As we mentioned previously with our interview with Dr. Matt Harris, the Swedish Rescue was instrumental in leading Church leaders to release the Gospel Topics essays. Hans Mattsson was a key figure in the Swedish Rescue, and we’ll talk about his involvement in the Swedish Rescue and what he thinks about the Gospel Topics essays now.
GT: So, let me ask you this question. So the [Gospel Topics] Essays started coming out, I think it was November of 2013. If those had come out 10 years earlier? Would you still be a member of the Church?
Hans: It’s hard to answer that question, but I also know that if those papers come out that early, maybe I would have left earlier.
GT: Oh, really?
Hans: Yeah, because that would tell me that they have not been honest for so many years. They have hidden things that are now published.
According to the Gospel Topics essay, the reason why Middle Eastern DNA isn’t found among Native Americans is because the Nephite/Lamanite DNA was dwarfed by a large population. Dr. Thomas Murphy takes issue with that, but he does acknowledge that DNA can be lost.
GT: Are you saying that it is possible to lose DNA, like the Incan boy and the Vikings and Egypt?
Thomas: It’s possible for DNA lineages to go extinct. Yes.
Thomas: That’s definitely possible. It’s documented, no doubt about it. And so it’s possible for a small population to have come to the Americas, and if they did not do much interbreeding with others, and for some reason, like the Vikings ended up leaving, and it’s possible that there’s not a lot of genetic evidence of that. But the problem with that scenario is that’s not the story the Book of Mormon tells. The Book of Mormon tells a story of a population that arrives here and grows exponentially into hundreds of thousands, millions in the case of Jaredites, of people. When you have that population explosion, you’re not going to lose your genetic signature. Now, they tried to say, “Well, if they intermarried, if there was a large amount of intermarriage, it might swamp out the genetic signature. But again, as we discussed earlier, there’s not Book of Mormon evidence for that. There’s not evidence in the Book of Mormon suggesting that that actually happened. It’s theoretically possible, but then we have to stop and say–let’s suppose we look at a mitochondrial lineage that disappears, like that Incan example. Well, what about the Y chromosome? What about nuclear DNA? What about the DNA of our gut microbes? What about the DNA of the ants of the animals and plants we brought with us? So, the essay makes a big emphasis on a couple of principles of population genetics, things like gene flow, genetic drift, mutation, or, excuse me, a founder effect, and suggests that these sorts of changes in the gene pool may explain the loss of DNA. But if we look at those practices, those are largely random practices, or largely random phenomenon, that you might randomly lose, one lineage doesn’t get passed on. What we see is across the genome, of not just humans, but our gut microbes, our dogs, our other domestic animals, and what we see [is] the same story being told across that group of gene pools. If we have a random event eliminating one mitochondrial lineage, we still have our paternal heritage. We still have all of our nuclear DNA. We still have our gut microbe DNA. We still have the DNA of our domesticated plants and animals. Random events don’t affect all of those at the same time in the same way, all resulting in extinction. Does that makes sense?
What do you think of Murphy’s claims? Check out our conversation….
Don’t miss our previous conversation with Dr. Murphy!
It is well-known that Europeans wiped out many Native Americans. The Book of Mormon claims that darker skinned Lamanites killed the white-skinned Nephites. Is it possible that these genocidal killings wiped out all traces of Middle Eastern DNA among Native Americans? Dr. Thomas Murphy is here to answer that question.
Thomas: I think the settlers, long before Joseph Smith came along were developing ways of reconciling that. The ways that they were trying to reconcile that was that they said, well, the Indians around us they look like savages. But we look and we see all these monuments that–this evidence of great architecture, big mounds and evidence of sophisticated culture, couldn’t have been these Indians. It must have been an ancient white race that did this. Now, that’s convenient to suggest that, because if there was an ancient white race that created civilization in the Americas and the remnants of that civilization, then you can say, “Well, the American Indians and their ancestors must have destroyed them. They must have done what we’re doing right now.” So, it becomes a way of solace. It becomes a mythological tradition that helps settler colonists to reconcile their own violation of their own ethics.
Thomas: The essay, on one sense, blames American Indians for an ancient genocide of the Nephites that may have eliminated DNA. It also acknowledges the 16th and 17th century annihilation of most Native Americans. Now notice the timing of that 16th and 17th century. Why is that important? The 16th-17th century suggests that it was Spanish, French and Dutch, not the English. You really look at, the genocide continued in the 18th and the 19th century. Even Mormons themselves participated in it in the colonization of the Great Basin. So that destruction of native populations, kind of at its apex was around 1900. So, the 18th and 19th centuries, the essay ignores altogether. So we’re also critical of the essay for not acknowledging the English and American wrong in genocide. It really overlooks those and suggests blaming the Spanish and the French and the Dutch.
GT: And not the Americans is what you’re saying.
Thomas: Yeah, not the English and Americans who did it just as much, in fact, more so. Because the Spanish and the French–well the Spanish, their kind of colonial system was one where they incorporated indigenous peoples into an economic system at the lower rungs of society, as peasants, compasinos in Spanish. They are incorporated into the society, enslaved for sure, but incorporated into colonial society. The French had a little different perspective. The French kind of more incorporated themselves into the indigenous society and used trade and economics to their advantage but operating within an indigenous system. So, the social structure under the French was largely still indigenous. One of my mentors, Richard White, describes that as a middle ground of the French. Now the English, use a different strategy. The English, initially they were kind of incorporating, as I said earlier, bringing the kids into the homes and stuff. They were a little more like the Spanish in those initial periods, but eventually with what’s called the King Philip’s War, they adopted a different approach and that is to exterminate. They adopted a genocidal approach towards indigenous populations and wiped them out and removed them from their indigenous territories. That English approach is actually the more appropriate analogy for the Book of Mormon, than the Spanish and the French. So, Ugo just gets his history wrong, is what I’m saying.
We’ll look at a story of a 15th century Incan boy as well as some Egyptian mummies to see if DNA can disappear. We also talk about why Viking DNA doesn’t show up in Canada. Check out our conversation….
Please check out Dr. Ugo Perego’s arguments about Vikings.