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Ervil LeBaron: Polygamist, Assassin

We’re continuing our discussion with polygamy expert Anne Wilde. We’ll talk about the infamous Ervil LeBaron: a polygamist and an assassin.  He was responsible of the deaths not only of his own brother, but other leaders such as the Apostolic United Brethren’s Rulon Allred.

Anne:  He is responsible for killing or the death of about 20 people, and I know that because I knew some of them.  Ogden[1] was introduced to him one time under a fictitious name and so we went out to a meeting and thought this was this guy’s name, Stilson, and lo and behold shortly after that we saw a picture, “Wanted: Ervil LeBaron” but was a picture of this guy that we had met.  He even stayed in my home under that other name.  Then when I found out who he was, I was a little concerned, but fortunately I didn’t know who he was at the time he stayed in my home.

[1] Anne was the second wife of polygamist Ogden Kraut.

Before we get to that,  She’s a polygamy expert, and we’re going to talk more about some of the smaller polygamist groups, such as the Kingston group and Harmston group.

GT:  Would it be safe to say that the AUB is probably the biggest group now?

Anne:  It is.

GT:  It’s probably about 7500.

Anne:  It’s the biggest one that’s in unity or in one name or whatever….  Don’t forget the independents!  That’s what I am.  I consider myself an independent fundamentalist Mormon and that’s because I do not belong to any other organized groups.  There’s about 12-15000, but they aren’t a group.

GT:  Oh so they’re the biggest.

Anne:  But they aren’t a group.  There are a lot that believe in keeping these eternal principles alive, not just plural marriage but others as well, as best as they can amongst the families.  They just don’t feel impressed, and I don’t, to join and be baptized into any of the groups.

You might want to brush up on the AUB, FLDS & Centennial Park too.  Check out our conversation…..

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FLDS-Centennial Park Rivalry

We’re continuing our conversation with Anne Wilde.  She’s a modern-day polygamy expert.  In this next conversation we’ll talk about the FLDS Church.  Many of you are probably familiar with them and their prophet Warren Jeffs who is currently serving time in a Texas prison.  We’ll also talk about another group called Centennial Park.  These two groups:  FLDS-Centennial Park are closely related and are actually neighbors in their community.

Anne:  Centennial Park, they now have about 2,000 members, they separated from the other main [group]—they weren’t even called FLDS until after Centennial Park separated.  So that’s why they don’t like to say, “oh we separated from the FLDS,” because it wasn’t even called the FLDS at the time they separated, but technically you get the picture.

GT:  Ok, so Centennial Park really was the one that came out and FLDS separated from them?

Anne:  Well that’s what Centennial Park might say, then FLDS would say the other.  It’s whoever you’re talking to.  In other words, they separated.  Two of the members of the priesthood council in Colorado City started the priesthood council that became Centennial Park.  Many of them started a new community another mile or two south there in Arizona, and many of the Centennial Park people had homes in Colorado City/Hilldale, so they stayed there.  They are there to this day but they are considered the Centennial Park group.

Did you know there is quite some animosity between these groups?

I have no idea what the population is of the followers of Warren Jeffs or even those that live in the town.  I guess you could find out what the population is in town by talking to the mayors of Colorado City and then the mayor of Hilldale, but it’s just really in a sad state of affairs.

GT:  Ok, so just ballpark.  Do you think it’s one half of what it used to be?

Anne:  I couldn’t even begin to tell you.  I did read an article in the paper.  They interviewed one of the former members of Warren Jeffs group and she said that she felt there were more members ex-FLDS than there were followers of Warren Jeffs oe FLDS.

GT:  Have they joined with other groups like Centennial Park?

Anne:  No.  Oh no, they will not join the Centennial Park, unless it’s a very rare occasion.  Centennial Park has been there to help their teenagers.  They’ve offered their homes, opened them up if they needed a place to stay, but to followers of Warren, that’s the enemy because they broke away from, in their idea, from their priesthood so they don’t have priesthood.  They are apostates.  They consider Centennial Park, “the enemy”, whereas Centennial Park has opened up their homes if they would take advantage of it.

We’ll also talk about black polygamists.  Is there such a thing?

GT:  Ok, I’ve also heard regarding the FLDS and let’s throw the AUB in that and Centennial Park in there as well, we have the 1978 revelation of opening the priesthood to all male members of the church.  Is it true that the FLDS don’t recognize that revelation?  They still believe a lot of the old Curse of Cain, Curse of Ham doctrines?

Anne:  That’s a tough question to answer for some other group.  I can’t answer for FLDS or Allreds.  I think generally speaking, this is really general, fundamentalist Mormons do not believe that the time has come for the black race to receive the priesthood…

Don’t forget to check out our conversation about the AUB group.  Check out our conversation…..

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“There is Nothing in LDS Theology that Justifies Whacking Infants” (POX)

The November 2015 Policy is called by some the POX, or Policy of Exclusion.  The policy excludes children of gay Mormons from being blessed, baptized, or ordained in the LDS Church.  Greg Prince came to Utah back in September to discuss the science of being gay, and we talked about that in our last episode.  In our next conversation we’ll ask about theological justifications of the ban.  What does Greg Prince think about this policy?

Greg:  I think this policy has done a lot of damage, and that’s not just a supposition.  You can put real numbers behind that.  I don’t like to be in the position of explaining to the president of the seminary why my church is whacking infants.  But I didn’t explain that.  I said, “David, I don’t understand this anymore than you do.”  Because there is nothing in LDS theology that I know of that justifies whacking infants; they are pure and sin-free. We are punishing them with this policy.

We’ll also ask about the common questions:  will the LDS Church be forced to marry gay members in the LDS Temples?  What does Greg Prince think about that?

Greg:  I’m telling you it’s an empty justification.  It’s scare talk.  It has no basis in reality…. it’s a bankrupt argument.

We’ll talk a little bit about the history of marriage in the LDS Church for heterosexual couples, and I think Greg has an interesting point right at the outset that you may find interesting.

Greg:  Up until 1960s within the United States you could have a civil wedding ceremony and go to the temple the next day to be sealed.

GT:  Until the ‘60s.

Greg:  Yeah, late ‘60s.

GT:  Wow.

Why did that change?  Check out our conversation….. and tells us your thoughts about this interview!