like you were mentioning, maybe we could do more promoting William Bickerton, which I would say yea and amen to.
GT 09:52 Okay.
Josh 09:53 I would also say, maybe Sidney Rigdon’s relevance within the Restoration has not had been recognized over time as much as it could be or should be.
GT 10:03 Right.
Josh 10:04 And while we don’t follow every teaching of his, there’s no question about his historical impact on the church. If Oliver Cowdery isn’t going west, stopping in Kirtland, connecting with a Pratt brother, who happened to know Rigdon, and all of a sudden they’re handing him a Book of Mormon, on their way out to, at the time, what they would call Indian Territory, when they were going to the [area,] basically, where the indigenous people had been pushed to at that point, in Kansas and some of those states. If they hadn’t done that push and stopped in Kirtland and handed out Books of Mormon, does the church move west from New York? Does it grow from a fledgling group of faithful believers and eyewitnesses from Palmyra? I don’t know.
GT 10:51 Yeah, Steve Shields has actually referred to, he thinks it should be called the Smith-Rigdon movement because of how important Sidney Rigdon was.
Josh 10:58 How impactful he really was, yeah; when Sidney gets converted, at that point, he reads the Book of Mormon through, the reading of the Book of Mormon is what he claimed converted him into the movement. He’s baptized, and that forever changes the face of the Church. And you could argue for better or for worse, even if you wanted it to, but that forever changes the face of the Church. Shortly after that, the Church migrates all the way to Kirtland, because his congregations followed, and that’s congregations, plural, at that point. And so, from that point on, he, eventually is a counselor in the presidency, alongside Joseph Smith, right alongside Hyrum, and is a leader in the Church. Now, he suffers for the movement. He’s tarred and feathered alongside Joseph. Joseph sees him completely knocked out, before Joseph gets pretty much knocked out, too, during that tar and feathering that goes on. Sidney is in Liberty Jail, and it seems like he gets out of Liberty Jail, because they don’t think he’s even going to live very long because of what he had suffered there.
GT 11:39 Right.
Josh 11:40 So, he did a lot and endured a lot for the cause of Christ in that time, I would say. In 1834, to get to where you want to go here, in 1834, Joseph lays hands on him. When he does, he prays, and he basically institutes the fact that if Joseph was ever absent, Sidney should lead the church. And my argument, lovingly and respectfully would be, you don’t get much more absent than dead. Even if you would go into the deeds of the early church properties, the names that are on the deeds are two names: Joseph and Sidney. I don’t even know if Sidney realized that, but he probably could have made a claim on quite a few of the properties, even after he went east. He never did. When Joseph dies, he’s the only surviving member of the presidency at the time. And so we follow our historical line from the angel that flew through the midst of heaven, bearing the everlasting gospel, restoring the Church of Christ back upon the earth. We follow that line of priesthood directly from the angel to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery, directly to Sidney Rigdon directly to William Bickerton, to who we are and where we are today. Sidney, at the death of Joseph Smith, eventually brings a small group of believers east to Pennsylvania, where at the time he was running as vice-presidential candidate.
GT 13:10 Yeah.
Josh 13:46 That’s why he was out of the state, essentially.
GT 13:48 Yeah, and Joseph had called him on a mission, because his home state–he is from [the] Pittsburgh area anyway.
Josh 13:54 Correct. Yeah, absolutely. He was kind of, I think he met his wife in the Pittsburgh area.
GT 13:59 Yeah, I think so. Then, I’m trying to remember. Did you talk about this, the Rigdon-Spalding theory in your book? I can’t remember. It’s been so long since I read it.
Josh 14:11 I just had a little bit on alternate theories and why some of that broke down.
GT 14:17 Yeah, I thought you did.
Josh 14:17 There were some pieces of that, yeah.
GT 14:21 So then, of course, Sidney is in Pittsburgh, running for vice president. The reason why is because if the President and the Vice President are from the same state, you lose some electoral college votes or something. I’m not a politician, or a politics expert, but something along those lines.
Josh 14:38 I love the hopeful thought that they were going to get electoral votes. {both laughing}
GT 14:44 And so Joseph sent Sidney Rigdon on a mission to Pittsburgh to reestablish residency there. So that, of course, they would become president and vice president of the United States…
Josh 14:55 Yeah.
GT 14:56 …when Joseph was killed.
Josh 14:57 A wild thought at the time. Right? I mean, So, Joseph’s killed, he [Sidney] comes back to the church in Nauvoo, which was actually an amazing thing to think about. The church In Nauvoo almost didn’t know Rigdon hardly at all. He was very ill during his time in Nauvoo. So, he wasn’t prominent on any stage or platform very much. And then the overwhelming majority of church converts were converts from the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, from their missionary tours in England. Because of that, they did not know the Church in Kirtland and the sufferings there. They didn’t know the church in Far West, not directly. I mean, I’m sure they heard of things, but they had not seen that prominent leader in that role, because the overwhelming majority in Nauvoo is, actually, pretty brand-new English converts. There were others as well.
GT 15:49 Right.
Josh 15:50 But the percentages weighed heavily on people that only knew the missionaries that converted them. And that would have been the Twelve, which is who a majority of them ended up following, through Brigham Young. Then Sidney brought a small group east.
GT 16:02 Okay, so yeah. So, they get to Nauvoo and Sidney wanted to become the, “guardian of the church.” And Brigham Young came and there was that big meeting.
Josh 16:13 Yeah.
GT 16:13 You can watch other interviews about that. I don’t want to spend too much time there. Essentially, Brigham Young and Sidney Rigdon had a big dispute over who’s going to lead. The people voted. The majority of the people voted for Brigham Young.
Josh 16:26 Right.
GT 16:27 And so Brigham and Sidney excommunicated each other. {Rick chuckling}
Josh 16:31 That seems to be a common theme, it happens a few times over the years. {both laughing}
GT 16:36 So, Sidney heads back to Pittsburgh.
Josh 16:38 Yeah.
GT 16:39 And starts his own church. Do you remember what the name of that church is?
Josh 16:42 I don’t remember exactly.
GT 16:45 See, because, actually I think he started two different churches. And the one that I remember is The Church of Jesus Christ of the Children of Zion. I believe John Hamer told me that was the second church.
Josh 16:55 Could be, John would know. John would definitely know.
GT 16:58 Yeah, but at any rate, he baptized William Bickerton. And can you talk about Sidney’s influence on William Bickerton?
Josh 17:08 Well, William Bickerton comes into the church, falls in love with the Book of Mormon.
GT 17:13 He was a coal miner, by the way.
Josh 17:15 He was, exactly. This was our MO [modus operandi] at the time. You were either English or Italian, coming into the Western Pittsburgh area at the time. There were a lot of immigrants coming in. He holds on to these barebones truths and of the simplicity, the gospel of the Bible and Book of Mormon. Early on, when they were trying to organize, Rigdon wanted to build Zion. That was his desire.
GT 17:44 He was all about consecration, especially.
Josh 17:47 Yeah, and that didn’t happen. It didn’t go that way. And the group just fizzled. It really did not get a good footing. So, you were essentially left with a small congregation and William Bickerton. And William Bickerton’s experience was he was caught up before the Lord, it says on the top of mountain. It says he didn’t even have much footing anywhere. He was all alone, on the top of the mountain, and he saw this great chasm. And the Lord commanded him to go forward preaching his gospel. He even says in his writings, “I moved in the spirit of fear, in reverential fear.” And he began to preach on the street corners. I mean, he began to preach and uphold that little congregation. Eventually, little by little it grew, and hard to imagine…
GT 18:43 It’s still around.
Josh 18:45 It’s still around, and I would argue, in many places, absolutely thriving.
GT 18:50 Yeah, I will add just a little tidbit here. Apparently, he did join Brigham Young for about nine months.
Josh 18:57 No, let’s do this. This is great.
GT 18:59 Yeah. And so tell us about that.
Josh 19:00 Yeah. So what happened was, missionaries from Iowa, there was–the primary headquarters, obviously, at that point was going on in Utah. But there was a second headquarters in Iowa and missionaries were coming out from there. There was definitely an effort from Brigham Young to gather all the scattered of the Restoration. That was a desire of his. They came to Pittsburgh. They met with William Bickerton. And William Bickerton asked about polygamy, because he had learned through Sidney Rigdon that the Western group was practicing polygamy. Our position has always been out of Jacob, [chapter] two, that the Book of Mormon makes it pretty clear, whether you’re king Noah or whether you’re some of the early Nephites. In Jacob, chapter two, polygamy is not what the Lord wants, that it’s a sin. Okay, that’s our position. Always has been. And the missionaries in Iowa said, “No, we don’t we don’t practice polygamy. And William said, if that’s the case, okay. So they baptized him and the congregation. Then shortly after that, I forget the exact timing, Daniel would know.
GT 20:15 1852.
Josh 20:16 Yeah. So the proclamation goes out. Shortly afterwards, the public proclamation of polygamy goes out. Our little group says, “We were baptized under false pretense.” Again, formally excommunicating all of the West, anybody that’s practicing that and we will never stand for polygamy.
GT 20:39 That’s when he had this vision with the chasm.
Josh 20:42 Exactly. You got it dead on right.
GT 20:4 And so that led to starting–now, I’m trying to remember. It’s been a while since I’ve talked to Daniel, was it the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints when he reorganized it in 1852? Do you remember?
Josh 20:58 You know, I’m not an expert on the titles of when I even know some of the changes that happened in the 30s.
GT 20:58 Go watch my Daniel Stone interview, he talks about it.
Josh 21:02 But don’t quiz me, I can’t ring the Jeopardy bell on when it was and exact timing, but we are incorporated today as the Church of Jesus Christ.
GT 21:18 Okay.
Josh 21:18 So, for us, that’s straight out of 3rd Nephi.
GT 21:22 Okay.
Josh 21:22 When we read that text, the Lord tells them what we should name his church after, and that we should name the church after his name. Because we’re such strong believers in the Book of Mormon, that’s the impact of how we name our church today.
{End of Part 1}
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