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Lucy’s Dreams, Joseph Sr’s Rational Religion (Part 4 of 5)

Lucy Mack Smith had dreams that were very similar to some mentioned in the Book of Mormon.  Joseph Smith Sr., on the other hand, was much more rational with regards to religion.  What else can Dr. Mark Staker tell us about the Smith religious background, following his latest archaeological dig at the “Joseph & Lucy Smith’s Tunbridge Farm?”

GT:  I had an interview with Colby Townsend. He said that Asael got angry at Joseph, Sr. and threw a book at him. I think it was Thomas Paine’s, Age of Reason, if I remember right.

Mark:  Yeah.

GT:  Can you can you tell us a little bit more about that story?

Mark:  Well, when the Smith family moves to Vermont, there are two major ways of seeing religion. One of those is the Congregationalists…. Universalism moves into Vermont very early, about the same time the Smith family arrives up there, right there in their area. As a matter of fact, they seem to be among the earliest, if not the earliest proponents of it in their region, but it spreads far and wide. There are others who share a similar approach to religion. One of those is the leader of the Green Mountain Boys, Allen and his brother. Ira Allen, and is one of those and his brother is…

GT:  Ethan Allen.

Mark:  Yeah, thank you, Ethan. So, Ethan is the one that writes a book, but they’re very much in line with the deists.  They wouldn’t necessarily probably call themselves deists. I’ve not found in the records that they’re making that direct connection, but they believe in God, that God created them and kind of moved on and it’s not directly involved in our lives now. So, that’s important because they don’t believe in modern revelation. They don’t believe in dreams. They don’t believe in visions.  They don’t believe that angels are coming to visit, those kinds of things. Thomas Paine is very much in that same line of thinking.  Lucy mentions it in her rough draft of her family history and takes it out later, maybe because it shows kind of a negative aspect of some family contention where family throws in Thomas Paine’s book and tells Joseph, Sr. to read it. Sometimes people have questioned that saying, “Oh, well, Thomas Paine, he is a deist, or even worse. Some people will push it as he’s an atheist and how would Asael encourage his son to read that if he’s truly a religious man?” Well, I think it’s not that he’s accepting everything that Thomas Paine has to say, but he’s emphasizing the Age of Reason that we are rational, reasonable people.

Mark:  As a Universalist, they’re thinking about religion in a rational, reasonable way. The Universalists, much like deists, much like Ethan Allen and his brother, Ira Allen, who are writing and very influential in Vermont. They downplay the miraculous, the visionary world, the dreams that you have that are divine intervention and direct interaction with God. So, they even suggest that Thomas Paine does, and so does Ethan Allen, but maybe some of those stories about visions in the earlier Bible material was kind of told in a way back anciently that suggests there’s something about God that wasn’t true, and maybe he didn’t give them visions, either. It depends on how they’re wording it as to what they’re quite suggesting at the time. So, I think that what Asael is saying by that, “Read this,” is not that he’s saying that Jesus Christ is not divine, although there are some Universalists that think that, as well, but most see him as a divine in a way that he’s able to offer salvation to everybody, that the atonement is universal, and that everybody is saved. You find that later on in the dreams that Lucy shares about her husband.  She’s suggesting that Joseph has these seven dreams that are important.  If you look at them carefully, the first dreams are still Universalist. He has this dream where he’s partaking of this fruit and his family comes to protect the fruit with him. Richard Bushman suggests maybe Lucy’s projecting back, hearing the stories of Lehi and his family.

GT:  Yeah, because Lucy’s [dreams] sound a lot like the Book of Mormon, some of her dreams.

Mark:  Bushman suggests, well, maybe, you’re four decades later. She does, in lots of other parts of her history, she’s trying to suggest connections between her and Lehi and her husband and the Book of Mormon. She’s using that as a model. Whatever the dream initially was, it may have changed in her memory over 40 years, based on her continual reading in the Book of Mormon, but there must have been some elements of it that she saw as connected, something about concern for family and salvation, which allowed her to later connect those two and remember it that way.

GT:  Well, you would think his mother would be more likely to believe in the visions than the Father. Right?

Mark:  I imagine she would, in a certain kind of context. I don’t know what Joseph learned in that vision. But there were things that maybe he was unsure that both parents would accept. But I think you’re right. By the time he’s having his visions, that he’s moved fully into his mother’s camp in a lot of ways, but there are enough differences between the two, that it makes him feel like he’s unsure about sharing this with his family until he’s encouraged to do so.

Do you think Joseph was more like his mother or father religiously?  Check out our conversation….

Lucy had religious dreams, but Joseph Sr was a Universalist, which generally downplayed dreams & miracles.

Don’t miss our other conversations with Mark!

535: Smith Farmers Were Spiritual, Not Religious

534: When Joseph Met Lucy

533: Smith Family Farm in Vermont

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Smith Farmers Were Spiritual Not Religious (Part 3 of 5)

What was Joseph Smith Jr’s religious upbringing like?  It turns out his parents were quite different.  Joseph Sr, might be describes as spiritual but not religious, while Lucy was more of a visionary.  We’ll learn more about their family religion with Dr. Mark Staker.

GT:  Can you talk a little bit about the dynamics of the family? It sounds like Lucy was very spiritual, and Asael wasn’t, and influenced Joseph, Sr, as well, to be non -religious.

Mark:  They’re spiritual, but in very different ways. Lucy grows up. She’s part of that great awakening that moves up through the Connecticut River Valley. She comes from kind of the eastern side of the Green Mountains where it’s really going on. She’s involved in the revivals there in the area. We can document a lot of revivals up in Chelsea township area north of them, out in Randolph, where they ended up moving and other places, and so very much a part of their experience. Joseph goes to those with her, but apparently to appease her more than anything.  But, he’s religious, just in a different context,  The family’s Universalists.  Asael and Mary, and the children are all drawn into the Universalist doctrine to a greater or lesser extent. They are very much seen as heretics there in the area. In Randolph Township, there’s a church where they bring everybody in and they have to sign a document, saying that they’re opposed to the Universalists who have nothing to do with them.

GT:  Who signed it?

Mark:  Members of the Congregationalists.

GT:  Lucy was a congregationalist. Is that right?

Mark:  Lucy is a congregationalist.  Here in Tunbridge, the Congregationalists and the Presbyterians meet together. Out in Palmyra, they do the same thing. She eventually becomes part of the Presbyterian [church] but it’s the same thing that she’s grown up with. They have kind of a combined community. The Universalists, Asael and Mary appeared to be involved in the universals before they even come to Vermont. The gentleman that helps them move to Vermont, he’s from a Universalist congregation, but he doesn’t live in their Township. So, you wonder, how did they meet him, if he wasn’t part of the religious denomination that they were involved in all that? But, there are other things that suggest that they’re Universalists early.  The very first meeting that Joseph, Sr. and his brother Jesse go to in the township, before their families even moved north, that’s the meeting where there’s this big controversy over not everybody wants to support the main church in town, and that some people have different religious perspectives. So, it all kind of falls apart at that first meeting that they go to.

Were you aware of the spiritual dynamics of Joseph Smith’s parents?  Check out our conversation….

Joseph Smith’s parents were quite different when it came to religion.

Don’t miss our previous conversations with Mark!

534: When Joseph Met Lucy

533: Smith Family Farm in Vermont

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When Joseph Met Lucy (Part 2 of 5)

Dating in the late 1700s wasn’t quite the same as today.  In our next conversation with Dr. Mark Staker, author of “Joseph & Lucy Smith’s Tunbridge Farm,” we’ll learn more about how Joseph Senior met his future with Lucy Mack Smith.

Mark:  Lucy, then comes into the picture. Joseph meets her, down in the village.

GT:  Joseph, Sr.

Mark:  Joseph, Sr. meets her down in the village where her brother introduces her to his customer, who was Asael. He introduces her, his sister, to his customer’s son. So, that was how the two met.

GT:  She was Lucy Mack. Is that right?

Mark:  Lucy Mack. Her brother was Stephen Mack. At that time, you didn’t walk up as a young man to a young woman and say, “Hi, what’s your name? Can I have your phone number?” That just was not done. You waited until you were properly introduced. I tried to follow through. This story has developed how Joseph Sr. and Lucy met. She was working in her brother’s store. They met somehow there. He came in to buy stuff. First, he wouldn’t have just walked up and introduced himself to her that way. Second, young women didn’t work as clerks in the store. I know in the movie, in the TV series Little House on the Prairie it happened and it did occasionally happen, husbands and wives working together. But, it probably wouldn’t have happened in this circumstance for a number of reasons, one of them being that her brother didn’t have a store right hand, he says that later. He had a lot of other businesses, including a sawmill where he would come and get his lumber for his barrels. So, he introduces Joseph, Sr. and Lucy Mack and they get married and move in to this home that we’ve been talking about, that Aesel and Mary had their family in.

Do you know any other stories of the Joseph Smith, Sr family? Check out our conversation….

Dr. Mark Staker tells how Lucy Mack met Joseph Smith, Sr.

Don’t miss our previous conversation with Dr. Mark Staker.

533: Smith Family Farm in Vermont