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Automatic Writing/Bill Davis’s Visions of Seer Stone

We’re continuing our conversation with Dr. Brian Hales on Book of Mormon authorship.  What are some naturalistic explanations are there to explain how Joseph Smith could have written the Book of Mormon? Brian will tackle a few more theories, such as automatic writing, as well as Bill Davis recent book, “Visions in a Seer Stone.”  Are those good explanations?

Brian:  The fourth theory is really interesting. We call it the automatic writing theory. Now, automatic writing, there’s actually two flavors. Psychologists, particularly around 1920, were doing experimenting where they would take a person and what the psychologist wants to do is find things that are in a person’s unconscious. They’ve been stuffed there because they’re too hard to deal with by the individual. And if you can get them out carefully and talk about them, you can increase a person’s mental health. They’ll feel better, less anxiety and things. So, they want to get stuff out of the unconscious part of their brain. They would isolate their arms and get them kind of really relaxed, and then their arm would just spontaneously write. That’s automatic writing. That’s the most clinical version. Then, the words that are written would be used in therapy to try to help the person with things that have been stuffed into their unconscious mind.

Brian:  The next one is a storyteller theory. I have an article coming out in Interpreter that compares Joseph Smith to professional storytellers. Now, they can tell stories day after day after day, or one big, long story that could take five or six days to put together. To make a long story short, Rick, all they’re doing is memorizing formulas that are sentences with words that can be plugged in here and there. So, they memorize these and as the story goes along, they just have to plug in a word here or a word there. The rest of it’s all memorized and comes out very much as a routine for them. They’re called formula patterns, formula systems. When you write down or make a transcript of the stories that are told this way, you can see the pattern right there in the text. We look at the Book of Mormon, there are no patterns like that. I mean, there’s chiasmus and things, but the whole book isn’t out of a chiasm. And honestly, trying to create a chiasm in real time, doesn’t necessarily make it easier, I think it makes it more difficult. So, the storytelling theory hasn’t gotten a lot of traction. Bill Davis mentioned it in his Ph.D. dissertation. I mention Bill Davis because he wrote the book of Visions in a Seer Stone.

GT:  Right.

Brian:  I admire what Bill is trying to do.

GT:  Well, I was going to ask, is this pattern the same thing as laying down heads that Bill mentions in his book or is it different?

Brian:  Well, it’s interesting.  Bill is trying to give us an explanation of what’s going on in Joseph’s head. While he’s dictating the stream of words that become the Book of Mormon. Nobody else has done this. My friend, Dan Vogel, has published this 715-page biography.[1] He never once tries to tell us how Joseph was able to create all of these final draft sentences. He just assumed Joseph could do it. Bill is trying to go in and explain what is going on cognitively and what kind of thoughts Joseph was having, as he’s dictating. I admire Bill for that. In fact, in his Ph.D. dissertation, he gives us a couple of views because he does talk about professional storytellers right at the end of his book briefly, but the primary theory that he promotes—I’m sorry, in his Ph.D. dissertation. He briefly mentions professional storytellers. But, in his book, Visions in a Seer Stone, he focuses on an idea that laying down heads is how professionals, revivalist preachers, were able to tell their very long, two hour, if you will, sermons, but then they could come back the next day and give a two hour sermon and give another one, and they’re doing it by laying down heads. You know what that means, but it…

GT:  Yeah, I’ve read some of Bill’s book. The idea here, I think, is you kind of have a little bit of an outline, and then the preacher refers back to that outline.  Each of those points is called a head, and then he can just expound on a certain head until he gets to the next one, and then he follows. I know Bill, at least from what I’ve read, I’m about halfway through Bill’s book, said, basically, a lot of preachers did this. Also, with the Book of Mormon, if you look at the introduction, the original 1830 version, not our version, but it would give a summary of what was going to happen next. So, that summary was an outline that Joseph Smith followed. Am I saying that right?

Brian:  Yeah.  I think Bill brings up a pretty good point, except that he also insists in his book that this process was something that didn’t really exist until the 19th century. In a response that I wrote, a book review, it was published in Interpreter, I just went through and showed how Josephus did this. Aristotle talked about having a summary statement, and then going into the details after, which would be laying down a head and then going through. This is something that’s as old as oratory, and writing, as near as I could tell. It’s not an area of my expertise, but I just picked up my book of Josephus and then found the originals, the earliest versions of this. People were using heads anytime people were writing. Not everybody used them, but somebody would saying that it’s good to tell people what you’re going to tell them, and then you tell them, and then sometimes you go back and tell them what you told them. I mean, it’s just common oratory. So, I don’t think that’s a real strong argument. But, the real problem with this, and I call this the oral performance theory. It’s the idea that Joseph just became a really good orator, a really good revivalist preacher, kind of guy. Then he used those skills to produce the stream of words. The problem with this is that the revivalist preachers that could do that weren’t 23-year-old farmers. These were people who were well-seasoned. They’d been preaching on the circuit for a long time. They had immersed themselves in the material. They had nearly memorized the Bible, neither of which we can show Joseph having done, if we go to the historical record, and then having practiced for many times, they’re able to get up and just speak using the skills that a very well-established orator would use. We just can’t find that Joseph Smith had those skills. For that reason, this really, I don’t think, is a very strong argument. Whether somebody could just use those skills to create a 270,000-word book at all, is not something that’s been shown. But, even on a daily basis, it’s hard to say. Joseph wasn’t known to have even preached a single sermon prior to the Church being organized. This is not somebody who’s practicing in front of an audience, either using storytelling skills, or oratory skills.

GT:  I’m just reminded of my interview with Michael Quinn. He said that, especially, Sidney Rigdon, was a much more eloquent speaker, especially in the early Church, than Joseph was and a lot of people have said that Joseph’s sermons were pathetic.

[1] The book is called “Making of a Prophet” and can be purchased at https://amzn.to/3wLDFec

What do you think of Bill Davis’ theory about laying down heads?  Do you agree with Brian or Bill?  Check out our conversation….

Brian Hales tackles Bill Davis’ “Visions in a Seer Stone” to explain Book of Mormon origins.

Don’t miss our previous conversations with Brian!

573: Looking at Spaulding & Collaborator Theories (Hales)

572: Reviewing Polygamy Criticisms

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Jailed Before Joined (Part 1 of 8)

W.W. Phelps is one of the best known leaders in early Mormon history that wasn’t an apostle.  Dr. Bruce Van Orden is the author of We’ll Sing and We’ll Shout, a biography of WW Phelps.  I knew that Phelps was a newspaper editor prior to joining the Church, but I was surprised to learn that he was arrested and jailed before he was even baptized due to his friendliness to the Book of Mormon.  Bruce will tell us more.

Bruce:  [Phelps] got interested in the Book of Mormon, as he heard about it. He lived in Canandaigua. His newspaper was the Ontario Phoenix and Canandaigua was only 12 miles away from Palmyra. All the newspaper editors knew each other, and he knew of what was happening in Palmyra and he knew about the Book of Mormon. He went and obtained several copies of the Book of Mormon, and sold some of them in his bookstore of his printing office. He had gotten so interested in it, and went about the vicinity, inquiring more about the background of Joseph Smith and the origins of the Book of Mormon. Because of that, businessmen who were supporting his newspaper got annoyed, and they took out charges against at W.W. Phelps, for indebtedness. [At that time,] still in the state of New York, a person could be jailed for indebtedness, and he was jailed for 30 days. He ended up writing to various newspapers in upstate New York about his plight and that exposed what was going on and so he was let out. But, he decided at that point, he had already been converted in his heart to the Book of Mormon, and he decided at that point that he would resign his editorship, which was a major undertaking. And then [he would] go to Kirtland where he knew the Latter-day Saints had began to gather and [he would] say, “I’m with you. I’m here to do God’s will. Use me as you will.”

GT:  It’s surprising to me that, that he was jailed even before he became Mormon. I guess we can still use that term, right?

Bruce:  [Yes, we can use that term,] because he used it and Joseph Smith used it. They refer to the movement as Mormonism. W.W. Phelps was the main writer and he used the term all the time. So you bet I’m going to use Mormon and Mormonism.

Phelps was part of some of the most important events in early Mormonism.  Check out our conversation….

WW Phelps was jailed because he was friendly to Mormons, and then decided to join the Church.
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*Further Thoughts on Malay Theory (Part 6 of 6)

We got acquainted with the Malay Theory last time, and we’re going to continue on with KC Kern and Greg Pavone to find out some other considerations.  What are some things that really add strength to the Malay Theory?

GT:  I mentioned Simcha Jakobovici, which is a horrible name to spell, in relation to the Jesus Tomb. He has another film.  He’s a documentarian. He says, “Where are the last 10 tribes now?”[1]  Simcha is really interesting in the fact that he’s kind of an atheist Jew. He doesn’t believe in Judaism or Jesus or anything. So, it’s interesting that he’s finding the Jesus tomb. It’s interesting that he’s following the lost 10 tribes. But I was watching this one time, and I called Ralph the next day. Because Simcha tries to identify where the last 10 tribes have gone. One place was Afghanistan. Another place was in Africa, I think that was the tribe of Dan.  They’ve actually done some genetic testing on that, that may have confirmed that. But a third place was the Malay Peninsula. I was like, “You’re kidding me.”

Simcha:  In a tomato packing plant near the Gaza Strip, I came across a small group that most Israelis take for Thai guest workers. They are a people who come from the hill country, on the India-Burma border. They say they are descendants of the Lost tribe of Manasseh. There is at least one Rabbi here who believes them.

GT:  I don’t know how reputable he is, but he actually said it was Manasseh that went to Malay.

Simcha:  The hill country where Burma meets India is home to the people called Menmaseh, or Manasseh, who now claiming descent from the lost tribe of Manasseh.

GT:  I was like, “Are you kidding me?” I called Ralph the next morning. I’m like, “Oh my gosh, you’ve got to see this.”  I don’t think that’s been confirmed genetically, so, I don’t know.

KC:  Just about the dispersion aspect, there’s—the idea would be that that the Lehites would have left from the Arabian Peninsula and  followed the coast going down. There actually was a ship captain, I want to say part of Alexander the Great’s fleet, that actually did do that trip.  There are some pockets of the population that claim descendency from Macedonia and Greece and stuff like that from that trip. So, the idea is that there’s a whole lot of possibility of making that trip and that distance from Arabia or from the Middle East to Southeast Asia. That’s not out of the question at all. The other thing I should note, is for anybody that really has hung their hat on the Mesoamerican theory, if you watch the Journey of Faith documentary that talks about the trip out, John Sorenson actually  walks through what he supposes the trip from the Arabian Peninsula to the west coast of Central America would have looked like. He says just realistically, the text says many days. You can’t get much out of that. But, if they’re really on a boat, they’re probably following the coastline and stopping for water and stopping for food along the way. Well, John Sorenson draws this map through, along the coast and  down the coast of India and then up, and then you run into the Malay Peninsula.  He  has them going along the side on the west side, and then through and then into the Pacific. What that means is that even if you don’t put any stock into the Malay theory at all, and you’re more of, “this is definitely Central America,” you have to acknowledge that Lehi and Nephi set foot on the Malay Peninsula, and stayed there at least for a pitstop. Let that sink in.  Everyone that believes in the Book of Mormon, that that [the Lehites] came across the Pacific, believes that the Lehites were in Malaysia at one point. How do we know they didn’t stay?

[1] The film is titled “Quest for the Lost Tribes” and can be purchased at https://amzn.to/3xhBsal

Obviously, we’re not going to explain all the answers, but you’re definitely going to want to check out our conversation…. But it’s only available to newsletter subscribers, so sign up at https://GospelTangents.com/newsletter to hear the conclusion!

Did a group of Jews migrate to the Malay Peninsula around the time of Lehi?

And don’t miss our previous conversations with KC and Greg.

542: Intro to Malay Hypothesis

541: Clearing Out the Mormon Cave

540: Finding the Mormon Cave

539: History of Mormon Cave

538: Raiders of the Lost Mormon Cave