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God in a Box or Pyramid? (Part 5 of 8)

As humans, we try to understand God, and sometimes we put him in a box.  But would a pyramid be a better idea?  Benjamin Shaffer & David Patrick of Christ’s Church share their feelings on the Adam-God theory and talk about cubes & pyramids to describe God.

Benjamin:  Open up the scriptures anywhere, including the Doctrine and Covenants, which you think would be more clear because it’s more recent, and you will find plenty of instances where–just go ahead and get yourself three highlighter colors, and try to decide exactly which member of the Godhead to speaking at any given moment. You’ll find that it’s an impossible task. They switch off in ways that are quite convoluted and confusing. Go to the Book of Mormon and read what Abinadi says in his descriptions of God, and some people say this sounds very Trinitarian.

They get rather confused. Well, wait a second, which individual do you mean? I think that this is just a wrong way of approaching the question of what is God. We’re trying to put him in a box and we’re trying to put him in this box that’s based on American individualism, where the individual is so paramount. The whole point of the Godhead, the whole point of them being one–and when we say the Father and the Son are one God, I mean, phrases like that appear in the scriptures. How can they be one if we’re constantly trying to turn them into separate individuals? So I guess what I’m trying to say is yes, we do believe that there are such things as individuals. We’re not completely rejecting that but, I think that that really breaks down when you start talking about God. I know this is an outside source, but if you if you go to Mere Christianity, C.S. Lewis talks a lot about maybe our problem is that we’re so two dimensional. Individuals are like squares, we keep thinking squares, squares squares, and that each square is separate from every other square. In order to really comprehend the Godhead, you have to recognize that there are a cube. That means that you’ve got to get away from this two dimensional thinking, where we’re so fundamentally focused on squares and how every square is separate, how every square is individual. You know what a cube is made out of six individual squares. But that doesn’t mean it isn’t one shape. It’s not. It is one thing.

GT:  So you know, that’s interesting that you said squares because I thought you were going to go with pyramid. Because in your presentation you said you represented a pyramid. Can we talk about that?

Benjamin:  Sure. So oftentimes we look at the Godhead as a triangle, right? There is plenty of Trinitarian, especially iconography. We have the Father, the Son, the Holy Ghost. It’s that triangle shape. But we’re talking about this as a hierarchy or generations of the gods, which creates this plurality of the gods situation. So instead of seeing it like a triangle, I kind of want to turn it three dimensional. When you turn a triangle three dimensional, all you see is the line. But I’m saying the Godhead isn’t a two dimensional shape. It’s a three dimensional spiral. So that as it goes down through these generations of the gods–the Godhead. Yes, you can view it as a triangle if you’re thinking two dimensionally. But if you’re thinking three dimensionally, it’s more that God’s ways are one eternal round as its described. So then there’s no problem with there being multiple generations of the gods: Elohim, Jehovah, Michael, Jesus Christ, the Holy Ghost and essentially by theory on and on, throughout eternity. Each person takes on those roles, fulfills those principles. Jesus is never called, for example, Jehovah, we like to point out. We don’t believe that the title Jehovah applied to Jesus Christ before His resurrection, but there is a reference in the Doctrine and Covenants, saying that the voice of Jehovah came saying, “Behold, I am Jesus Christ.” [This] is in the Doctrine and Covenants. But the title, Jehovah, if these are all priesthood titles can be applied to Jesus when he takes that role. So again, instead of just thinking Father, Son, Holy Ghost as a two dimensional thing, and when we think of it as this spiral, we recognize that each of these roles, each of these titles can be adopted by a different member of the Godhead at a different time.

What do you think of this explanation?  Check out our conversation…

Benjamin Shaffer and David Patrick describe the Adam-God doctrine as a three-dimensional object rather than the two-dimensional triangle of the trinity or godhead.

Don’t miss our previous conversations with David & Benjamin!

384: Documentary Hypothesis & Adam-God

383: Intro to Adam-God Theory

382: Scriptures of Christ’s Church

381: Intro to Christ’s Church

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*Surprising Sales at Seventies Bookstore (Part 6 of 6)

In our final conversation with polygamy expert Anne Wilde, Anne will discuss the surprising popularity of Ogden Kraut’s book “Jesus Was Married.”  Christ’s Church apostle David Patrick will also add his final thoughts on why this is such an important and influential book over the past 50 years.

Anne:  At BYU, the religion professors were being asked, was Jesus married? And I’m not going to mention names of the professors but there were two of them that said, “Well, you know, we’re not supposed to talk about this. We’ve been advised.” So anyway, to lay a little groundwork, the next day or two, after we took them down to the Seventies Bookstore, Brother Whitehead calls out and he says, I sold all 10 of those copies. Can you bring me 20 more? So we did, and we couldn’t figure out why. And I don’t know if Brother Whitehead knew until later. What was happening is that these religious professors found out about Ogden’s book down there and Ogden was friends with them. And so they knew the book was coming out. So what they did was they tell the students “As religion professors at BYU, we’re not supposed to say one way or the other. But there’s a book down and Seventies Bookstore if you want to go down and get that, that has the whole story. And so he sold 20 and then 50 more. And then we just kept taking them down there because of BYU students were coming down and buying. So I just thought it was kind of ironic because about the same time you know. And we have sold thousands of copies of that. It’s been an eighth printing. Its Ogden’s best-seller.

Apostle David Patrick of Christ’s Church and polygamy expert Anne Wilde reflect on the past 50 years of the book “Jesus Was Married.”

Sign up for our free newsletter and I will send you a link to the final part of our conversation with Anne and David.  Sign up at GospelTangents.com/newsletter.

Don’t miss our other episodes with David and Anne!

345:  Uniquely Mormon Marriage Theology

344:  “There is No Marriage in Heaven”

343:  Evangelical Arguments about Marriage in Heaven

342: Was Jesus the Groom at Wedding at Cana?

341: Making the Case that Jesus Was Married

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“There is No Marriage in Heaven” (Part 4 of 6)

I’m still trying to channel my inner-evangelical as we continue our conversation with David Patrick, an apostle of Christ’s Church, and polygamy expert Anne Wilde.  In 1 Corinthians it says it is better to marry than to burn, and Jesus says there is no marriage in heaven.  How do they handle those scriptures?

GT:  Paul says you should remain celibate even as I am. But if you can’t contain, okay, go ahead and get married. You know, because it’s better to marry than to burn. I mean, that doesn’t sound like a ringing endorsement of marriage.

David:  Well, Paul was married.

Anne: Yeah, I was just gonna say that.

David: Yeah. And so, that’s the only that’s the only real scripture that they can hang on to call for celibacy, I guess.

It should be noted that Christ’s Church has a temple in southern Utah, and they do proxy temple work for their kindred dead, just like LDS do.  Check out our conversation…

Jesus said there is no marriage in heaven. How do polygamy experts David Patrick & Anne Wilde deal with that scripture?