Janice Allred was given the most severe probation from Church leaders one can get. It soon led to her excommunication. Janice discusses her writings, speeches, and events that led to her excommunication from the LDS Church. She also shares whether she has discusses her experiences with others who have been excommunicated like John Dehlin, Kate Kelly, & Denver Snuffer. Check out our conversation….
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Life on Probation
Interview
Janice 00:41 But the second one came in terms of all of the back and forth that we went through in a year and a half. It was a long time.
GT 00:51 The second one, you mean, the second meeting?
Janice 00:53 The second article I did.
GT 00:55 Oh, the second article.
Janice 00:56 [The article in] which I challenged the idea that the Lord will not allow the prophet to lead the church astray. It was a very important article, too. Both of these articles are in a collection of essays, if anyone wants to read them. A collection of essays published by Signature in 1997, called God the Mother: and Other Theological Essays. But, interestingly enough, although these things are presented as teaching false doctrine, heresy, quickly, they devolve into a question of obedience to authorities or not. And that was the fundamental question.
GT 01:39 I know apostasy is generally the charge that they excommunicate almost all intellectuals for. Shouldn’t it just be, oh what’s the word? I said this to Paul, and I was like, basically, aren’t you just subverting authority? Isn’t that what it really is? They just call it apostasy.
Janice 02:07 They do call it apostasy. But usually it starts out…
GT 02:10 Subordination.
Janice 02:11 Insubordination.
GT 02:12 Insubordination.
Janice 02:14 Usually it starts out with some kind of an idea, an article or teaching, something like that. It usually starts that way. But then it will quickly change into, like, with me, “You’re not allowed to publish this.” It’s not. “This is what’s wrong with your article. This is why it goes against Church teachings.” whatever. It’s, “We told you not to publish it. You disobeyed. Therefore, you deserve to be punished.”
GT 02:44 Right.
Janice 02:44 Now, I did a very extensive defense in my first court, in my second court as well. But I show that there is no Church law against disobeying Church authorities. People do this all the time. Does everyone follow the directives given to them by their bishops or stake presidents? No. Usually you’re not excommunicated for that. I mean, I pointed this one out, which, to me, was very humorous. When I came back from Mexico, I was asked to work in the ward nursery, which I was glad to do. And the Bishop, who called me to this was so grateful. He said to me, “You are the 17th person we asked, and you are the first one who would accept this.”
GT 03:33 Oh, wow.
Janice 03:34 Now, so I’m this disobedient person who will not do what the bishop asked, but I accepted a call to the church nursery. But then they’re going to punish me because I refuse to obey an order to not publish my article when the stake president has no authority to give me such an order. And I have no obligation to obey such an order. That’s how wrong it is. So, yes, I was always willing to be an obedient member of the ward and church, but not against my conscience. And to me, it came down to—and this was put to me very forcefully in my first court.
GT 04:26 This is ’94, your first court?
Janice 04:28 Yeah.
GT 04:28 This is when they put you on a formal probation?
Janice 04:30 Right.
GT 04:32 Because you’re still serving in the nursery.
Janice 04:34 No, not in the nursery.
GT 04:37 Oh, they released you?
Janice 04:38 They released me.
GT 04:39 Oh, so on probation, you can’t hold callings?
Janice 04:43 You could do anything. You could do anything. This was one of the things that was unfair. They did everything to me, which a person on disfellowshipment has, except one thing they allowed me to do, which was to sustain Church authorities.
GT 04:59 Which you weren’t doing a very good job of. { chuckling}
Janice 05:04 Well, not according to their definition. According to my definition I was. {both laughing} Yeah, but the problem is they get to define these things.
GT 05:13 Right.
Janice 05:14 But it was, through the whole long process of going through two courts, and all the interviews and everything I did with the bishop and stake president, they were never willing, or ever wanted to talk about what was wrong with my articles. And the bishop said to me very clearly. He said, “Well, no, I’m not going to discuss what you wrote”. He said, “You know, a lot more than I do. You know, the scriptures better than I do. And I couldn’t.”
I said, “I’m willing to be persuaded, if you can show me where I’m wrong. I can be persuaded. Do it.” No, he wouldn’t do it, he knew he couldn’t. {both laughing}
GT 05:58 Was that a surprise to you that he admitted “Hey, you are way above me.”
Janice 06:01 No, I knew that. And in fact, I had never insisted that they do that. Because to me, that was not the question. I was not trying to convince them. They didn’t have to read my articles. They would have never known about them, if the Church hadn’t brought them to their attention.
GT 06:23 So at this point, you’re released from the nursery, to show we mean business. You can still come to church. Were you able to take the sacrament?
Janice 06:36 No, no. I couldn’t do anything.
GT 06:38 You couldn’t take the sacrament. Okay.
Janice 06:39 No, everything was forbidden to me, except one thing, which was interesting: Making comments in Sunday school.
GT 06:49 You could make comments.
Janice 06:51 I was allowed to. Now some bishops will not allow a person on disfellowship or excommunicated to do that. But my bishop always did, which was interesting to me.
GT 07:00 Okay.
Janice 07:01 He didn’t tell me this. This came out later. Because the Sunday School teacher, at this time, was actually very kind. And he said to me, “The comments you make are really good, so feel free.” So I did. But then the bishop told me [that] someone had complained. And the bishop said to me, “I told that person that I have given you permission.:
GT 07:26 Oh, Okay.
Janice 07:26 And I thought, Oh, I didn’t know I had permission from you. But I’m glad I do. So yeah, that’s it.
GT 07:36 So can you still make comments in Sunday School?
Janice 07:37 Yeah, I still do, 30 years later.
GT 07:40 Even after you’ve been excommunicated, they don’t take that away from you?
Janice 07:43 Well, here’s an interesting thing. There’s a difference between an excommunicated person and a non-member. An excommunicated person has fewer privileges than a non-member.
GT 07:58 Yeah, because we can actually, well, I don’t know that we do this anymore. But when we had scouts, you could call a non-member to be a scout leader.
Janice 08:06 Yeah.
GT 08:08 Which you couldn’t do, obviously.
Janice 08:11 A non-member could take the sacrament, if they wanted to.
GT 08:15 Well, technically, we have closed communion. Right? They’re not supposed to. We don’t enforce it.
Janice 08:21 No, they’re not supposed to. I mean, the scriptural statements against it are very clear. If the leaders know that a person is unworthy to take the sacrament, they should not allow that person to take the sacrament.
GT 08:38 Okay.
Janice 08:38 That’s from Jesus Himself. It’s in the Book of Mormon.
GT 08:42 Well, I know that Lavina has made a joke about when she’s sitting on the side and the deacons are trying to pass it around her and she’ll just grab the tray, and pass it over. {chuckling}
Janice 08:51 We’re allowed to pass the tray. When I go to wards where they don’t know me, I take the sacrament.
GT 08:59 Oh.
Janice 09:00 Because I believe I’m worthy. And because, this, bishop has no authority over me.
GT 09:06 Would you get in trouble in your home ward for doing that?
Janice 09:09 I have no idea. It might be okay. But I’m respectful of the authority of the bishop in my ward. He could, I believe, say to me, “Janice, you can take this sacrament.” And I would appreciate that. In fact, I wish he would. In fact, I have thought of asking.
GT 09:26 Should we send this to him?
Janice 09:29 I’ve thought of asking him, but then this thought occurs to me, if I asked him and he refuses, then he will be under greater condemnation than he already is.
GT 09:39 So better Don’t Ask Don’t Tell?
Janice 09:41 I won’t ask because I don’t want to. I don’t want to…
GT 09:45 Put him in a tough position.
Janice 09:46 Put him in a tough position. Right.
GT 09:47 Yeah.
Janice 09:47 I’m respectful of, and I always told that to the bishop. I said, “Look, the views that you condemn as heretical, I have held for many years. I know the proper forums in which I can express them. Church, the ward, Sunday school, that is not the proper forum, and I would never do that. But they didn’t respect that. And yes, I’ve continued, and there’s never been any, as far as I know, there has never been any problem with the things that I have shared.
GT 10:27 At least at church.
Janice 10:28 At church, yes.
GT 10:29 You don’t talk about the Godhead?
Janice 10:31 No, of course not. {both laughing}
Janice 10:34 You cannot discuss these things in a casual, offhand way.
GT 10:39 Right.
Janice 10:39 You have to lay the ground and be respectful of where your audience is, in order to do it. And I would never do that. I’ve never had any desire to disturb someone’s testimony of God or the Church. My only hope is to help people better understand Jesus Christ and the gospel. That’s all I’ve ever wanted to do. If a person has questions, I’m really happy to give some answers.
GT 11:14 That’s why we’re here. {chuckling}
Janice 11:15 Exactly. If they don’t, it’s fine with me.
Probation to Excommunication
Interview
GT 11:20 All right. So ’94 comes. You get put on probation. What happens next?
Janice 11:29 So this was a really interesting thing, because I was prepared to be excommunicated, then. But I believe that because of all of the publicity, the Church did not want to look bad. And so they put me on formal probation. But to me, it was kind of holding the sword over my head. Because basically, I had told them very clearly that I intended to publish these. So the one on God the Mother had already been published. The other one, I intended to publish it, again, if somebody wanted to publish it. And I intended to keep writing about topics that were important to me in the Gospel, and all of these things. But the bishop gave me a list of conditions that I had to follow. And I don’t remember them exactly. He never gave me a written list. So I just had to remember them. But what I remember is it strictly forbid; it strictly limited my ability to speak and write freely. And I told them very clearly that I would not accept that. So, I actually wrote what I called an open letter to Bishop Hammond, which I gave to the press, because it was all out there. And he was very, he was very indignant with me for sharing these sacred proceedings of the council. I said,” Okay, I understand that you are required to keep them confidential. But this is my court. I can make it as public as I want to.” That’s how client/lawyer privilege goes. That’s how client/therapists privilege goes. That’s how privilege goes. The person who is the client can speak openly.
Janice 13:22 And I said to them, “And I give you my permission, you can speak”. They wouldn’t of course. So, I made this, I said, “This is how I stand in relation to the conditions you gave me. I will follow all the ones that you have the authority to impose, as in; I will not partake of the sacrament, I will behave in a seemly manner at church.” And I was very insulted that he would imply that I wouldn’t. It just went against what he knew about me, what is true of me. I wouldn’t do that. But I said, “I’m not willing to have my writing and publishing and speaking overseen by you.” So, I was clear. So, basically, between the two courts, it was the bishop waiting to get enough evidence that I had broken the conditions, so that he could then excommunicate me.
It was, “Keep these conditions or you will be excommunicated.”
And my position was, “You have no authority to make these conditions. So I will not follow the things that you have no authority to exercise over me.” So then, that was in October, and in May of the next year, I was excommunicated.
GT 14:50 So, October of ’94, you are put on probation. May of ’95, you’re excommunicated because you didn’t follow the rules. Did you published another article?
Janice 15:03 I gave several speeches.
GT 15:05 Okay.
Janice 15:06 And I think it was mostly for that. Again, I’d have to go back and look.
GT 15:10 Because you weren’t supposed to speak publicly without the bishop’s permission.
Janice 15:14 I had given a speech. So the Mormon Women’s Forum had a conference each year, which is called Counterpoint Conference. And at Counterpoint Conference they asked, and, of course, I was one of the organizers of it. But I was asked to give an account of my Church discipline up to that point. So I did that. And we had a journal at that time. It was published there. My bishop wanted [it.] This became a huge issue. My bishop wanted a copy of that speech so he could decide whether I had broken the rules or not. I said, “I’m not going to give you a copy of it. If you wanted to, you could have come and heard it.” It was published, And then I actually gave it twice.
GT 16:05 Plus he was getting everything off the sly anyway?
Janice 16:07 Exactly, and he was very upset about that. But, to me, that was, he had no right to coerce me.
GT 16:20 So did they have spies at this (conference)?
Janice 16:23 I think they do.
GT 16:24 Okay.
Janice 16:25 Plus, my speaking to the press.
GT 16:27 Because it was a public event. So anybody could come whether you were a member the Mormon Women’s Alliance or not.
Janice 16:31 Right? Yes, it was public. And also, I gave the same speech to another group, a Provo group. I can’t remember who they were. And I think that’s the one he heard about, because that was publicized in the Daily Herald. Anyway, I gave a lot of interviews. And that was part of what they had against me, giving all of these interviews.
GT 16:56 So no interviews without Church clearance.
Janice 16:59 Exactly. And what had I done? So, I really hadn’t given that many papers since. There was not that much time between them, October and May. Again, life is busy for me. I don’t have that much time to write. It was really a lot of work to do. I was writing my account for the case reports. I was always working on that one.
Mormon Alliance
Interview
GT 17:36 So the Mormon Alliance, this was something that you and Lavina did together?
Janice 17:42 Yeah.
GT 17:43 How long did that organization last? Because it’s not really around anymore?
Janice 17:47 No. Again, I think it started in ’92 when my youngest was—it may have been before.
GT 17:57 And you were documenting what Lavina said, I think, was ecclesiastical abuse?
Janice 18:03 Exactly.
GT 18:04 Basically, where a leader would punish an intellectual, for the most part.
Janice 18:11 And all of our case reports were not intellectuals. There were other cases as well. The Mormon Alliance was actually organized, the idea came from Paul Toscano and Fred Voros. And then Margaret was one of the founders, and Lavina came in, and I did and who else? Several of us and that’s what we did at first. We had quite a few different meetings. And then Lavina and I started working on the case reports together. I think our first one wasn’t published until 1995, which was the year I was excommunicated. It was on child sexual abuse.
GT 18:59 Oh, so it did encase sexual abuse, as well. Okay.
Janice 19:04 That’s where I got started…
GT 19:08 Is that where the leaders were doing it? Like is this Boy Scouts, or other stuff as well?
Janice 19:14 Other stuff. We had a lot of information, a lot of cases. We were working on it, but it didn’t come out till later. So, my work with the Mormon Women’s Forum and the Mormon Alliance, and my presentations at Sunstone had not really been an issue in the first court. It was just the papers. The second court, my bishop was bringing up all these other things, as well.
GT 19:45 Okay. Why do you think that is? He just needed more evidence?
Janice 19:50 I think he was getting all this information from the Church about my different “insubordinate” activities, I guess. But he had a very skewed perspective on what the purpose of all these different things were. He saw me as being involved with groups that were trying to bring the Church down, which was totally absurd, wrong, of course. But I didn’t get it at the time. I didn’t see why he saw me as such a dangerous person.
Why Kate Kelly/John Dehlin/Denver Snuffer Got in Trouble
Interview
GT 20:30 Have you ever, because it seems like around 2015 or so, Kate Kelly, John Dehlin, and I think Denver Snuffer, they were all excommunicated around that time. I think there were a few others, a few maybe lesser-known people. [Robert] Norman. (I can’t remember what his name was.) But have any of those people come to you with “Hey, do you have any advice for me on how to handle the situation?” Do you have any insight into that?
Janice 21:04 No, they haven’t come to me. But of course, I’ve been interested. My perception is each of those people that you mentioned, were gathering followings. And that is what the Church does not want. I think that’s one reason why they went after Avraham Gileadi, because he had big followings who would come to his lectures. And I think they saw Paul as a charismatic person, who was gathering followings. Paul has never had any interest in gathering a following. In fact, he’s anti. He will push people away. But you know, Kate Kelly, she was the head of Ordain Women. John Dehlin had his…
GT 21:45 Mormon Stories.
Janice 21:46 Mormon Stories. And Snuffer, of course, had a big group. So, I see that as the common factor, as well.
GT 21:53 Well, Denver, he’s a former guest. He didn’t really start his following until after he got excommunicated.
Janice 22:02 Oh really? That’s interesting. No, I didn’t realize that.
GT 22:06 Because he really wanted to stay in. I mean, it’s funny, you hear some similar things. “Well tell me what I said wrong.” Because he had written a book or two that got him in hot water. But yeah, he didn’t really start until after he was excommunicated.
Janice 22:23 Did he? But was he doing podcasts or anything that was?
GT 22:30 Well, the reason why he got excommunicated was a book called Passing the Heavenly Gift.
Janice 22:37 So it was a publication.
GT 22:38 Yeah. It’s funny, because he had another one called The Second Comforter, which was actually sold at Deseret Book, which, in some ways, in my mind [was a bigger problem.] The Church didn’t really have a problem at the time. But he was advocating, “You can see Jesus. He can visit you. He has visited me,” and those sorts of things, and that was fine. But in Passing the Heavenly Gift, I think, personally, this is my opinion. He had said some things, and it was viewed as denigrating Church leaders, especially Heber J. Grant. His response was,” I was just recording what Heber J Grant said in his journal.” Like, why is that wrong? But if you read the book, a case can be made that he was denigrating Heber J. Grant specifically. Once again, he wasn’t following counsel. And so there’s, some similarities, but it was really after the Church excommunicated him that he kind of excommunicated the Church and was like, okay. But he’s kind of a libertarian in that he doesn’t really want to be the leader. In fact, he hates to be called a prophet, even though he fits the definition of a prophet. But he’s like, “There’s too much with that word, too much baggage with that word.” And he doesn’t really want to be the leader. It’s kind of a libertarian. “Hey, you know, here’s my recipe book, The Second Comforter. You too can get a visit with Jesus and see angels and that sort of a thing, if you follow this recipe,” basically. “But go do your own thing. I’m not the leader.” So it’s kind of funny. I mean, he really is the leader but he doesn’t claim to be the leader. {chuckling}
Janice 24:32 What you say brings up something which I think is actually crucial, which is these people are pointing, in different ways. They are taking people away from the authority of the Church. As in, he’s saying, “You do not need the Church to access God, to see Jesus. You can do this yourself.” And I remember another case that the Mormon Alliance case reports dealt with, which was, I think his name was George Pace.
GT 25:13 Yeah.
Janice 25:14 A teacher at BYU, a religion teacher.
GT 25:17 Who was very similar to Denver.
Janice 25:18 Yeah, very similar. He was teaching people to have prayer to get closer to Christ. And he was disciplined for that.
GT 25:26 Right.
GT 25:29 Denver wasn’t. It was the: Don’t talk bad about Heber J Grant.
Janice 25:34 But that is another point that comes in. And that came in with me too, because in some of the things I was saying. I was not deliberately saying [that] Hinckley is wrong here, but I was questioning him, in both ones.
GT 25:52 And they were reading between the lines.
Janice 25:54 Oh, yes. No, they don’t want you to question. They don’t want you to do anything that will diminish their authority, whether it’s pointing people to other ways to connect with Christ and spirituality, or whether it’s criticizing anything that any of them said or disobey anything that will call their authority into question. That is what they will go after. That’s my view.
GT 26:22 Well, and I wonder if that’s why, because Maxine has come back into the Church.
Janice 26:27 Right.
GT 26:29 But Lavina was denied.
Janice 26:31 Right?.
GT 26:32 And is it because of the drawing attention to ecclesiastical abuse whether that is sexual abuse or disciplining church intellectuals, or that sort of a thing? It almost seems to me, tell me if you agree or disagree, that that’s kind of an unforgivable sin? “Don’t point out our flaws.”
Janice 26:54 Yeah, I think so. And again, it’s sad, because, like with Lavina, they didn’t tell her why.
GT 27:02 Right.
Janice 27:02 Or they didn’t say: apply again in two years. They just said, “No, we don’t accept it”. Which is very sad, because, Lavina is a woman of very strong character, has strong belief in Christ and wanted to be rebaptized. She has never done anything…
GT 27:24 Right.
Janice 27:25 Nothing slightly unethical or questionable.
GT 27:28 Yeah.
Janice 27:29 And she has not written that much, either. She’s an editor.
GT 27:33 Right. But just the association with the Mormon Alliance.
Janice 27:38 It could have been the Mormon Alliance. It could be our case reports. I don’t know, because they don’t tell you.
GT 27:45 Because Maxine wasn’t really affiliated with that.
Janice 27:46 No, Maxine wasn’t.
GT 27:48 I mean, Michael Quinn wasn’t either. He has passed away now.
Janice 27:53 I don’t think Michael decided, from what was read at the Symposium. I believe that although he was excommunicated for his scholarly writings, I believe that because of his homosexuality, he felt that he couldn’t challenge things and couldn’t stay.
GT 28:15 Yeah.
Janice 28:16 I feel that. I mean, I don’t I know.
GT 28:17 I agree with you and it makes a lot of sense.
Janice 28:21 It makes sense to me, from what was read from his memoir…
GT 28:25 Yeah.
Janice 28:25 At the symposium.
GT 28:26 Yeah. And that’s coming out. I think in September, maybe.
Janice 28:31 I think the symposium audio, I think it might be available right now, from what was at the Symposium. But the book, which was written by the scholar is going to come out in September, I think. And I think Michael’s memoir is coming out in September, too, I’m not sure.
{End of Part 3}
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