I asked Janice Allred how she views the LDS Church today, and if she had advice for LDS Church Leaders. How should ward members treat the excommunicated? We share a mini-episode of Kurt Francom’s “Leading Saints” podcast on how members should reach out to excommunicated members. Check out our conversation…
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Gospel Tangents
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Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission
Janice’s View of Today’s Church
Interview
GT 00:35 Do you have any thoughts on the Church today? Has it changed in any way closer to any of your positions that you got in trouble for?
Janice 00:50 No, I don’t think so. I mean, there there are definitely changes, which we can look at and say these are for the good. And some of those have to do with womens position in the Church. But I still say that there is this authoritarianism, and this orthodoxy, shall we say, in terms of beliefs. So yes, many changes have been made. However, do I think the Church is closer to being the true Church of Christ? No.
GT 01:25 Is the Church in apostasy?
Janice 01:27 The Church is always in apostasy. {both laughing} That was one of the things I said in my paper that got me in trouble. Anyone who has read the scriptures knows that the Church always goes into apostasy. That doesn’t mean every person who is in the Church is in apostasy. But yeah, I can see definite signs that the Church, as a whole, is in apostasy. And one of them is that the leaders of the church require the members to say that they’re prophets, seers and revelators, when they clearly are not.
GT 02:04 You know, I always like to look at the Community of Christ. And even there’s a Remnant Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in Independence. I just interviewed their prophet a few weeks ago. Terry Patience is his name. They have, hopefully I have my numbers, right, 161 revelations. The Community of Christ has 156 if I have that, right. Hopefully I have that right. And we’re stuck at 138.
Janice 02:32 I know. So that’s interesting. The Community of Christ is an interesting group. One of the reasons I would not go to them is they have moved away from regarding Joseph as a prophet, and the First Vision and the Book of Mormon. They’ve moved away from all of that, and have positioned themselves more in to mainstream Protestantism, which is, they have many good things. But to me, that’s one reason why I wouldn’t be interested in joining them.
GT 03:07 So would you view them, because I’m trying to remember, was it President [Grant] McMurray wanted to make them a prophetic people. And they’ve had, since the 1990s, probably at least a dozen revelations. The Remnant Church, it’s funny because they think that the RLDS Church went into apostasy back after Israel Smith. I think he was the last Prophet. They didn’t like [W.] Wallace or the next Wallace [B] especially Wally B. who allowed women to hold the priesthood.
Janice 03:47 I would guess that that’s one of their main disagreements with them. But, I don’t think it’s their main one. I think moving away from Joseph as a prophet is, as well.
GT 03:57 Definitely, but they threw out everything from Israel forward. And then they’ve added a whole bunch more revelations. Recently, Terry Patience has added, I think he said five, if I remember right. And they have a room in their headquarters that he wanted as a School of the Prophets, and it’s kind of Kirtland looking. Due to the structure of the building, they couldn’t put pulpits at both ends. So, they have them in the front, just because of the way the layout was. But it was interesting to me. The fundamentalists, Lindsay Hansen Park jokes. “You throw a rock and you’re going to hit a prophet,” especially down in Short Creek. And we’re really, we haven’t had anything since, really, 1978. Right?
Janice 04:00 Yeah.
GT 04:03 Would you view some of these others as prophetic?
Janice 04:21 I would have to look at the prophecies and see. I couldn’t say. It’s possible, but I don’t know.
GT 05:07 I know the Community of Christ, you think they’ve moved too much away from Joseph.
Janice 05:10 Right, right.
GT 05:13 Well, I know, women and priesthood is a big deal with Margaret and Maxine.
Janice 05:20 It is for me, too.
GT 05:21 And you too. The Community of Christ does ordain women.
Janice 05:25 That’s right.
GT 05:26 Is that a good move?
Janice 05:27 I think it’s a good move. But to me, moving away from the revelations of Joseph is not a good move. And for me, giving women the priesthood needs to be done firmly in the context of what is priesthood through the revelations. So, I think this is true for Margaret, too. From the beginning, Margaret did a lot of really foundational work on women and the priesthood. And she did it through the teachings of Joseph Smith and the early temple endowments. That was her basis for what she did. Both she and Paul use scriptural texts as foundation for their teachings. And this is true for me, too. It’s never been we think women should have the priesthood because we believe in equality. It’s always been let’s look at the scriptures. Let’s look at the revelations and see if there is a foundation for this in the scriptures. And yes, there is. And that’s the wonderful thing. But I don’t know enough about the Community of Christ, and why they did it, to say whether they did it through revelation and understanding of the nature of priesthood, or whether they just felt that this was a good move to make, because it gives equality. And I agree with that. But still, to me, there needs to be priesthood. Priesthood power comes from God, and you need to have a clear foundation.
GT 05:49 So you wouldn’t recognize them as prophets, seers and revelators, necessarily.
Janice 07:10 Not necessarily. It’s very possible that they have true revelations. That’s possible. I don’t know without looking at them. But I will say this about the LDS Church, which to me is very important. One thing that we have done, which I think has kept us closer to God, and receiving God’s blessings, we continue to teach that Joseph Smith was a prophet. We continue to accept the Book of Mormon as scripture with foundation in history. We continue to accept the revelations of the Doctrine and Covenants as coming from God, and The Pearl of Great Price as scripture. To me, that is really, really important. And that’s why I stay. And that’s why I think the Church continues to be blessed.
Why Janice Stays
Interview
GT 07:58 You know, at Sunstone there is, every year they have a “Why I Stay.” Have you ever given one of those?
Janice 08:04 No, because they they’ve never asked me. Maybe they don’t think I stayed. I don’t know.
GT 08:08 Oh, Lindsay! I have a suggestion! {laughing} It’s still amazing to me. You and Lavina, and Margaret and Paul, too, they don’t go to church. But you and Lavina just amaze me that you continue to go to church every week, for 30 years!
Janice 08:34 That’s right.
GT 08:36 How? How do you do that? Why do YOU stay?
Janice 08:41 That’s really interesting. After I was excommunicated, I stayed because I wanted to.
GT 08:48 This is your home.
Janice 08:50 I stayed because I wanted to. And then as time goes on, it was very difficult at first, but it got better. I’m accepted in my ward now. Most people don’t know that I am excommunicated.
GT 09:01 Oh.
Janice 09:01 How would they know? It’s not like…
GT 09:06 They’ve moved in and don’t know.
Janice 09:07 If you ask people about the September Six, they’ve never heard of it. They don’t know. I few people would.
GT 09:12 The older people know.
Janice 09:09 The older people, the ones who have been [in the ward], they know.
GT 09:16 But they treat you pretty well, too.
Janice 09:18 Oh, yeah. I’m treated fine.
GT 09:20 I asked you. Do you have ministering sisters that come?
Janice 09:23 So, interesting. I always said to the bishop. “Yes, I will accept. Of course.” But I didn’t have any for a long time.
GT 09:32 Oh, yeah.
Janice 09:33 No one came. Do I know why? No, I don’t know why.
GT 09:36 You probably have a good idea.
Janice 09:40 Well, it’s interesting because the bishops, again, they never followed the handbook according to what they were required to do for an excommunicated person who attends church.
GT 09:51 Is that in the handbook? {laughing}
Janice 09:52 Yes.
GT 09:53 Oh, it is?
Janice 09:54 They are supposed to meet with them regularly. Especially meet with their spouse and children.
GT 10:00 Oh, that’s right. I remember you writing about that.
Janice 10:02 They didn’t. Our bishops didn’t do that. Bishop Hammond, of course, who excommunicated me, they’re in for five years. He met with me once or twice, but he did not follow through. It was too painful for him. And I don’t blame him. I mean, I don’t hold it against them. But it’s clear that they have neglected their duty. So, one of the bishops did meet with me a couple of times and attempted to, bring me to an…
GT 10:34 Help you to repent?
Janice 10:35 Yes, that’s it. {both chuckling} But the last three or four have never even asked to talk to me. They’re friendly. They say hello.
GT 10:46 Do I need to send a transcript of this interview to them?
Janice 10:48 That’s okay. {Rick laughing) No, I understand why they don’t. But they haven’t done that. It was maybe five or six years ago, the Relief Society President found a visiting teacher for me, who is my ward choir director and my friend.
GT 11:05 Oh, nice.
Janice 11:06 So she comes by herself. And we meet together about once a month and talk for about two hours.
GT 11:15 Is this like a home teaching or ministering thing here?
Janice 11:19 What I say is, they found the person that did not want to visit anybody, to go to the person nobody wanted to visit. {both laughing} I’m way too fine. I don’t know if that’s true or not. But she’s a wonderful person and a lovely friend. And we have a really good relationship. I don’t know if they’ve ever tried. She doesn’t have a partner. {Rick chuckling} Which is fine, because we don’t want to impede the flow of our conversation. We have visiting [teachers.] They call them ministers now. My husband is a member. We have home teachers. They come regularly.
GT 12:01 Okay. So the home teachers, did they ever stop?
Janice 12:05 No, they always came. And a couple of them made efforts to proselytize me, but not too much. {chuckling} Most everyone has forgotten it now. It doesn’t come up very often, except a few years ago. This was maybe 10 years ago. I had a friend in the ward. She was much younger than I and we became close friends. And she was in the ward nursery. And she asked me to substitute for her. And so, I thought, “Oh, am I allowed to do this?” I thought, “It’s okay.” So, I did it once. And then she asked me again, and I thought, “Okay, I’ve got to be careful about this. I don’t want to…” So I said, I told her…
GT 12:54 That you were excommunicated?
Janice 12:55 Yeah. And it was so it was so crushing to her. But I said, “We’ve got to ask the bishop if it’s okay”. He said, “No.”
GT 13:04 Oh, really?
Janice 13:05 I was not allowed to substitute.
GT 13:07 You were infecting the little two-year-olds?
Janice 13:08 I was not allowed to substitute in the nursery.
GT 13:10 Wow!
Janice 13:13 I get along very well with small children. I love them very much. And they respond to that. They respond to somebody who is quiet and listens to them and cares about them. Now, to me that was totally shocking. That was hard. Because, she respected me and thought of me as a good person, and a faithful Church member who knows the scriptures really well. So that was hard for us. So, I don’t tell people. But if it comes up, if somebody asked me, of course, I’ll tell them. I’ll be honest.
GT 13:54 Wow.
Advice for Church Leaders
Interview
GT 13:55 Well, not that they’ll listen, but do you have any advice for Church leaders?
Janice 14:03 The first, the most important thing I would say is, they need to be honest and truthful. They need to say very clearly, “You think of us as prophets, seers, and revelators who are in regular contact with Christ, who receive revelations. We are not. We are your leaders. We are doing our best.” We need to change that. The authoritarianism in the Church is still very serious. And that would be my first advice is, be honest. Say what’s really true about you and your relationship to God. Be honest about what inspirations, everyone has inspirations. I’m not going to say they don’t have those. But if you have a revelation—so I would define a revelation as an objective experience, in which you clearly see a person, a divine or angelic person, or hear clearly the voice of a divine or angelic person who speaks to you and says something, or you see something. That’s a revelation. We all have inspiration from God in the Holy Spirit. That’s important. But a revelation has a special place in doctrine. And if they have revelations they need to—what’s the purpose of having a revelation? Joseph was very clear on this. If you have a revelation from God, which is for the people, you tell how you got it. You give the words, and then you give it to the people. And that’s what they should do, if they have them. I don’t see any evidence that they have revelations. They may have inspiration. That’s between them and God, but the revelations, if they’re called of God, they should be given to the people. That’s my view.
GT 16:03 All right. I want to close on one last question. I have a friend, Kurt Francom. He has a podcast called Leading Saints. And one of the things that he does, is he talks about every calling in the Church. How can you be a better Bishop, Relief Society President, Young Women’s, Young Men’s? He neglects family history. I had to invite myself on just to have him talk about family history. But one of the things, I mean, he talks about drug use, sexual immorality, that kind of a thing. How do we minister those people? I’m pretty sure that it hasn’t come up. How should you minister to somebody who’s excommunicated? So, in this little mini episode of Leading Saints, what would you say, if Kurt was here? What would you say to him and his audience? How can we better minister to someone in your situation?
Janice 17:06 That’s a really good question. I’ve actually thought about it. And one of the reasons why I forgive and excuse my Church leaders is, one of the purposes of this care for and kindness to the excommunicated person who comes to church, is the idea that you are helping them to repent so they can come back into the Church. Clearly, that’s not going to be the case with me. I’m not going to come back into the Church for the reasons that I have given.
GT 17:33 You come to church. You’re just not baptized.
Janice 17:36 Exactly. So what could they do for me? I think one thing that would be really one thing, of course, is I’m allowed to speak, make comments in Sunday school and Relief Society. That’s very good. I try to say only things that will be helpful to people. And I love the scriptures. So, I am very happy to do interpretations of scriptures if the Sunday School teachers don’t get too far afield, which they often do. So that’s a good question. One thing would be very important to me. And this may not be true for all people. But the bishop could say, “You’re allowed to take the sacrament.”
GT 18:21 Oh.
Janice 18:23 A bishop would have that authority, I think. And if the bishop could, this is my situation. Now for somebody who is trying to get back into the Church, it might be different.
GT 18:38 Do you have any advice for maybe the excommunicated member who doesn’t come? How could people minister to that person?
Janice 18:51 It would be different for Church leaders and ward members. Ward members should continue in friendship. If the excommunicated person is given, I don’t know if they would be given ministers or sisters. I don’t know.
GT 19:10 Well, you have minister. So, apparently, it’s okay.
Janice 19:13 I do. It’s possible. Yes. So, sometimes I’m on the roll of the Relief Society, but I’m not now. So I have no idea why I’m sometimes on and sometimes not.
GT 19:26 Probably, I doubt you’re on the official Church roster. They’d probably have to add you.
Janice 19:32 It’s very interesting, because like I said, an excommunicated person is not a non-member. They keep track of you. You can’t just get baptized, for instance, you have to be rebaptized. So yeah, even though you’re officially off the Church records, you’re still there.
GT 19:52 Yeah.
Janice 19:52 You’re still an excommunicated non-member, excommunicated person, whatever you want to call it. So really, I think the circumstances are going to be very different for different people. The best thing is to be kind and pray. Follow the Spirit, what the Spirit tells you to do. In the Spirit, pray and follow the Spirit in the spirit of humility. Because it may not be what you think. That person may not need what you think they need. That’s what I would say.
GT 20:30 Well, great. Did we miss anything? Is there anything we missed?
Janice 20:34 We probably missed many things. But that’s fine. We’ve talked about many things.
GT 20:41 All right, well should we change the name to the September Eight, to add you and Margaret in there?
Janice 20:46 I’m happy to join the September Six, if they’re happy to have me. {both laughing}
GT 20:50 Well, let’s see, Michael Quinn’s gone. So one of you can substitute for him, I guess.
Janice 20:57 Yes.
GT 20:59 Or maybe we should just call it the September Seven and a half.
Janice 21:05 Eight is fine. Michael is still a member, [of the September 6,] even though he’s passed on? That’s going to happen to all of us. Isn’t it?
GT 21:11 Yep. All right. Well, Janice Allred, thank you so much for your graciousness, and your wonderful time here on Gospel Tangents. I really appreciate it.
Janice 21:21 Thank you. I’ve enjoyed being here and talking with you.
GT 21:25 Well, thanks.
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Gospel Tangents
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Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission
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