What would a Protestant think of Strangite, Bickertonite, and Community of Christ Churches? David Boice is host of 52 Churches in 52 Weeks and shares his thoughts. He also discusses presenting to Restorationists at the John Whitmer Historical Association in Texas. Check out our conversation…
Strangite, Bickertonite, JWHA Reactions
Interview
David 00:25 The next thing I know, Steve Pynakker reaches out to me from Mormon Book Reviews.
GT 00:31 Steve’s good at networking.
David 00:33 Yeah. He had watched a few of my videos and he saw my video at a Seventh Day Adventist Church, because I was telling about my history of trying to do a Seventh Day Adventist Church in my first 52, and I showed up on a Sunday.
GT 00:51 Uh oh.
David 00:52 But Seventh Day Adventists are on Saturday.
GT 00:53 Right.
David 00:54 I didn’t know that, so I showed up to this Seventh Day Adventist Church on a Sunday, because I didn’t do enough research.
GT 01:15 Right. Purposely.
David 01:15 Steve found that hilarious and he thought, “I need to get this guy to do an interview.” My friendship with Steve grew and he started talking to me about there were other Book of Mormon believing churches. And I’m like, there’s more?
GT 01:20 Now had Steve started his channel yet?
David 01:24 Yes.
GT 01:25 Okay.
David 01:25 I think he was maybe about a year in with his channel.
GT 01:29 I didn’t think he’d gone back that far. But wow. I thought he said three years. I guess that was just 2020. Okay.
David 01:36 Yeah. So, he let me know about the Community of Christ. He told me about this, I can’t remember the exact term, this king of Beaver Island.
GT 01:47 Oh, Strangites.
David 01:48 Yeah. Because he knew I was in Wisconsin, [Steve said,] “You know, the Strangites are in Wisconsin.” I had no clue who James Strang was.
GT 01:55 Oh, I thought he was going to tell you about the Bickertonites, but yeah, Strang makes more sense.
David 01:59 He told me about the Bickertonites too. Because that was one that he let me know [about] as well.
GT 02:03 He attends that church quite often. In fact, he even took me in Florida. It was my first time.
David 02:09 It’s his jam, a Pentecostal excitement for the worship, with the Songs of Zion and everything. So, I couldn’t keep doing it. I was trying to do different denominations, different churches. So, I wanted to try some different ones. We did Community of Christ with the Stone Church in Independence, Missouri. That was my first time, because as a Protestant, hearing about the Temple Lot for the first time, this blew my mind. It’s like, wait a minute. There’s all these different Book of Mormon believing churches staked around.
GT 02:49 So, let me tell you something.
David 02:51 I’m curious about that.
GT 02:52 I just watched that. And it said, Temple Lot, and so I was thinking it was the Hedrickites and the white church. But it was the Stone Church, which is Community of Christ.
David 03:01 Across the street.
GT 03:02 Exactly. I was like, “Oh, this was kind of mislabeled.”
David 03:06 I figured, okay, I’m going to visit the temple lot. But like with the Hedrickites, because I had one request to do the Hedrickite church, well, the Temple, the Community of Christ Temple. Obviously, I should do the Stone Church first. So that’s what I picked for that Sunday.
GT 03:26 Well, and that turned out to be controversial, too. Right?
David 03:29 A little bit, a little bit.
GT 03:31 Tell us more about that.
David 03:32 So, I was very excited to go into Community of Christ. And with the Stone Church, I had heard about Joseph Smith III. To me I really want to do a church service in the temple. But that’s not quite how it works. So, I’m like, well. I want to talk about the temple lot. I want to talk about that temple, but I need to do a church service. So, I walked into the Stone Church that day. And I don’t remember. I don’t think I could find the service time on the website. I could be wrong on that. But I remember seeing the sign.
GT 04:07 I think the website said it was closed, but it wasn’t closed.
David 04:11 So I think, with the website, it had mentioned like with all COVID stuff going on. It was a little out of date at that time. And I think I saw with the worship service, I think in the video, you’ll see like 10:10. So, I walked in at 10:10. And so they sing the hymn, and then all of a sudden it was a church meeting. And I’m going to sit down. And then it got a little bit controversial just because you could hear the Community of Christ struggles at that time, and they played a video with the President.
GT 04:42 Veazey?
David 04:42 Veazey, yep. And so, I walked out of that church, and it’s like, how do I do this video? Because I don’t want to be critical. But this is something that is happening in many churches where you’re seeing the struggles, especially in older churches, from the overhead, especially. I tried to be as sensitive as I could with the video. And at the same point, how do I handle this? Because I don’t want to be reporting anything negatively. But my channel wasn’t big enough where it’s maybe a few hundred people may see it tops. And then more and more people started to hear about it just because there were struggles within the Community of Christ, that day, that I heard.
GT 04:51 Financially.
David 04:54 Financially, from the overhead, and how do we keep the churches afloat, given the current economic conditions at this time?
GT 05:40 Especially right after COVID, where they’re really struggling for money, the whole economy.
David 05:44 Especially as church congregations get older and older, too, that’s another struggle. And it’s happening with so many different churches. But I remember, I played the recording of the hymn that they ended the service with. And I’m just like, this is one of the most beautiful things and that just, to me, I gained such an appreciation into the Latter-day Saint movement from that visit, because I went to the LDS Visitors Center, as well. I’m learning about pioneer history. One of the senior missionaries is showing me all around. I’m seeing the struggles with Community of Christ. I’m seeing everything that happened, all these landmarks all around the area, the temple lot, which as a Protestant, this is very different to me. There was so much there, and I gained such an appreciation from that visit. I just wasn’t expecting the video to do 30,000 views or wherever it’s at now…
GT 06:29 Very cool. So did you go back and visit the Church of Christ (Temple Lot,) the Hedrickite church?
David 06:52 No, I haven’t.
GT 06:52 Oh, you haven’t?
David 06:53 I haven’t.
GT 06:53 Oh, wow.
David 06:57 So maybe.
GT 06:59 We’ll have to go together.
David 06:57 We should! Give me a call. We’ll do it.
GT 07:01 Okay. I love going to Independence. We’ll make that happen. And I guess I will let people know tomorrow, we’re going to go where? You tell us.
David 07:11 Oh, we’re going to try to do St. George Temple open house.
GT 07:14 Yes. I’m looking forward to that too, because I haven’t seen it since the remodel.
David 07:18 I’m very curious to see what this looks like.
GT 07:20 Are you going to put a video out for that one, too?
David 07:22 I’m hoping so.
GT 07:23 Okay.
David 07:25 I did a video recently on the Bentonville, Arkansas temple. There was a lot of interest on YouTube with that video.
GT 07:32 That one blew up too, right?
David 07:34 Yeah, that one blew up as well, 100,000 views.
GT 07:38 Wow.
David 07:38 I don’t like, hey, look, all these views. I don’t care about that. It’s just here is just a different church. Here’s a different–
GT 07:46 Experience.
David 07:46 Yeah, here’s my experience. Here’s my recap of what I took away as a first-time visitor.
GT 07:53 Because I remember I watched that video, too. And you said, “We just walked through the temple, but there wasn’t anybody to ask questions about what this room did, or what was this room for?” And so, I’m like, oh, well, I can answer those questions.
David 08:09 They had people there. But I think as an introvert, it’s hard for me to just walk up to strangers and just be like, “Hey, I don’t know anything.”
GT 08:18 Well, and plus it’s very reverent, too. Because in temples we try to keep our voices down.
David 08:25 Right. I want to be respectful at the same time.
GT 08:28 But you can ask me anything.
David 08:29 Okay, good.
GT 08:30 I’ll try to answer.
David 08:31 I will question your ear off.
GT 08:33 Yeah, it’ll be fun. I might have to do a road trip video, we’ll see.
David 08:37 Yeah, there you go.
GT 08:39 Well, cool. All right. So, we haven’t talked about the Strangite church in Wisconsin. Tell us about that.
David 08:47 The Strangite Church was week 39.
David 08:49 And because my LDS Church visits were more popular than my other ones, same with the Community of Christ, suddenly, I started to call ahead of time when it came to Latter Day Saint churches. So that way, if the video got more views than usual, I’m going to give you guys a heads up, “I’d like to visit your church, but is it okay, if I do a video on it?” So, I reached out to Steve. Steve reached out to Kyle Beshears, Baptist preacher obviously on other Gospel Tangents episodes, I’ve had a chance to see Kyle’s interviews, as well.
GT 08:49 Okay.
GT 09:31 And I have a third one in the works.
David 09:35 Oh, that sounds good.
GT 09:35 Did you see his…oh you weren’t there. It was at the Book of Mormon conference, where he talked about translating James Strang’s Voree plates? Very, very interesting.
David 09:45 I think I may have seen some pictures on Facebook. That sounds interesting.
GT 09:49 It was a great presentation. But anyway, you talked to Kyle.
David 09:52 I talked to Kyle.
GT 09:53 The Baptist preacher.
David 09:54 The Baptist preacher, he specializes in Strangite history. And then he got me in contact with Bill Shepard and Bill is the Strangite historian…
GT 10:02 Right.
David 10:02 …with the church.
GT 10:03 Bill’s amazing! I love Bill.
David 10:05 Bill is fantastic. Yes.
GT 10:07 Anybody who meets Bill, loves Bill.
David 10:08 Yes. With this visit, I’m like, I need to listen to Gospel Tangents. I need to hear Rick interview Bill Shepard…
GT 10:16 Oh, wow.
David 10:16 …just so I can get a little bit of an idea. Because with a Strangite church, it’s a remnant church. I want to be very respectful as I’m visiting there.
GT 10:24 So, you found out they’re like Seventh Day Adventists.
David 10:27 Yes, because Steve and Kyle both made sure to let me know that services are on Saturday, not on a Sunday, like any other one. They were looking out for me to make sure I showed up on the right day.
GT 10:42 Yeah.
David 10:43 The Strangite Church though, fantastic people. And Bill—
GT 10:47 It’s on Mormon Road, too, isn’t it?
David 10:49 Well, Mormon Road is on the side.
GT 10:51 Okay.
David 10:51 So, you have Mormon Road. I don’t know how many miles, maybe three, four miles or so. And then there is a stop sign. And then there is another road. I can’t remember the name of it off the top of my head. But then the Strangite Church is right down the road from there.
GT 11:07 Okay, so tell us more about that. Because I have not attended a Strangite service and would love to know more about it.
David 11:14 Well, they were fantastic. I met two of the elders, and then Bill. It was very strange for me, because I’m listening to your interview with Bill. I park. I walk out my car and Bill is just walking right in. So, it worked out perfectly for the timing on that.
GT 11:33 Did he know you were coming?
David 11:34 Yes.
GT 11:34 Okay.
David 11:35 I had let him know ahead of time. And Bill was just fantastic.
GT 11:40 I know. I love Bill.
David 11:41 We sat down in their kitchen area.
GT 11:44 Okay.
David 11:45 And the very first thing walking in you notice is you have a picture of Joseph Smith, and then the picture of James Strang, the two prophets. And on the side then is, oh, what’s the letter called? I can’t think of it off the top of my head. The James Strang letter of…
GT 12:03 Appointment.
David 12:04 Appointment. Yes. Thank you.
GT 12:07 You’re talking to a Mormon history nerd.
David 12:08 I’m like, Rick, help me out. So, there’s this giant replica of that, and then we sat down, and Bill gets talking. And I really just appreciate the passion, and the fact that they let me in. And Bill just was finding more and more information to give to me.
GT 12:30 I know, that’s the way Bill is.
David 12:32 It was just so kind. And he gave me the JWHA journal or…
GT 12:41 He’s a former president.
David 12:42 Yep, 2008 to 2009. And I read the beginning of him talking with, I want to say Stanley Kimball, not the president Stanley Kimball, if I’m saying that right.
GT 12:53 Spencer Kimball was the president.
David 12:54 Yeah. So then with, I guess his ancestor was Heber C. Kimball. And I’m not the historian here, but just the way that Bill talked about his experience at the first JWHA, how he was welcomed, despite being a very different remnant background from everyone else, to just have radically different beliefs, but just to have that acceptance. And for them to return, the favor to me, just spoke volumes of the Strangites.
GT 13:25 Well, it also speaks to John Whitmer Conference, because I remember it was in Palmyra, right before COVID, I think it was 2019. And there were Bickertonites and Strangites, just all different restoration groups. We all got along great. It’s just a really friendly atmosphere. It’s in St. George next year. So, if you can come in September. I know that’s far away from you Midwest saints, but it’s close for me. {Rick laughing} Only four hours.
David 13:58 Hasn’t JWHA been in Utah before?
GT 14:01 This might be the first time.
David 14:02 Because I thought I saw something about that.
GT 14:04 Yeah, I think it might be the first time.
David 14:06 Okay.
GT 14:06 Yeah, so you’ve got to come out again.
David 14:09 I’m going to have to. Apparently, it’s going to be the 52nd JWHA, so that fits in with my 52 churches.
GT 14:15 Oh, there you go! {Rick chuckling}
David 14:16 If I’m going to do a second JWHA, it’s going to have to be that one.
GT 14:20 All right. We’re looking forward to it. All right, anything else on the Strangites as far as church services?
David 14:28 They invited me out for brunch after service.
GT 14:31 Yeah, they eat after, I’ve heard.
David 14:34 I’ve never been invited like that before.
GT 14:36 Yeah.
David 14:36 I just really appreciated the time there. And I still need to return Bill all the information he gave me. So Bill, I’m going to get it back to you. {Rick laughing} I knew I had to hold on to one of the books, just in case, for JWHA and I’m glad I did. It helped with our presentation.
GT 14:52 Oh, cool. Cool. We’ll have to talk about that too. All right. Any other restoration churches that you want to talk about?
David 15:01 I did also do the Church of Jesus Christ, the Bickertonites.
GT 15:04 Okay, are they in Wisconsin?
David 15:08 No, for that, the closest one to me was South Bend, Indiana.
GT 15:13 Oh.
David 15:14 I made a drive out there…
GT 15:14 Was that Josh Gehly? No, he lives in Pennsylvania.
David 15:17 He lives in Pennsylvania. But I have met Josh.
GT 15:19 Okay.
David 15:20 At a Book of Mormon Rally this past summer down in Independence.
GT 15:23 Okay. Joshua is super cool.
GT 15:24 “Josh, it’s been way too long. You need to come on Gospel Tangents.” {Rick laughing}
David 15:29 I would love to see that.
GT 15:31 Yeah, Josh, just so you know, is an evangelist in the Bickertonite Church. His father, I believe, is the President.
David 15:41 That’s what I’ve heard.
GT 15:46 I told Josh, he sent me this book about the Book of Mormon.[1] And he quoted Hugh Hefner. And I was like…
David 15:53 What?
GT 15:53 I don’t think anybody’s ever quoted Hugh Hefner and the Book of Mormon in the same book. This is unbelievable. {Both laughing}
David 16:01 Josh is great. I got to meet him. And he’s just such a gifted speaker. He speaks with so much conviction and so much passion.
GT 16:08 Yeah.
David 16:09 He’s such a blessing to listen to.
GT 16:10 I’ve talked to him a few times, but I don’t think we’ve met in person, yet. But yeah, he’s super cool. Anything else about the Bickertonites? Did they speak in tongues?
David 16:19 No speaking in tongues for the one I went to.
GT 16:21 They didn’t for me, either.
David 16:22 Yeah. We sang a number of hymns. But what I really appreciate, is the Songs of Zion. It’s a much more Pentecostal type of worship. But what I like about that is just, Arlene Buffington, the songwriter–there’s just so much–it feels divinely inspired when you listen to the hymns and the fact that it’s not technically organized. Like you can call out and request a song during the worship service.
GT 16:54 Hopefully the piano player can play it, right?
David 16:57 Yeah. Oh, the piano player, from my understanding, they can pretty much play anything.
GT 17:01 That’s what I noticed. Yeah, because I know with the LDS Church, one of the things they’ve tried to do is simplify, simplify, simplify to make it easy for anybody, even not experienced piano players, which is nice. But if you go to a Bickertonite service, and they’re playing just jazzy gospel music, it’s cool. It’s really fun.
David 17:26 Yeah.
GT 17:26 And so I think that’s pretty cool, too.
David 17:29 Yeah, I really enjoyed their church service. And they welcomed me in with open arms. And it gave me my Bickertonite version of the Book of Mormon. So, with that Book of Mormon, they have the red writing inside.
GT 17:44 Yeah, Red Letter.
David 17:45 Yeah. Anytime that Jesus speaks.
GT 17:47 Right.
GT 17:49 Our church has something against red letter Book of Mormons and Bibles.
David 17:53 I’m very curious, because I feel like, especially with a lot of the Bibles already having that, I’m just waiting for LDS…
GT 18:00 Well, I will say this, I spoke with, what’s his name? There was a guy. Why can I not remember his name, from North Carolina. I’m sorry, I can’t remember your name. He’s created a very, I’ll have to show it to you. It’s a gold leaf Book of Mormon, and he’s put red lettering in it. Why am I not remembering his name? Because originally, when he created his, [he] showed it to some general authorities, and they were the ones that said, “We will never do that. Because we don’t want to look like Protestants.” And so, why can I not remember his name? He sends me emails all the time
David 18:42 Yeah. It may never change.
GT 18:45 But he’s even got blue for angels that speak. And he’s put things into verse with poetry. And he’s done it, not only with the Book of Mormon, the Book of Isaiah, Book of Jasher, New Testament, Joseph Smith Translation. Ah, what’s the latest one? Is it a Torah that he’s working on now? I’s really well done. They’re expensive books. But he’s put an amazing amount of research. I’ve got to look up his name. This is driving me crazy. But yeah, we should get you one of those.
David 19:24 Yeah. Let’s do it.
GT 19:26 But the Bickertonites do the red letter Book of Mormon, just naturally. That’s interesting. I didn’t remember that.
David 19:31 Yeah. And the one that I went to, they would do after service church pictures.
GT 19:38 Oh, really?
David 19:39 Everyone that was part of the church service. They take kind of like a church family picture. After that, I’m like, why don’t more churches do that? Because it just brings everyone together. And I don’t know. I just really enjoyed that. They had me sitting up near the pulpit for their picture that day.
GT 20:00 Oh, you were in the picture too?
David 20:02 Yeah.
GT 20:02 Nice. That’s awesome.
David 20:04 Yeah, I really appreciate everyone there.
GT 20:08 That’s very cool. I’m looking it up here, David Hocking!
David 20:16 I’ll have to watch that episode.
GT 20:17 Yeah, it’s fun. All right, so go out and buy David Hocking’s scriptures. They are awesome. Are there any other restoration churches? Because I want to hit some others, too. But any other restoration churches that you’ve been to, before I let you move on?
David 20:32 The only one I would say that had significance was I got to meet Patrick McKay.
GT 20:36 Okay.
David 20:37 With the Book of Mormon rally.
GT 20:38 Right.
David 20:39 And that brought together a number of restoration branches.
GT 20:42 Right.
David 20:42 And that was really interesting just to see. And same thing with the JWHA, he was bringing everyone together from different Book of Mormon believing churches, and then sing[ing] different hymnal books from different restoration branches. And I just found that really, really beautiful.
GT 21:01 Yeah, I just saw Patrick a couple weeks ago. Yeah, he’s super cool. In fact, I might be having to go out to Iowa or Independence where they have their Book of Mormon Rally? Oh, you went. Didn’t you go to that?
David 21:14 Which one?
GT 21:14 The Book of Mormon Rally.
David 21:14 In Independence, yeah.
GT 21:15 Yeah.
David 21:15 It was fun the next morning, because we got to visit Patrick McKay’s home. So, me, Steve, and then members from Scriptures Central, like Casey Paul Griffiths, Scott Woodward, BYU professors, and then members from the Church of Jesus Christ. We sang Bickertonite hymns, and also Temple Lot members were there. And it was just, wow, and what I really appreciate about that visit was just the stories and the testimonies, and just how everyone’s personal relationship with Jesus Christ, how that helped their lives and how that helped their identity in Christ. And how they were using that to help out others, and it just was just a beautiful experience. And we’re like, Steve was like, don’t you need to go? It’s like, yeah, I need to go. But I want to keep hearing all these stories from so many different members of different restoration branches.
GT 22:15 Well, we’ll have to plan on going. What month is it?
David 22:19 Oh, boy, I want to say June. I could be wrong.
GT 22:21 Oh no, that’s a bad month for me. But okay. We’ll make it happen, anyway. Because you, also, your recent video was on the John Whitmer Historical Association. And I know you talked about the hymn session there. Can you share your experiences as a first-time attendee, and a speaker at John Whitmer Historical Association?
David 22:46 Oh, yeah. It’s very nerve wracking for me. But I think a big part of that was just because I am so new to Mormonism. And just with my background of all these different church visits, I make an interesting point of reference at this point. But at the same point, with so many different– like you with your presentation, and then with Tyler Anderson. He’s doing a presentation on the history of Latter-day Saints in space, and then talking with other attendees and other presenters, and just the level of research and what they bring to the table for everything out there, especially with pioneer history, it was just so interesting to me to see the passion, to see the interest. That was one thing that I found interesting was the importance of history, in Latter Day Saint history and to bring that back and forward into the faith, with the church right now. There’s just this connection from history, much more so, than other type of churches that I see in the United States.
GT 23:49 Well, you got in the history community. So, they probably hit you over the head with way too much history. {Chuckling}
David 23:56 Which I’m fine with, because I’m just so curious about it.
GT 23:59 That’s cool.
[1] The book is titled, “Witnessing Miracles” and can be purchased at https://amzn.to/43dzQiI
