Have the Sept Six & other intellectuals nfluenced LDS Church leaders with their arguments? Dr Sara Patterson weighs in on that question. If you’re not on our newsletter, sign up for free and I’ll send you a secret link to listen to the conclusion at https://gospeltangents.com/newsletter
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How Intellectuals Have Moved the Church
Interview
GT 00:31 So you, with your book, you’re way more expansive than just those six individuals who got “exed.”
Sara 00:39 I am, yeah.
GT 00:40 And I noticed the subtitle is The Struggle for the Soul of Mormonism.
Sara 00:45 [Yes.]
GT 00:46 Can you talk about, has anything happened with regards to the September Six, that has changed the leadership as far as moving more towards them?
Sara 01:03 Can you say the end part of that question again? Moving the church leaders more towards?
GT 01:11 Yeah, so for example, I know with Mark Hofmann, and I know we don’t want to include him in there. But it does seem to many, I would say, that there’s been a more openness to discussions of polygamy, and magic and seer stones. And so, it does seem like, even though Mark Hofmann was a terrible person, there has been first a closing and then an opening into church history. Do you see any of the same sort of things with feminism or these other issues, historicity of the Book of Mormon. Has it changed church leaders?
Sara 01:51 I see. So, have the ideas that were presented by the six become more mainstream?
GT 01:59 Mainstream.
Sara 01:59 Yeah. I think some of them have. And I think the historical arguments are probably the ones that have the most.
GT 02:10 As far as Church history.
Sara 02:12 Yeah, I think the role of the internet cannot be overplayed in that because the church couldn’t manage in the ways that it had prior to the internet, people’s access to documents and things like that. I think a lot of the history that Mike Quinn was excommunicated for is now history.
GT 02:40 Mainstream.
Sara 02:40 Yeah, that people accept. In that regard, I think there’s definitely been a greater acceptance of the history. And there’s also been, I think, from the Church hierarchy’s perspective, it doesn’t need to be about document access though that is certainly still at play. But we have our own historians who can tell these stories in ways that we think are still faith promoting. And so the Gospel Topics Essays represent that.
GT 03:24 One place where there hasn’t been a change, though, would you agree is scriptural historicity? We still believe in a literal Adam and Eve, Noah, Jonah. We still believe in a historical Book of Mormon. And so, anybody like Brent Metcalfe, or David Wright, that brings in historical criticism of the Bible, questions whether Noah was a real person, is that still a problem? We haven’t embraced Brent Metcalfe kind of an idea or David Wright.
Sara 03:57 I haven’t seen a lot of evidence of that, although there’s still people, I think, talking about that. But, yeah, I haven’t seen that a lot.
GT 04:06 Okay.
Sara 04:07 I think that there are still very firm boundaries. I think the historicity of the Scripture may be one. Women in the priesthood is certainly one. There hasn’t been movement on that. There hasn’t been a lot of movement on Heavenly Mother. I guess the question is how incremental we want to look at it? There’s certainly more discourse about Heavenly Parents. But Renlund gave a talk last year or the year before about Heavenly Mother that still very much said we don’t know much about her and engaging in speculation is really dangerous,”which was a restatement of what Hinckley had been saying in the 90s.
GT 05:00 A brushback pitch maybe?
Sara 05:02 Yeah, So I think there are certain topics that the Six we’re talking about that are still off limits.
GT 05:09 Okay.
Sara 05:09 Yeah.
GT 05:12 I know you also talked in your book about purity culture. That’s not something that we talk about in the LDS Church. Can you talk about purity culture from your perspective and how it relates to the September Six? Do we need to quit calling it the September Six? Do we need to come up with a broader term?
Sara 05:36 No, I think we just need to be careful with the way that we remember it.
GT 05:43 It’s not just six.
Sara 05:44 It’s not an anomalous thing. It was part of a much, it was a very intense moment that was part of a much broader set of events is why I’m challenging the very firm brackets that can be drawn around it. And I’m trying to say, let’s not have those brackets be so firm.
Sara 06:09 The purity system that I talk about, when I was doing the research for the book, I was reading, General Conference talks and statements by Church leaders. And the word purity came up over and over again. In fact, the statement that the First Presidency and the Twelve [Apostles] issued in October 1993, addressing the September Six, said, “We are responsible for the doctrinal purity of the Church.” I might not get these words exactly right. “In that we are unified.” So purity, and worthiness, I think those are twin concepts, were definitely present in how the Church hierarchy was structuring, I think, the theology of the Church. Part of what I argue in the book was a purity system was put in place. That was in part a response to the rapid expansion of the Church around the globe. I think Church leaders were trying to create a center and to try to unify what they felt like was an increasingly diverse set of members. And so, I think there were a lot of activities that were trying to suggest that there was one set of beliefs. There was one way of being faithful. I include in that the Correlation process. I think that part of what you see in Correlation is the Church saying, “We’re going to structure the experiences of Church members. We’re going to standardize the lessons. But we’re also going to structure the daily lives of believers. Make sure that being a believer isn’t something you do on Sundays, but it’s something that you’re participating in throughout the week in the way that you live in your home and the bodily practices that you do. I think all of that was an attempt to create some unity within the Church.
GT 08:51 And so these excommunications are a way to purify the membership. Is that what is happening?
Sara 09:01 [Yes.] I think [they are] sending a message about what would and would not be acceptable.
GT 09:09 As, as an outsider, as a scholar, do you have an opinion on that? Is that a good thing? Is that a bad thing?
Sara 09:21 Do I have an opinion about it? I saw a lot of the pain that those choices caused. And so, institutions function as institutions do. But it’s always important to remember that humans are part of the institutions and so humans were the ones excommunicating and humans were the ones being excommunicated. Again, institutions act as they do, but it was hard to hear some of the painful stories of people experiencing the disciplinary proceedings.
GT 10:05 I know this isn’t a question you’re going to want to answer, but I’m going to ask it anyway. {Rick laughing} From an outside perspective, would you have any advice on how the Church should handle intellectuals? Do you think that there should be more academic freedom or not?
Sara 10:33 Yeah, I don’t know that it’s my place to say, to answer that question. I do think academic freedom is important. I think it’s important. I will say this, and it’s something that the six were saying, so this isn’t just my idea. But I think it’s important. People are going to be asking questions. And so, then the question is, where can they do that? I think it’s important for institutions to come up with ways that people can ask questions and feel safe in talking about them. And also, those questions can be about how the institution works. They can be about theology. I think framing questions as dangerous to faith can really limit people’s ability to create fulfilling, faithful lives.
GT 11:49 You know, I look at it. Everybody loves to pull out Galileo and how he was such a heretic for thinking that the sun was the center of the universe instead of the earth. Do you see any parallels? Because I don’t know anybody, any believing Catholic, Christian, Jew, anybody that they would think that the sun being the center of the universe would be faith destroying. We’ve come to embrace that. Is there a way? Do you see any similarities between that and some of the struggles the Church is having maybe with historicity of the Bible or the Book of Mormon? Would it be healthy for the Church to say,” we don’t need to fight against some of these things?”
Sara 12:44 I think that I don’t have a lot to say in answer to that question. But I do think I will go back to the asking questions. I think it’s important for people to be able to ask questions.
GT 12:58 Okay. Evolution, I guess would be another thing.
Sara 13:01 Yeah.
GT 13:03 So I’m trying to remember what else. What are we missing?
Sara 13:10 Well, I would say that part of how I came to understand the September Six, and this is why Mark Hofmann just does not fit. {Sara laughing}
GT 13:27 Okay.
Sara 13:31 In this larger group of dissenters that I’m talking about, I think there were people pushing back against the Church’s understanding of theology, and what faithful life would look like. I see common strands in the six of arguing that God is less concerned with rules and following rules, and is more interested in creating an inclusive, egalitarian community where people can have a personal relationship with the spirit. People can be guided by their questions and can focus on figuring out the truth for themselves. Paul Toscano was one who talked about the importance of believers being able to have an active faith, rather than having the faith handed to them, being able to engage in it. And so, I just see that set of commonalities in this group. I think, really what they represent is that diversity in the Church that has been around since the very beginning.
GT 15:03 So, any last advice for people especially, say academics or people looking more in the theology? Do you have any advice for us on how to avoid any problems with our Church leaders?
Sara 15:19 Oh, gosh, I don’t know. {both laughing} Again, I don’t know that I should be the one giving the advice. {Sara laughing}
GT 15:25 We still like it, whether you’re the one or not. I was talking to Cristina Rosetti, and we were talking about whether priests should be married and I’m like, “Well, I’ll give the pope some advice here. I’m not Catholic.” So, I’m giving you that opportunity as well.
Sara 15:41 Okay, so the question is?
GT 15:43 Do you have any advice for the Brent Metcalfe’s and the David Wright’s that may exist in the Church today? Do you just keep your head down and try not to make any waves? Do you have any advice for those kinds of people, Gospel Tangents listeners?
Sara 16:02 I think, in part, I see in these dissenters trying to weigh out, I think they were guided by conscience and individual relationships with the Spirit. There’s a letter by Diane Wright to their stake president, where she talks about Joseph Smith as someone who was willing to seek the truth wherever it led. The Church is should be a group of people who are doing that together as a collective. I do think it’s about how you frame what a faithful life looks like. I think in doing that, you are making a set of choices about your relationship to the institution.
GT 17:09 All right. Any last words?
Sara 17:11 No. Thank you for having me.
GT 17:13 All right. Well, why don’t you show everybody the book again? Tell everybody where they can get it. The September Six, and the Struggle for the Soul of Mormonism. Remind us of your name.
Sara 17:22 Sara Patterson.
GT 17:23 Sara Patterson, So it’s available on Amazon.
Sara 17:26 [Yes,] and independent bookstores.
GT 17:28 Benchmark, I’m sure.
Sara 17:30 Yeah.
GT 17:30 Writ & Vision [Provo, UT]. Who are some of the places that you’ve toured recently here in Utah on your book tour.
Sara 17:37 I was just at the public library last night in Salt Lake and Writ & Vision is tomorrow.
GT 17:43 Okay, All right. Well, Dr. Sara Patterson, thank you so much for being here and Gospel Tangents, I really appreciate it.
Sara 17:49 Thank you.
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Except for book reviews, no content may be reproduced without written permission
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