Many churches are struggling with how to handle LGBT members. The United Methodist Church is splitting over the issue of gay clergy. What are the similarities and differences between Baptists and LDS? We’ll also discuss the recent apology from the Baptist Church over race issues. Check out our conversation…
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How Baptists View Gay Couples
GT 00:28 Well, let’s move on to something that is still heavy, but not as heavy.
Kyle 00:32 Okay, that was very heavy.
GT 00:37 Gay marriage is a big issue in America, at least. So, what are your church’s feelings? And if you want to talk about the evangelicals.
Kyle 00:50 Yeah, I can do it again.
GT 00:52 Talk about evangelicals broadly, and then into you.
Kyle 00:55 So, just like women’s roles in ministry have a spectrum, as well, and it gets super nuanced and confusing, to be frank. So, on one side, you have marriage between a man and a woman alone. And underneath that is the theological assumption of sex between a man and a woman being heterosexual. And then even more than that, a man is a man, and a woman is a woman. So, we’re talking about same-sex marriages is his one door into a room with all sorts of different issues that are related to it, topics that are related to it; So, a very traditional perspective. On the other end, same-sex marriage, of course, because it’s a constitutional right, if you’re not allowing a same-sex couples to be married, you’re trampling on their constitutional rights. So, the church should be in support of that, even if, morally or ethically, you disagree. I’m getting the sense that that was the LDS Church’s recent position. I forget what the bill was, basically, like protecting…
GT 02:20 Oh, the Congressional bill that just passed, you’re talking about? Yeah, so basically, I will say this a little bit crassly. But yeah, we recognize it’s the law of the land, but don’t make us do it.
Kyle 02:32 Yeah. So, that’s what is said as a crass way, if we flip the coin over, so the positive side, I’m not a defender of the LDS Church. But I could hear them say, also, we want to ensure equal treatment or equal rights for US citizens, but we’re a religious institution.
GT 02:54 And we want to be able to discriminate.
Kyle 02:56 We do. We want to be able to be able to define marriage. So, again, there’s parallels between here and in broader evangelicalism. Now, I said it was crazy nuanced, because then you get into issues of well, what does it mean for same-sex? What does it mean for two people in a same- sex marriage to get there to begin with? Is it just being gay or lesbian, and acting on it? Or is it being gay and lesbian and remaining celibate? That’s a huge debate that’s raging in evangelicalism. We have evangelicals on both sides of that.
Kyle 03:38 And then on top of that, you get into many men and women who don’t see the connection between biological sex and gender, one of which is biologically received, through mom and dad, the other is formed by culture. And what’s right and what’s wrong there. These are brand new conversations. One was Obergefell 2011.
GT 04:10 Was it that long ago? Maybe.
Kyle 04:11 I feel like it’s that long, but that really wasn’t that long ago. I don’t think anybody’s doing a good job talking about this. Just to be frank, whether it’s you or us or even people outside of the church, which is why I think there’s so much contention and division. Where do we land? As a church, again, going back to the Bible believe that the ideal is that God created man and woman. And the ideal for marriage is that a man would marry a woman. And in doing so, what they’re doing is they’re presenting to the world a parable of the Gospel, whereby the man is representative of Christ and the woman is representative of the bride. Now, that’s where you need to stop with the analogy. You don’t go any further into weird interpretations of Song of Solomon. Just stop right there.
GT 05:09 {Chuckling} That wasn’t inspired, anyway.[1]
Kyle 05:11 Oh, yeah, that’s right.
GT 05:13 Except for he quoted from it.
Kyle 05:14 Yeah, there’s a guy in our camp, recently, who caused quite a stir by taking that analogy past the frontier. He was, in my opinion, rightly chastised for it. But no, we believe and uphold that the ideal for marriage, not the ideal for the human status, I want to make that clear, because again, we values singleness, but the ideal status or the ideal for marriage is one man and one woman. And that within that marriage, when it’s healthy, and it’s good, and it’s true, and it’s open, and it’s safe, that is the best place for human sexuality to be expressed. And that’s a pretty, I think that’s probably a pretty standard, conservative evangelical position. Now, that doesn’t mean we don’t value or even hate people that would disagree with us on that. I love men and women that disagree with me. I love men and women, and I hope to have friendships that blossom, that would disagree with that. And so if they disagree with me or not, I don’t think sexuality is the core of your identity. That’s not who you are. You’re an image-bearer of God. That’s who you are. And I try, every single person, I see, to see them first as being a creation that God loves, and not only a creation that God loves, but John 3:16, that He sent His Son to redeem that very person.
Kyle 07:08 So you want to talk about tier one issue and tier two issue as far as my relationships with people, tier one issue is that you’re an image bearer of God. And one of my goals in life is to love you, like I love myself. That’s the greatest commandment. If you abandon the greatest commandment, and if you jettison the fact that human beings are created in the image and likeness of God, the only thing that’s going to fill those vacuums are fear and hate. And that’s what we’re seeing in our culture right now. That’s why we can’t even agree to disagree. Because we, I think the fear, socially, is for LGBTQIA, they fear the ostracization. But what they, perhaps, maybe– I don’t speak for them, I’m not a part of their community, but what they fear even more is hate and rejection, and isolation. And what is it that the enemy wants the most for us? It’s isolation, because we weren’t created for isolation. We were created for community. And if you can just look past the surface for a second and see people as hearts and souls, right? Then how is the gospel speaking to that person individually? I am a sinner. I’m not perfect by any means. I need the gospel spoken to me, too. And sometimes I’ve had that spoken to me in the oddest places that I would never have recommended. So, yeah, that’s a long…
GT 08:42 Well, let me ask this. Would a gay or lesbian couple be welcomed in your congregation?
Kyle 08:51 They may attend our congregation, because what we want to do is we want to provide for them a space where they get to hear the gospel, where they get to hear the Bible preached. And what the Holy Spirit does with them, it’s his work. The church is not supposed to be a place where your opinions are spoon fed to you. It’s not even a place where your morality is supposed to be spoon fed to you. It’s supposed to be a place where the Holy Spirit moves among the people of God to sanctify them. And everybody is at a different stage of their sanctification. So, if you expect everyone to be at a certain spot in their spiritual journey, well, then, what are you doing? Think about the Gospel of John and Nicodemus. So, you see Nicodemus three times in the Gospel of John. You see him coming by the cover of night, interested in this Jesus guy, not quite sure, and confused as all get out. He says, how do I be saved? You’ve got to be born again. He’s like, how can I be born again? I come out of my mother’s womb twice. That’s ridiculous.
Kyle 10:08 He goes home and he mulls on it. The second time you see him, and he’s in the Sanhedrin, or council with other religious leaders. And they’re like, What are we going to do with this Jesus guy? Nicodemus is like, there might be something to it. And then they’re like, who are you, one of His disciples? And the third time you see Jesus, or the third time you see Nicodemus, he’s taking Jesus’s dead body into the tomb, which disqualifies him for participation in the religious feasts that were occurring at that time, because he’s touching a dead body, not only dead body, but one that Rome crucified. So, you go from curious to maybe there’s something to this, to a completely sold-out disciple. The Holy Spirit did that. And we want to be a church that lets the Holy Spirit get you to abandoning what you think about other people and even dying to yourself, to such a service of Jesus, where you’re willing to–you’re sold. You’re sold. So yes, they will be welcome. And what we’d love most for you is to hear the gospel preached and to share your life with the community that we’re trying to build.
GT 11:18 How about gay clergy?
Kyle 11:20 Gay clergy, so…
GT 11:22 Because the formerly United Methodist Church, aren’t they splitting over that issue of gay clergy? I think they are.
Kyle 11:29 That’s the big issue. Yeah.
Kyle 11:31 And they, I think probably what they didn’t anticipate was the pooling of power in that denomination has shifted to the global South, where there’s more conservative bishops and things like that. And I don’t think, maybe, they anticipated that. But, again, broader evangelicalism, you’ve got the yes and the no. For various reasons at our church, we would say no, because the ideal sexual ethic is a man and a woman, or singleness that’s chaste. And again, we don’t believe you’re…
GT 12:09 Well, it’s chaste if you’re married. Right?
Kyle 12:11 Yes, but we don’t believe your sexuality is your identity. That’s secondary. And anybody, even if you’re heterosexual, that primarily sees themselves as heterosexual or gay or lesbian, that’s telling me you’ve got prioritizations caddywhompus? Like, does God primarily see me as a heterosexual man? Does he primarily see somebody is a gay man or a lesbian woman? Or does he primarily see a being that’s bearing his image? And so, we’re constantly trying to get the priorities back to where we believe the Bible is saying you’re properly ordered, and then strive for them as hard as possible. So long story short, no, because we believe that ideal for pastoral leadership is heterosexual, because it’s reflecting Genesis One.
GT 13:15 Would you officiate at a gay wedding?
Kyle 13:17 I would not. I would not.
GT 13:25 So knowing this, would a gay couple feel comfortable going to your church?
Kyle 13:28 Probably not. Probably not. And I don’t blame them, but I’m also not dismissing them or discounting them. That’s not a litmus test for my love for you. And it’s certainly not a litmus test for my respect for you. And I hope it would be the same the other way around. And I’ll be frank. The rejection hurts. And I don’t want anyone to hear that I don’t see it or sense it or even care about that kind of rejection. It’s just that when I’m reading scripture, God has created us in such a way that He desires a blessing to be found in us pursuing the ideals for what it means to be a man and a woman. And I want to encourage anybody I possibly can to strike after those ideals, not because you’re going get some kind of reward, but that there’s a blessing in that.
Kyle 13:44 So, at the end of the day, you must love your neighbor as yourself. And that’s really hard for both sides to hear. So, I’ll say this, if you’re or a gay or lesbian man or a woman or transgender, and I feel the disappointment or even the tension, please love me like you love yourself. Because that’s my default mode towards you: to love you as I love myself. And I think if people could do that, you would be able to withstand the disappointment that comes from disagreement. And I think there’s actually going to be a really deeper level of something in the dialogues, that helps us overcome anger, and isolation.
GT 14:42 I appreciate you answering these questions, because my reason for asking them is, we’re struggling in our church. And I want to find out if you’re struggling in your church, and it sounds like you are.
Kyle 15:53 Yes. So again, Y’all used to be in a bubble, until the railroad came. You’re not anymore, and we’ve never been in a bubble. So, I actually think (I’ll say it.) I think Latter-day Saints and evangelicals should get together to have more conversations like this to compare notes.
GT 16:18 We should.
Kyle 16:19 And to learn with each other, and not in isolation against each other. Evangelicals listening to this, some of them, they’re probably done with me. That’s okay.
GT 16:33 Those liberal evangelicals… {in jest} But there’s not any of those, are there? {Chuckling}
Kyle 16:37 There are liberal and very conservative.
GT 16:41 When I think of evangelical, I’ll admit, the synonym is conservative, it’s not liberal.
Kyle 16:48 No, there’s liberal evangelicals. Because there’s more conservative evangelicals than not, the conservative evangelicals have the microphone.
Kyle 16:55 Right. And they’re gatekeeping the definition.
GT 16:57 Right.
Kyle 16:58 That’s why you probably convict. Look, I’m writing that book. And I’m talking about like the relationship with evangelicals and the Latter-day Saints.
GT 17:07 We’re going to have you back on when that comes out.
Kyle 17:11 One of the analogies I use is, I go through how have we treated each other, worked with each other or not worked with each other in the past? I get to the point of like, look, we’re wrestling, not as institutions, because we’re not institutions. We’ll say tribes or people with the exact same issues.
GT 17:29 Well, SBC, Southern Baptist Convention is an institution. Couldn’t you say that?
Kyle 17:34 Kind of.
GT 17:35 I mean, I know you’re not really part of that, but you were trained in it.
Kyle 17:38 What I’m saying is evangelicalism broadly is wrestling with these. Y’all are, too. And it’s because culture is changing. And change is not necessarily a bad thing. Our culture has changed from the 1950s, in many ways, for the very good, very good. I think it’s changed in many ways for very, very bad reasons. Right? So, a very good change from the 1950s is the promotion or respect of women and blacks in public. Very bad: Aesthetically, we’re becoming ridiculous. We don’t have any taste anymore for what is true and beautiful and good. I hate modern art. Our entertainment is just flat and boring, and rogue. We’re not imaginative anymore.
GT 18:36 Haven’t we been saying that since Socrates?
Kyle 18:38 Yeah, so maybe it’s because I’m growing old and curmudgeonly. But culture is changing. The analogy is this. There’s a phenomenon–you wouldn’t know, because you’re a Latter-day Saint. But when you make tea, there’s a phenomenon when you spin the tea in heated hot water, that you would think why the force, the leaves would be driven to the outside, but they’re not. They actually consolidate to the bottom together. And so far in this giant tea cup of our culture, and it’s being spun around, and all of us feel disoriented. No matter who you are, liberal or conservative, we all feel disoriented. The tea leaves should be consolidating to the center to meet one another. We’re not doing that. We’re going against what is natural. We’re fighting against what is natural, because we want to maintain boundaries. I’m not saying boundary maintenance is wrong. I’m a Trinitarian. I love the Nicene Creed. We’re going to disagree on that pretty strongly. But to the expense of loving your neighbor? Nope, that’s going against the created order. And that’s pushing against what is right. And so, yeah, I think we should be getting together more often. I think we should be thinking through ethical, moral issues from a theological or institutional perspective. I think the voices should include everybody. I think they should be from all sides of the perspective. And I think if it could happen, the sole reason for that kind of a meeting would be to champion or to glorify Christ. And I know that’s a hard thing to do. But the only way you’re ever going to love your neighbor as yourself is what’s part A of the two parts there, and to love the Lord your God with all of your heart, soul, mind and strength. And so, if he’s the object, and cultural change is the subject, I wonder what kind of benefits we would be blessed in that?
GT 18:57 Very good.
Southern Baptists & Race
GT 18:58 Can I ask you one more hot button issue?
Kyle 20:52 Why not?
GT 20:54 So, of course race has been a big issue in the LDS Church. It’s been a big issue with the Southern Baptists. They split over the issue of slavery, right?
Kyle 21:05 They did.
GT 21:06 Can you can you give us a brief history of why the Southern Baptists broke off from, do we call them northern Baptist or just Baptists? Give us a brief history.
Kyle 21:18 Yeah. So, I’ll say, I’ll give the caveat, I’m not an SBC spokesperson. I don’t officially represent them. So, this is just me. The issue, historically, in the split in 1845, occurred over the…
GT 21:34 That was a year after Joseph Smith died, by the way.
Kyle 21:36 Yeah. So, for the contextualization here, and James Strang had only been a prophet for a year.
Kyle 21:43 The issue split the largest Baptist denomination in the United States, because there were others, right? But it split it between Northern and Southern Baptists over the issue of whether or not missionaries who owned slaves could receive support from what today is called the cooperative program. So, all of the churches pooling money together. The churches in the south, not all of them, but the majority didn’t like that churches in the north, not all of them, but the majority said, “If you own slaves, you shouldn’t get missionary support.” They couldn’t come to an agreement. And so, the convention split. And that split exists to this day.
GT 22:25 Which is what the United Methodists are doing over the gay issue, right?
Kyle 22:30 Correct. Yeah, in a rough analogy. I’m sure there’s, you don’t–it’s not always, like I want to be kind to everybody. So, yeah, a lot of the institutions you’re familiar with that are Baptist Theological institutions, including my alma mater, Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, were either founded by or were established after the 1845 split. So, there is a deep history of racism, that motivated very large decisions that affected unity in Baptist circles.
Kyle 23:10 Baptists weren’t the only ones. Right? You’re having similar issues in Methodism, because the Methodist churches in the south followed suit. Presbyterianism, Congregationalism to a certain extent, there were a lot of issues…
GT 23:25 As far as slavery is concerned, is that what you’re saying?
Kyle 23:27 Slavery or racism, especially after the Civil War, you’ve got segregation. I don’t know a congregation that was spared from that. Maybe the kind of modern onesie, two-sie congregations that are, what at their time had been seen as progressive and liberal. They’re like, no, we’re just trying to take revelation seriously, when he says that all people, tribes and tongues and nations are worshipping together in the kingdom, which is the right answer. So, yeah, there’s a lot of that in history. What do you do about it? One of the things that Southern Seminary has done, in recent years, was by commission of the current president, to take a look. Let’s open the closets and see how many skeletons are in there. They commissioned some of the historians that are part of the faculty, to give them a report. What’s our history of us, as an institution, in a relationship with blacks? What does this look like? And I think it was something like 70 pages that they cranked out and told the story from the founders of the institution to, I don’t know when it came out, like 2016 or 2017. I don’t remember. And I think one of the things that came out of that was essentially a scholarship fund for blacks that that want to attend the school. So, there’s recognition and there’s acknowledgement. In fact, in the 1990s, I think the SBC had a resolution of officially apologizing for slavery, if I’m not mistaken. Your viewers can look that up and correct me if I’m wrong. Man, things like that have been so poisoned by political machinations or however you say it, workings. That’s why I–I said in your last episode, I consider myself an evangelical theologically, not politically.
GT 23:53 Which is why I’m asking you all these questions, because they’re kind of political, but kind of religious as well.
Kyle 25:33 But you’re, I mean, the obvious thing that you’re seeing in this interview is, your theology affects your politics. Man, do I hate politics. Because it just poisons your theology. And so, I don’t know. I would love to see more of that type of thing. Let’s look into our past and see what’s there. And for newer institutions not to be like, “Well, we were founded in 2009. So, we don’t have any problems with that.” It’s like, okay. Yeah. So, okay, that’s big evangelicalism, that’s the history. What’s the issue of race at our church? All races are welcome. I hope that’s very patently clear. And we love people of all skin color. We live in a very…
GT 26:26 I think you have a problem that’s very similar in Utah, though, in that, because we’re very white here in Utah.
Kyle 26:34 We’re super white in our church. And there’s a lot of reasons for that. Maybe you could guess by my accent, I’m not actually from Mobile, but Mobile is home now. And I consider myself Mobilian. I just like a lot of Chicago sports teams for some time and some pizza.
GT 26:55 I just want you to know, Michael Jordan did push off on Bryon Russell.
Kyle 26:59 All right, Utah Jazz fan! And that’s the real reason you shouldn’t like me, not because I’m evangelical.
GT 27:09 {Chuckling}
Kyle 27:09 Yeah, Mobile is a very racially segregated city to this day. And there’s obvious reasons for that. And as I’ve learned living there, there’s actually unobvious reasons, too. So, the obvious reasons are racism. I’ve sensed it. I’ve been around it. I’ve seen it. Our history, Mobile’s history is really sad when it comes to oppression in slavery, of black people. Mobile was a slave trading port, a smaller one, but pretty much the only other option you had on the Gulf Coast, except for New Orleans. So, the docks of our downtown, people were purchased and enslaved. Mobile has the unfortunate title of being the city to have the last slave running ship deliver people against their will from Africa. And it was actually recently discovered by one of our local universities, it’s called the Clotilda. And there’s a documentary on Netflix [that] I highly recommend. And there’s a book called Cudjo Lewis. No. Oh, my goodness. I can’t remember the name. But it was, the book is about a man named Cudjo Lewis. I’ll think of it later, who was the last survivor of that ship. He lived all the way until the 1920s and 30s. And so, it’s an interview of his experience. It’s incredible. It’s pretty much the last interview of a slave. What was your experience like? It’s as close as you’re going to get to understanding that experience. So, Cudjo Lewis was his name. Barracoon is the name of the book. And I think we’re the last, the most recent lynching, it was the 1980s. I’m pretty sure I was born. And we have extreme poverty in the city, as well. So that’s all the obvious reasons [that] I think that there’s segregation. [There are] unobvious reasons, too. I’ve met black pastors that are really proud of the black church heritage. And they want to sustain that. They feel like they have a legacy to continue. We have Mardi Gras. We’re actually the home of Mardi Gras, not New Orleans.
GT 27:12 Really? I’ve been to New Orleans for Mardi Gras. I never thought to go to Mobile.
Kyle 27:41 Mobile was celebrating Mardi Gras, at least 10 years before New Orleans was ever discovered. Yeah.
GT 27:54 But they don’t have a Superdome there for a Super Bowl.
Kyle 28:25 No, we sure don’t. We have a convention center that’s falling apart. We have Mardi Gras and there are crews, so that’s the groups of people that get together to have the floats and stuff like that. Some of those crews are still segregated, to this day. And some of the black crews want it that way. And they don’t want white people on their crews. So, part of it as a physical segregation. You know where the black and white parts of the city are. But, actually, there’s also this kind of segregation in the city where it’s relational and social, not so much where you’re located. So, there’s like a really super white part of the city. And there’s a super black part of the city. But then, everybody, we’re pretty mixed, other than that, it’s just that we don’t interact with each other. I’m speaking we as a white man, in Mobile. I have interactions with black people all the time. But there’s not the kind of integration that you would expect there to be after blacks and whites living in the same area for 300 years. So, we have that issue in our city, and it reflects on our church. Our church is super white. And it’s a problem. But again, the principle here at play is you’re an image bearer of God. I love you. And I want you to grow in Christ. How can I help make that happen? Let me know how I can help make that happen. And we’ll do what we can.
Kyle’s Upcoming Book on Mormonism
GT 31:39 Very good. Did we miss anything?
Kyle 31:44 Elon Musk buying Twitter is super controversial. We should have talked about that.
GT 31:47 {Chuckling} Why don’t you get–so you’ve got a book coming out? Do you know when?
Kyle 31:55 I just got an extension on the contract that they gave me. I didn’t even ask for it. It’s the weirdest thing ever. So, I will turn the manuscript in to the general editor this winter. Forty Questions About Mormonism. It’s an introduction to Mormonism for an evangelical audience. I know exactly what that sounds like. I would ask you just please give it a chance. It’s produced by Kregel Academic, and it should be out in 2024.
GT 32:23 Well, if it’s like you, it should be a great book.
Kyle 32:26 I wrote it.
GT 32:30 It will be better than most of the other garbage we’re used to.
Kyle 32:33 That’s what I’m going for, hoping for.
GT 32:37 Cool, well, I’ll have at least 40 questions for you.
Kyle 32:42 Neatly organized.
GT 32:43 So you got an extension? Any idea when it’ll be out?
Kyle 32:46 [It’ll be out in] 2024.
GT 32:48 And who’s the publisher?
Kyle 32:50 Kregel Academic.
GT 32:51 Kregel, okay.
Kyle 32:52 So, it’s an evangelical publisher in Grand Rapids, with the rest of them.
GT 32:56 Oh, okay. Is that…
Kyle 32:58 Eerdmans, Zondervan, there’s a bunch there.
GT 33:01 Kristin Du Mez. She’s up in Grand Rapids. Have you read her Jesus and John Wayne?[2]
GT 33:05 Is she in Grand Rapids? Oh, yeah. Calvin Theological. Seminary.
GT 33:12 That’s right.
Kyle 33:12 Right, yes. I forgot.
GT 33:15 Have you read that book?
Kyle 33:16 Yeah.
GT 33:16 That is a fantastic book. She’s coming out with a sequel that’s going to include Mormons. I asked her to come on Gospel Tangents and Kristin, you should still come on. But we might have to plan a trip to Beaver Island. And we’ll stop and see Kristin.
Kyle 33:32 And stop off in Grand Rapids. Grand Rapids is an evangelical powerhouse. That’s where most [publishers] are. So like, Downers Grove in Wheaton, Illinois, and Grand Rapids, Michigan is where–I’m probably being generous here. Like, 90% of all evangelical books come out of those two areas.
GT 33:51 {Chuckling} I didn’t know that. That’s funny that she’s right there. I asked her to come on. And she’s like, “Well, wait till my next book comes out.” I’m like, “I don’t want to wait. I’ll have you on twice. It’s okay.”
Kyle 34:04 She’s going to put Latter-day Saints in there, the same topic.
GT 34:08 It sounds similar. Yeah. I’m not exactly sure. But yeah, that’s a great book. If you guys haven’t read Jesus and John Wayne, you need to read that. And Kyle, do you have any other books out?
Kyle 34:19 I actually do. So I wrote a book called Apatheism.[3] It’s totally random and may be new, but it’s about indifference to belief in God. But as one of our cultural changes is, people aren’t so much hostile to the idea of God, like Richard Dawkins or Daniel Dennett, as they are indifferent or apathetic to God. So that book is meant for the lay level. It’s not very academic, but it’s kind of like, “Hey, how did we get here? And if you are a believer, what do you do with it?” Like, how do you talk to a person that–because if you’re a believer, you find God so important to your life. It’s a bit shocking when your neighbor doesn’t. And you want them to know the joy and blessing that you have in that spiritual religious belief in the gospel. So, what do you do? So, Apatheism, it’s a made-up word. I’m going crazy here.
GT 35:21 Any other books?
Kyle 35:22 I’ve got a bunch of papers and stuff.
GT 35:24 Are you going to be at BOMSA in the fall?
Kyle 35:27 BOMSA in the fall.
GT 35:28 So, come to Logan if you want to meet Kyle.
Kyle 35:30 I’ll be at Rochester, MHA. I’ll be presenting on the First Vision.
GT 35:35 And then JWHA.
Kyle 35:38 I won’t be at JWHA.
GT 35:39 Oh, you’re not coming?
Kyle 35:40 Gee, I can’t come to three conferences in one year. So, I had to ax one of them. But I’ve got the paper, an article coming out in John Whitmer’s Journal, this spring.[4]
GT 35:59 What’s the paper about?
Kyle 36:00 So, you want to know more about it, you can listen to a previous episode, but it was on a woman named Eunice Kinney and her life.[5]
GT 36:08 That’s right.
Kyle 36:08 Her life of being an ardent polygamist.
GT 36:10 Yeah, we talked about that last time.
Kyle 36:12 Her story is going to be out.
GT 36:13 That’s still not out?
Kyle 36:14 In the spring.
GT 36:16 There’s too much snow outside. But spring is on the way.
Kyle 36:19 Yeah, well, it’s spring for us. It was 80 degrees when we left last week on the Gulf Coast.
GT 36:24 Yeah. Oh, cool. All right. Anything else?
Kyle 36:29 I sincerely appreciate being able to do this. I know it’s dangerous inviting an evangelical into a predominantly Latter-day Saints space. But I always feel welcome.
GT 36:45 Well, I threw some landmines your way this time. {Chuckling}
Kyle 36:50 I don’t care that you ask me to go through that field with you. Yeah, I genuinely enjoy these conversations.
GT 36:58 Well, I do, too, Kyle. And you know, Chris Thomas[6] is my favorite Pentecostal preacher. You’re my favorite Baptist preacher. I’m trying to remember, Jeff McCullough. He’s a…
Kyle 37:09 He’s a CME Missionary Alliance.
GT 37:12 Is that what he is?
Kyle 37:13 I believe so, I’m sorry. And he calls himself an evangelical mutt. So, Jeff, you’re my favorite evangelical mutt, for lack of a better word. So, Dr. Kyle Beshears, I know you don’t like to be called doctor. But I like to know that you’ve been rigorous, and you’ve got a Ph.D. in something. Tell us what it is, again.
Kyle 37:35 It is religion. But the dissertation is on Strang studies.
GT 37:38 Yeah, I’m super impressed. I know how hard it was to get a master’s degree and the Ph.D. has got to be even tougher. So, I’m impressed. And I just want to thank you so much for being here on Gospel Tangents.
Kyle 37:51 Yeah.
GT 37:51 I look forward to seeing you in October and in June at MHA. And Whitmer is in September in San Antonio, just for those of you who need to be there.
Kyle 38:05 Fredericksburg.
GT 38:06 Yeah. And so, thanks again for being here on Gospel Tangents.
[1] Joseph Smith is reported to have said the Song of Solomon was not inspired scripture.
[2] Can be purchased at https://amzn.to/3PQqf9V
[3] Can be purchased at https://amzn.to/3sBsxDz
[4] Can be purchased at https://amzn.to/3rgJbYw
[5] See https://gospeltangents.com/2023/02/19th-c-cross-dressing-polygamist/
[6] See https://gospeltangents.com/people/chris-thomas/
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