Last time, Bob Roylance discussed why he believes the Book of Mormon took place in the Yucatan Peninsula. This time, we’ll compare it with the Heartland Theory, another popular geography. Is there one Hill Cumorah or two? Is there a relationship between Yucatan & the Heartland? Check out our conversation…
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Comparing Yucatan with Heartland
GT 00:26 Well, you know what? This brings up the first thing that Heartlanders are going to call you on, as well as some non-believers.
Bob 00:34 We’re all by ourselves on this.
GT 00:37 It’s called the two Cumorah theory. So you’re saying the final battle was in the Yucatan Peninsula?
Bob 00:43 Yeah.
GT 00:44 And so then a Heartlander is going to say, “Well, how did they get from Mexico, or Yucatan? How did the plates get from there to the Hill Cumorah in New York?
Bob 00:54 Oh, he had, what, 40 years? Mormon went into his stash of records, and pulled out these plates. And he gave them to him, [Moroni,] like, you’d better get out of here before you’re killed. And you’ve got 40 years to get to Hill Cumorah.
GT 01:17 To the other Hill Cumorah.
Bob 01:19 In New York. And who knows how he got there? He could have been in all kinds of ways, via water, via walking, via spiritual ways. I don’t know.
GT 01:31 Those plates get heavy.
Bob 01:32 Yeah, so there’s plenty of legitimate reasons how that could have happened, I think.
GT 01:38 Okay. So that’s not something that bothers you?
Bob 01:42 Oh, no.
GT 01:43 Because the Heartlanders love to say, “There’s only one Hill Cumorah.
Bob 01:46 Yeah, well, if you read that scripture, where he hands him the records, if he didn’t intend him to go, then he would say, “This is where the records are. So you just take care of them.” But he handed him the records, the important ones and essentially said, “Get out of here.” So, he did. And so to me, it just makes a lot of sense.
GT 02:12 Okay. I’m sure that’s a place where the Heartlanders are going to be like, “We don’t agree.” But I mean, that’s what’s fun about this, is everybody disagrees with each other on certain points. So what else can you tell us about Yucatan as being the Book of Mormon lands?
Bob 02:31 Well, the Yucatan you get up in Chetumal Bay. I think Chetumal Bay is where the Jaredites landed, or close to that.
GT 02:41 Chetumal Bay, and where’s that?
Bob 02:43 That’s in the very corner of Southeast Yucatan.
GT 02:48 Southeast, so are you proposing an Atlantic crossing for Lehi instead of a Pacific?
Bob 02:53 Yes.
GT 02:54 Oh, so there you’re on board with the Heartlanders.
Bob 02:56 Yeah. Yeah, when I look at the journey of the Pacific, I just say there’s no way that can happen. You’ve got to go over Mongolia. Russia, China. I don’t know what [else.] I’m not sure what they did. But that would be so historic.
GT 03:16 It’s like twice as long as the Atlantic way.
Bob 03:19 Oh, well, just the land, just the land. That would be so historic. But there’s nothing said about it in the Book of Mormon. There is absolutely nothing said about that trip.
GT 03:31 Have you followed George Potter at all?
Bob 03:33 No, no.
GT 03:33 Do you know who George is?
Bob 03:34 No.
GT 03:35 So, one of the things about–I know the Ashtons are another group. They think that Lehi and his family went down the Frankincense trail into Oman.
Bob 03:44 Yeah, I buy that.
GT 03:45 They took a left turn into Yemen basically. And then the question is, did they go across the Indian and Pacific Ocean, or did they go down around Africa and over to Yucatan or Florida as Heartlanders think? But so, I mean, the Meso guys, it sounds like, think they hugged the coast of India and China and everywhere and then jetted across the Pacific. But that’s twice as far as going around Africa and over to Florida or Yucatan.
Bob 04:19 Yeah, there’s a lot of people that very, very clearly believe that. But one of the things that…
GT 04:29 Because the traditional Meso theory is it was a Pacific crossing, but you don’t buy that?
Bob 04:36 One of the reasons I don’t buy it, is because there’s one scripture that tells about the first landing, and the first landing is by the Hill Cumorah. So that blows up that theory, because they had to land over there somewhere on the Mexican coast. And the Mexican coast is a pretty rough place. It’s not the paradise, the choice land above all others, that you find where you find in Belize. So, there’s a whole bunch of reasons why that doesn’t work. One of the criticisms of ours, the 354 days, something like that, it took the Jaredites to cross. Typically, that shouldn’t take that long. And so that’s one criticism. But I think that…
GT 05:17 Really? well, I know–I don’t think you follow my podcast. I interviewed a guy named Philip Beale.
Bob 05:20 Yeah.
GT 05:21 Well, I know–I don’t think you follow my podcast. I interviewed a guy named Philip Beale.
GT 05:27 And he circumnavigated Africa, and it took him over two years. So one year, 354 days…
Bob 05:33 No, this is going through– I show them, the Jaredites went north, directly north, or northward. The term is northward. They hit the Black Sea. They built some barges there, probably a trial run barge, to get them to Europe. Then they went, probably by Switzerland, and then ended up at the north side of Spain, where there’s big, tall pine trees.
GT 06:01 Through the Mediterranean Sea; is that what you’re saying?
Bob 06:03 No, they went round the other, through the land to the—they had to go up through the Black Sea. And that put them in Europe, kind of middle Europe. So, from there, they just went there to northern Spain.
GT 06:19 And then they took off from Spain.
Bob 06:20 And there’s an unusual mountain there to get the stones, and also there’s a bunch of pine trees that are really tall and straight, and they can build the ships. To me, that’s not a big issue. They could have gone other ways. But that is a possibility. But they hooked onto the North American current that took them towards the Canary Islands, then hit the Canary Island current.
GT 06:50 Right.
Bob 06:51 I believe that because that’s such a rapid current, that they probably had all kinds of animals and bees and all kinds. I don’t know how they did it, if it had been over 300 days.
GT 07:09 I think it took Philip, because he went along the Mediterranean, down by Spain, Canary Islands, and over and it took him nine months.
Bob 07:19 Nine months.
GT 07:19 Yeah.
Bob 07:21 Well, if that is a problem for somebody, then the Canary Islands could be an answer. It doesn’t say they did. But you know, that whole, how many years were the Jaredites? Golly, 2000 years, and there’s only about a few chapters devoted to what their activities [were.] Most of the chapters are filled with theology and spiritual comments, but there’s a few chapters that tell about their travels, and they could have easily left that out.
GT 07:58 That’s an important part of the story, though.
Bob 08:00 Yeah. Well, you can take it anywhere you want on that one, if you’re going from that way. But the currents there, the South Caribbean currents just takes it right in to Belize.
GT 08:11 Right, okay.
Bob 08:13 Right there. So that part is really neat.
GT 08:19 Well, cool. So you believe an Atlantic crossing, and then they ended up in the Yucatan Peninsula. So, both Lehi and the Jaredites did that, basically?
Bob 08:35 No. Lehi came around through the Pacific. He probably followed the islands, because there are some islands.
GT 08:46 Well, I thought you said he didn’t go through the Pacific.
Bob 08:48 Oh Lehi, oh no. I’m talking about Mulek, or I’m talking about the Jaredites.
GT 08:53 So, the Jaredites went across the Atlantic and Lehi went across the Pacific?
Bob 08:57 The Mulekites went across the Atlantic.
GT 09:01 Yeah, so but it’s that’s twice the distance across the Pacific than the Atlantic.
Bob 09:07 Oh, yeah. It’s a long, I mean, by the time you figure all that land bridge, I mean, that land, and then all that Pacific. Huge, huge.
GT 09:17 Yeah, well, so the Ashtons and George Potter both believe that Nephi built a harbor in Yemen.
Bob 09:28 I believe that, too.
GT 09:29 And the question is, did he go through the Pacific or around Africa? The Heartlanders are going to say around Africa. And the Meso people say Pacific. I thought you said the Lehi landed on the east side of the Yucatan. Didn’t you say that?
Bob 09:46 No, that was the Mulekites.
GT 09:47 That was the Mulekites.
Bob 09:50 Yeah, I would have to support the Pacific on Lehi.
GT 09:59 Even though it’s twice the distance.
Bob 10:05 Because the whole model, my whole model is dependent on the fact that they arrived at the Pacific Coast, my whole model.
GT 10:16 Couldn’t they have just done what the Jaredites did? Why would that be a problem?
Bob 10:19 If they went on the Pacific, somewhere, they’d have to go down around South America to get in to the Atlantic.
GT 10:29 Because here’s the problem. So Philip Beale, I have to send you that link to that interview, because that was pretty interesting. He’s an English guy who wanted to recreate this trip around Africa. Because he had heard that the ancient philosopher Herodotus had said that the ancient Phoenicians circumnavigated Africa, and it took them three years. So Phillip wanted to redo that. And so he, in 2009, took off from, well he actually went from Syria through the Red Sea and everything. It’s not quite exactly what Lehi would have done, but close enough. And then he went around, when he got down to Cape Town, South Africa, the winds just automatically blew him practically to Florida. He was only 300 miles from Florida. But his purpose was to circumnavigate Africa. And so, it’s all he can do to turn the ship around and sail back. And so, he did. It took him two years and two months. But the Heartlanders are saying, “Well, if the winds and the currents just take you to Florida, that’s a much easier way to go.” And I asked him, specifically, about a Pacific crossing. And if you’re using a sailboat, here’s what he said. “If you’re using a sailboat, it’s best to go west.” So that would be from Cape Town, you’re going west to Florida, basically. And the currents and the wind just automatically take you there. And so, if you’re starting off, I mean, even if you wanted to say Lehi got to Japan, the wind is against you. I asked him about the Equatorial Current. And he’s like, well, that’s like a mile an hour. The wind’s going to blow you backwards more than the current’s going to take you forwards. And so, he really said that a Pacific crossing is really not feasible. If you’re going to get to America from the Old World, you pretty much have to go through the Atlantic Ocean. The Pacific’s almost impossible.
Bob 12:35 I don’t know that. You know, the proposed landing site, Lehi’s landing site, there’s quite a bit of evidence that he was there. And then, of course, my belief that Salamá Valley is the land of Nephi, which is about 150 miles from the site where they landed.
GT 12:59 On the west coast?
Bob 13:01 On the west coast. So that all fits really well. I mean, there’s the tree of life thing that has a lot of—
GT 13:08 Do you have a map of the Yucatan that you could pull up really quick? Because it seems to me the Yucatan, it’s in the Gulf of Mexico. And it’s going to be hard to get to the west coast of the Yucatan Peninsula, especially unless you’re coming from the Atlantic Ocean, isn’t it? Okay, so as we’re looking at that map, if you’re saying that Lehi landed on the west coast of the Yucatan Peninsula.
Bob 13:35 Right in here.
GT 13:36 Oh, so that’s not really the Yucatan Peninsula, that’s more like, what is that? Guatemala?
Bob 13:41 Yeah, well, that’s on the line. That’s right on the line of Mexico and Guatemala.
GT 13:46 Okay, I was misunderstanding that then.
Bob 13:48 Okay.
GT 13:48 Because I was thinking you were up by Campeche, or whatever that is.
Bob 13:51 Well, that’s the Mulekite and the Jaredites landed.The Mulekites came from the Atlantic side. The Lehites came from the Pacific side.
GT 14:01 Well, Lehi took the longer, harder route then. And that just doesn’t seem right after talking to Phillip Beale. He convinced me a Pacific crossing is crazy hard. You can’t do that with a sailboat. So, you still you think that’s what happened?
Bob 14:24 Well, I guess that is one point. I agree with all the other people. The Mesoamerica people. I kind of gave them that.
GT 14:36 Okay.
Bob 14:37 I never really studied that.
GT 14:37 And so he started out in Guatemala, and then they just went up, so this is the land southward and then moving up into the Yucatan Peninsula.
Bob 14:49 Okay. Yeah, the question is what?
GT 14:52 So he started out in Guatemala, right?
Bob 14:54 Yeah, right here. Nephi did.
GT 14:57 Nephi and then that’s the land southward and then they went up into Belize, and the Yucatan Peninsula?
Bob 15:03 Well, the land of Nephi would be right in this area here.
GT 15:07 Okay. In Guatemala.
Bob 15:09 And then the land of Zarahemla would be here.
GT 15:11 Okay.
Bob 15:13 Then the 350 Treaty, where all of the Nephites had to go north, it would be right from here on up.
GT 15:22 Okay.
Bob 15:22 And then the final war would be in this area here.
GT 15:26 Okay.
Bob 15:30 So that’s how my model fits.
GT 15:36 All right.
Bob 15:37 But both the Mulekites and the Jaredites came into here. And the currents here are very favorable for that landing right in here.
GT 15:47 Okay.
Bob 15:48 And right through here, during the early days of the Jaredites, there’s a lot of the earliest settlements in the Yucatan, right in here or in Central America. Some of the very earliest settlements are in what we call a formative period.
GT 16:03 Okay.
Bob 16:04 And to me that’s a very powerful, a very powerful piece of evidence.
GT 16:10 Okay. If only we could find a sign that said Nephi was here. {laughing}
Bob 16:15 You know, I’ve never paid much attention. I went to that site where they landed. I was there. And I saw the possibility of a temple. Solomon’s Temple is about the same site.
GT 16:33 That’s another question I have for you because it seems like most of the temples, in fact, as you look they’ve got a big pyramid, there.
Bob 16:41 Chichen Itza.
GT 16:41 That doesn’t look like a Semitic temple. Does it?
Bob 16:49 I don’t know. {chuckling}
GT 16:51 I mean, if you look at some of those Old Testament videos, they’ve got the Tabernacle. In fact, I think BYU right now, there was a big display of the Tabernacle, I think getting ready for Easter or something. And it looks nothing like the step pyramid.
Bob 17:09 Yeah.
GT 17:10 So the architecture, because Nephi said he built a temple like unto Solomon, well, that wouldn’t be a pyramid, would it?
Bob 17:15 Well, okay, the temples Nephi and the Nephites, they didn’t build any of these kinds of things. It would have been the Jaredites who would have built them and so they came from different culture than the Nephites.
GT 17:31 Okay. So all the step pyramids are Jaredite pyramids?
Bob 17:36 Pretty much.
GT 17:37 Okay.
Bob 17:40 I don’t think there’s any pyramids that are, in fact in Cebal, well, there’s a few little pyramids there. Maybe they were constructed probably by the Mulekites, while they’re there.
GT 17:56 So all the architecture we have are Mulekite and Jaredite. They’re not Nephite?
Bob 18:04 Well, I think in Cebal and in Chichen Itza, where we showed those cities. I think that’s Mulekite or Nephite type.
GT 18:14 Okay, but they’re still step pyramids aren’t there? Or maybe I’m misremembering?
Bob 18:20 Well, there’s some pyramids in both. One, there’s one pyramid in Chichen Itza. In Cebal there’s a few small pyramids. But those could have been; I think we need more information on the timing of when they were built. Because a lot of pyramids were built after the demise of the Nephites. A lot of other temples were built after that.
GT 18:48 Okay.
Bob 18:50 So there needs to be a study of the timing of how those temples; Now there’s also some temples built before Christ. But that’s up in the northern part. But that’s a good question. That’s a real good question.
{End of Part 2}
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