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Remembering Shannon Flynn (Part 4 of 5)

As 2021 winds down, we’re looking back on the life of Shannon Flynn. Shannon earned a degree in history from the University of Utah. He relocated to Gilbert, Arizona where he and Robyn successfully ran a small business for nearly two decades.  He was a longtime member of the Mormon History Association and a published author.  After a three-year battle with lung cancer that eventually metastasized to his brain, Shannon Patrick Flynn passed away in his Gilbert, Arizona home on Thursday, October 28, 2021. He discusses his role with Mark Hofmann. Check out our conversation from 2016.  Please note, this conversation happened before his lung cancer diagnosis so his voice sounds normal.  The surgery on his lungs damaged a nerve to his vocal cord, so that is why he sounds so raspy in Murder Among the Mormons….

GT:  I understand that the book that I read[1] that you actually spent some time in jail.

Shannon:  That is correct.

GT:  What was that all about?

Shannon:  I was incredibly naïve, and maybe still am.  But I was incredibly naïve and unknowing and when those bombs went off especially the one with Mark, I knew him really well, better than almost anybody else did, so I thought I could be helpful.  I volunteered once or twice to go to the police station and tell what I knew and contribute some information

What I didn’t realize is the police were casting a very wide net on potential suspects and I got caught up in that net.  At one point the police in an interview told me they were going to search my house.  I said, “You’re going to find something there that’s illegal.  There’s an automatic weapon and it’s an illegal one that actually belongs to Mark but it’s in a storage unit of mine.”

I was at one point arrested for possession of an unregistered automatic firearm, that’s a federal crime under the tax code, strangely enough, and so then I spent three days in Salt Lake County Jail and then was able to get bail, and get out and then never went back.

In that process I acquired a defense attorney and I now, at the time I didn’t realize this, but he suggested strongly that I submit to a polygraph.  Now I know it’s because he wanted to know if I was telling the truth.  But it could have been helpful to have me excluded.  It didn’t exclude me for one second because the police, this was a huge deal, huge crime.  They were not coming up with lead-pipe cinch suspects very quickly, so they were just going to do what they had to do to find somebody.

That became a charge that I could be charged with though I was never charged with anything to do with the rest of it.  He suggested I do this polygraph and he knew about David Raskin, so he said, “Why don’t we do this?”  That will help exclude you so I said “Sure.”  We drove up to the University of Utah.  I sat there and was all rigged up.  It has six sensors going and all of that, $600.

GT:  You had to pay?

Shannon:  I paid.

GT:  Oh wow.

Shannon:  I paid, and I think in my attorney’s view, then he believed that I hadn’t had anything to do with it.  But like I said, the police didn’t.

GT:  The police didn’t care.

Shannon:  They didn’t care.

GT:  So the police still thought you had something to do with it?

Shannon:  Somebody, and they didn’t care who it was.

GT:  They wanted to hang somebody.

Shannon:  Oh they had to.  Lyn Jacobs was looked at carefully, I believe Brent Metcalfe was looked at somewhat.  Like I said they were casting that net as wide as they could get it.  It was still—because it all drove from the incredibility of the whole thing.  No one believed that any one person could do all of those forgeries and build those bombs, and kill those people, all of that stuff.  They just didn’t believe it.  Even if Mark did it, they didn’t believe that one person could do it.  There must be somebody else involved.

Of course they went through the normal police procedures.  They found confederates, friends, whoever, and they applied whatever pressure they could because that’s a normal investigative technique because often evidence of a crime is not really readily available. A lot of times people are convicted on witness or complicit testimony, so they were looking for somebody to say, “Oh yeah, he did it, and I was there!”  You know?

GT:  They put a lot of pressure on you.   Did they accuse you of being a co-conspirator or something?

Shannon:  They did a number of things that to this day I will never forgive them for.  Never!  This plays into a little bit why this was difficult to imagine.

Did you watch Murder Among the Mormons?  What are your thoughts?

[1] The book Salamander discusses many aspects of the Hofmann bombings and forgeries.  See http://amzn.to/2yt9OfN

Shannon Flynn was arrested but cleared in the Mark Hofmann crimes.

Here are links to our full conversation.

088: Christmas Party Plea Deal

087: Mark’s Unusual Prison Visitors

086: Would Hofmann Kill Again?

085: Should Hofmann Ever Be Released from Prison?

084: Shannon Goes to Jail for Hofmann

083: Hofmann’s Last Bomb Blew the Lid off Mormon History

082: Hoffman’s Best Fake:  Fooling the Lie Detector Test

081: Mark’s Million-Dollar Con

080: “I Cheat People.  That’s What I do for a Living.”

079: Hofmann’s Teenage Forgeries

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Looking back at 2017: Top 20 Moments

Happy New Year. I’m your host of Gospel Tangents, Rick Bennett.  We’re counting down the Top 20 Moments that were most surprising moments in 2017 here on Gospel Tangents.  I’ve learned a lot over this year.

1. Let’s start with some scoops!  Paul Reeve told me he participated in writing the Gospel Topics Essay on Race and the Priesthood at LDS.org.  Unfortunately, I had some camera problems, but the audio worked just fine.  This is still my most downloaded moment of 2017!

GT:  Very good.  Now I want to ask you another question.  I’m hoping you’ll answer.  I’ve heard rumors, and that’s all they are is rumors that you played a role in compiling that essay [Race and the Priesthood].  Do you have any response to that?

Paul laughs:  I did help with the essay. Yeah, Yeah.

GT:  So was it, can you describe your role?

Paul:  Well the Church History Department invited me to write an extended essay. It ended up being about 55 pages long with footnotes and everything like I would produce as an academic essay.  Once they were satisfied with that it was sent up the line, several layers of approval process and then the Church History Department actually boiled down that longer essay to what got posted online so I had no say over what got posted online, what eventually appeared as Race and the Priesthood, but it was a condensed version of the longer piece that I produced for them.

2.  What other scholars participated? I asked a similar question to Dr. Brian Hales regarding the polygamy essays

Brian:  Yeah, I gave them a very long essay, and then maybe a couple of years later they sent me the Gospel Topics essay that was similar to what we have today.  I went through it all.  I think we had one other meeting in the interim, maybe two.  I just went through and made recommendations on it, and every recommendation I recommended in the text they accepted.  There were some outside comments that I made some recommendations they did not, but they were very generous to allow me to do that.  They do quote from the trilogy a number of times and an article I wrote was also referenced.

GT:  So that took a few years for that whole process to go through?

Brian:  Yeah, you know originally they were thinking of doing long answer, medium answer, short answer.  That was the first thing that was asked of me on the topic of polyandry.  Then I just sent them some general stuff, and I don’t know how many iterations it went through there.  Again I was excited to contribute to that.  I only looked at the Nauvoo material.  I know they had Kathryn Daines help out, and Kathleen Flake I think also are the other two that did the input on plural marriage.  I hope they don’t mind me saying that but they wanted outsiders to critique it.

3.  That wasn’t all. Ugo Perego was involved in the Book of Mormon essay

Ugo:  Yeah I helped writing that… it wasn’t only me.  I actually took the lead on the project of writing that.  I wrote a much more extensive paper which has been published as well in the Interpreter, the online Mormon journal.  It’s about 40 pages long and then from that the Church condensed it down to what is the in Gospel Topics today.

4.  Since we’re on the Book of Mormon, we had some interesting conversations. David Rosenvall had an interesting theory on how Asian DNA ended up in America.

David:  our hypothesis is that you have at least everyone that came over with Jared and his brother who dispersed for thousands of years, and if you assume that there are some that didn’t come across the ocean who were also related to them, who may have been a big part of how Asia became, there’s a good chance that the people of North America and the people of Asia are going to have the same DNA.  The difference is they used boats to get them across and maybe the Bering Sea but at least the boats according to the Book of Mormon.  So I always say DNA is the best evidence that the Book of Mormon is true because in there is the Book of Ether that talks about a group that was in Asia and a group that’s in North America that are related.

5.  Perego didn’t necessarily agree with Rosenvall, but he noted another group of people who had disappeared from America.

Ugo:  Do you know the Vikings were in Greenland from 1000-1400 A.D., 400 years?  We have written documentation that they were here, the Icelandic woman actually kept their record of their voyages.[1]  We have villages, remains of Viking villages in Greenland that around 1400, they just left.  They just left.  We also have DNA from Native Americans in Iceland, which pre-dates Christopher Columbus, that’s been there.  So we know probably these Vikings took some women to Iceland, and that’s why we have their DNA there.  But where is the Viking DNA in America?

GT:  That’s a great question.  I have no idea.

Ugo: Well I’m sure it’s there, but there is not enough time for the post-Columbus DNA, to differentiate it from the pre-Columbus DNA.  So whenever we find European, Middle Eastern, or African DNA in the Americas, even among tribes, native tribes, by default, scientists always say, we think this is post-Columbian admixture.

6.  He also did an interesting study with regards to the Mountain Meadows Massacre that I had never heard before.

Ugo:  the U.S. government made an investigation on what happened that some of that truth came out, and it was about two years at this time.  The records said that only 17 of these 18 children were identified and returned to relatives in Arkansas.

So who was the 18th child?  What happened to this child?  Who was it?  As years went by there had been rumors that one of these children was the oldest daughter of Bishop Klingonsmith who was involved with the massacre.  He’s there.

GT:  So the daughter was essentially adopted by Bishop Klingonsmith.

Ugo:  That’s what the claim was.  The 18th child was the one that was not returned.  So it’s making something bad into something worse because now you have a child that doesn’t belong to you… So the conclusion from the paper was that probably Priscilla was the biological daughter of the Klingonsmith family, and not the surviving child.

7.  Of Course Perego worked with Brian Hales on the paternity tests with Joseph Smith. Brian had some interesting things to say with regards to polygamy.  Who was more believable:  Joseph Smith or Fanny Alger?

Brian:  the people that Joseph Smith told about Fanny Alger as a plural wife, they didn’t believe him.  But most of the people that learned it from Fanny did believe which is interesting.

8.  Anne Wilde had some interesting things to say about Jesus regarding polygamy.

When Jesus Was Married came out in [19]69, it was in February of ’69.  That was Ogden’s first book, and he knew that Joseph F. Smith was president of the Quorum of Twelve at that time.  He knew his belief that Jesus was married, so as soon as the books came out of the bindery, we took the first copy up to Joseph Fielding Smith and got right in.  The secretary was there at that time, you know you could walk right in practically and see a general authority.  The office door was open.  Here was the receptionist.  Could we give him this book?  She motioned us in.  We gave it to him and then we said, “What do you think?”

He said, “Oh, absolutely he was married.  His account of his marriage is right in the New Testament.  It could be no other way.  The account of his marriage is in the New Testament, referring to the Marriage at Cana…”  GT:  Who did he marry?

Anne:  Probably Mary.

GT:  Mary Magdalene?

Anne:  He had at least three wives.

GT:  Three wives?

Anne:  Uh huh.  Mary, Martha, and Mary Magdalene that we know of; there’s a quote that kings’ daughters were among his honorable wives.

9.  But how did polygamy originate in the LDS Church? Mark Staker has an interesting theory!

GT:  So wait a minute.  You’re telling me that Black Pete may have been responsible for introducing polygamy into the Kirtland community?

Mark:  I believe so… I believe that Black Pete introduced that idea to him.  Now is there really a step by step process to the doctrine as how that happened?  No.  It’s a circumstantial case.

10.  Dr Staker had another interesting note regarding the first black Mormon!

GT:  So is this something that you think Black Pete may have introduced the Mormons in Kirtland was speaking in tongues?

Mark: I believe he did.

GT:  Oh wow.

Mark:  I believe it’s a circumstantial case.  There’s nobody that says that but as you look at the evidence as to where it comes from and these early attempts to practice it

11.  In talking about early black Mormon, Margaret Young surprised me with this concerning Jane Manning James!

Margaret:  Jane had been raped by a minister in Wilton, Connecticut, so in the first book [I wrote, One More River to Cross], I kind of identify him.  There’s pretty good evidence of who it probably was, so she had a son, Sylvester when she first came to Nauvoo and Sylvester was there with them on the trek.

12.  Moving to more modern times, Darron Smith had some interesting things to say about black athletes at BYU.

Darron:  The federal government keeps graduation data from over a six year period.  If you started this fall, 2017 in the fall, that will follow you for six years, that cohort of thousands of students all across the country will follow that cohort for six years.  You can see within that six year period at each institution the percentages of students that actually complete within that six year period and those that don’t… The lowest [black graduation rate] in the state?  I was surprised to see that, very surprised to see that.  The data, all of that data, plus the GSR scores, the story is becoming clearer.

13.  Since we’re into modern history, let’s talk about the Mark Hofmann bombings. Who did Curt Bench call when he heard about the first bombing?

Curt:  That day I talked to Mark on the phone, the day of the bombings.

GT:  Oh really.

Curt:  Several times, probably six or seven times.  I called first to warn him about the bombings, well bombing at that point because there was already a lot on the news.

14.  Shannon Flynn told how Hofmann beat the lie detector test

Shannon:  he hypnotized himself the night before the polygraph, and then again in the morning, and just told himself over and over again, “I didn’t do it, I didn’t do it, I didn’t do it,” and then describes the test being administered.  When they got to the questions:  did you cause the death of Kathleen Sheets?  Did you cause the death of Steve Christensen?

… He was able to not produce any significant physical response to that, and said that he was aware of the questions but could just let his subconscious come forward, that he had convinced, hadn’t done it.

15.  Of course, that wasn’t the only crime issue in Mormonism. Anne Wilde had a surprising encounter with a murderer!

Anne:  Ogden[2] was introduced to him one time under a fictitious name and so we went out to a meeting and thought this was this guy’s name, Stilson, and lo and behold shortly after that we saw a picture, “Wanted: Ervil LeBaron” but was a picture of this guy that we had met.  He even stayed in my home under that other name.  Then when I found out who he was, I was a little concerned, but fortunately I didn’t know who he was at the time he stayed in my home.

16.  Anne remains unaffiliated with any polygamist groups. We also discussed another Mormon group, the Remnant Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and spoke with a member of the First Presidency.  I was surprised to hear when Jim Vun Cannon joined that church!

Jim:  I started attending the Remnant Church in 2012 I believe is when I started.

GT:  Oh really, just that recently?

Jim:  Yes, that recently, yes.

GT:  Wow, and you’re in the First Presidency now!

Jim:  Yes, it was an experience where the Lord told me to go and join this church, and I was just told to go and worship with these folks and ministered with these folks and I really wasn’t told much more than that.  At the time I did not even have a testimony of President Larsen and his calling to be the prophet of the church, but that came very shortly afterwards.  I felt like it was one of those stepping out of the boat moments.  You know the water was a little squishy underneath your feet and trying to look forward, but yes, yes.

17.  In talking with Jim, I learned they would like to build a temple. But Dr. Richard Bennett told me something about our own temple worship that really surprised me!

Richard:  Spiritualism, the practice of communing with the dead, adulterated today by Ouija boards and things like this and telekinesis and paranormal, but Spiritualism is well-known in American history as flowering after the Civil War with so many dead and lost and the great desire of many families to know what happened to their sons or their fathers or their brothers…

Was that a factor in the beginning of endowments for the dead for the church in 1877?  I claim that it may have been one of the factors to begin to address how we really think about them.  There is redemption for the dead but it’s not that way.  So was it a factor?  I argue that it probably was one of the factors.

18.  Speaking of surprises, Dr. Greg Prince surprised me with this nugget on the Word of Wisdom!

Greg:  You will hear people still who say the Word of Wisdom proves Joseph was a prophet because it was a hundred years ahead of its time.  It wasn’t even a day ahead of its time.  It reflected what everybody already knew.  This was the air that they breathed.

The Temperance Movement kicked in in 1826 because there was an epidemic of drunkenness in the United States.  The consumption of distilled liquor over a 30 year period had tripled on a per capita basis.

19.  David Conley Nelson surprised me when I discovered church leaders weren’t happy with a play about a Mormon who fought against Nazis

David:  Elder Monson, he’s in the Quorum of Twelve at the time.  Elder Monson arrives and he takes in the play and he just doesn’t seem to be as happy according to other witnesses as the rest of them.  Word comes down two days later through Dallin Oaks, there will be no more productions of “Huebener Against the Reich.”

20.  What surprises are in store for 2018? How about an interview with an apostle, and what constituted the first temple recommend!  This is Lachlan MacKay, an apostle for the Community of Christ.

Lach:  My sense is that in Nauvoo, the thing that is going to be true that you did see that you start to have to have, I believe, a receipt that said you a tithe payer in order to gain access to the baptismal font, and they didn’t welcome non-members into the temple in Nauvoo while they were performing ordinances, but it was still a public building.  That receipt, I think, is what many generations later would become the idea of a temple recommend.

Thank you so much for listening.  I know 2017 was a year of surprises and I’m sure 2018 will be as well.  I’ve already lined up interviews with John Hamer, Matt Harris, Michael Quinn, Simon Southerton, Russell Stevenson, Newell Bringhurst, and Sandra Tanner.  I’m sure we will have many others, so please tune in and subscribe to our page so you don’t miss any of them.  Make sure that you Like our Facebook page at facebook.com/gospeltangents.  You can subscribe on YouTube at youtube.com/gospeltangents, Tweet us @gospeltangents.  Make sure you subscribe on iTunes to be sure you don’t miss anything.  Share as much as you can with your friends and family!

[1] Her name is Gudrid Thorbjarnardóttir.  Basic information is found at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gudrid_Thorbjarnard%C3%B3ttir

[2] Anne was the second wife of polygamist Ogden Kraut.

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Christmas Party Plea Deal

This is our last conversation with Shannon Flynn.  In this episode we’ll talk about Mark Hofmann’s lawyer, Ron Yengich.  Ron has defended some of Utah’s most notorious criminals.  We’ll talk about the plea bargain in which Ron was able to plea bargain down to second degree murder, rather than first degree murder.  How did that come about? It may have been a Christmas Party Plea Deal.  We’ll also ask, why doesn’t Mark grant interview requests?

Shannon:  I think he still harbors an idea that he will get out some day.  I believe that’s what drives most of his denials of talking to anybody, corresponding with news people or anything like that.

GT:  You think that he doesn’t want to do interviews because he wants to still get out.  Is that what you’re saying?

Shannon:  Yes.  See his attorney was Ron Yengich….

Check out our conversation…