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Why LDS Leaders Don’t Like Popular Speakers (Part 6 of 8)

LDS Leaders often frown on popular speakers.  Why is that?  In our next conversation with Dr. Margaret Toscano, we’ll talk about how popular speakers create a problem for leaders who might not be so charismatic.  She thinks this lack of charisma leads to other movements, such as Denver Snuffer’s movement that has broken off from the mainstream LDS Church over the past few years.

Margaret:  One of the big problems in any organization, and the church basically has done this by kind of downplaying the charismatic. You see this in the church, I don’t know how this is manifest now, but I remember when I was young, which is long time ago, that they were always afraid of the popular church speaker.  George Pace. Remember George pace at BYU? Did you ever know about that?

GT:  No, I don’t think so. Paul Dunn is the one that comes to mind.

Margaret:  Yes, but he was a church leader. But even so, that’s frightening.  What if you have somebody who’s more interesting and spiritually powerful than the Prophet of the church?

GT:  That’s a problem.

Margaret:  It’s a problem. So let’s not encourage that. Most of your listeners probably don’t know. We’ll get into this little tangent.  George Pace was a very popular religion teacher at BYU. He emphasized having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, and spiritual experiences and transformation. The church saw him is very dangerous. He had a huge following. He wrote a book.  At church education, he was the most popular speaker. Everybody wanted to hear him. Well, Bruce McConkie, who is sort of the predecessor of Boyd Packer,  did not like that and gave a talk. He did two things. I’m not sure I have my facts right, but he did something to curb–basically, I think that Pace was threatened, of losing his job if he didn’t sort of walk away from all of that.

GT:  Start speaking poorly?

Margaret  Or not speak, and not publish. [It was] kind of what I was threatened with, not publishing, not speaking.  You can lose your job. He’s not the only one that happened to, again this. There’s a lot of history lost, right? Then Bruce McConkie got up and he gave a talk about the danger of having a personal relationship with Christ, which of course, on one level, you kind of laugh and think, how can that be bad?

What are your thoughts about popular speakers?  Do you agree with Margaret?  Check out our conversation….

Margaret Toscano notes that LDS Leaders don’t like it when speakers are more popular than they are.

Don’t miss our previous conversations with Margaret!

370: Charismatic, Ecclesiastical, & Messianic Priesthood

369: Theological Case for Women & Priesthood

368: An Excommunicated Believer

367: Feminist Awakening at BYU

366: Toscano: From BYU to Utah

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Charismatic, Ecclesiastical, & Messianic Priesthood (Part 5 of 8)

The fullness of priesthood, what does that mean?  In our next conversation with Dr. Margaret Toscano, we’ll talk about messianic, ecclesiastical, and charismatic priesthood.  These aren’t terms we typically talk about in the LDS Church, but Toscano believes they are outside of our traditional Aaronic and Melchizedek Priesthood terms.

Margaret:  Then, in the same article, I talk about the September 28, 1843 anointing of Joseph Smith and Emma Smith, to the fullness of the priesthood. They’re anointed jointly and I saw that as an important key for women. The idea is, if you look at all the statements of Joseph Smith, that when you have the fullness of the priesthood, you really have the right to everything else. So what I proposed then, and this goes back to your question, is that in a way, it was almost like Joseph was saying that the women could sidestep all the going through all those stages, that as soon as you had the fullness of the Melchizedek, and of course, the temple also gives you the fullness of the Aaronic, that really, you have this fullness. I would see it like an umbrella like your little light things here, that the fullness of Melchizedek priesthood encompasses everything else. Now, this created a problem.

GT:  I can tell.

Margaret:  Because really what he did was he set up two mechanisms by which you obtain priesthood, and he never worked that out. So you have the church priesthood, actually, I would say that Joseph Smith through the stages had three different kind of stages of priesthood. There’s the charismatic priesthood. There’s ecclesiastical priesthood, the fullness of the priesthood, which he also called the Messianic priesthood. It encompasses everything. I think that he felt like there should be a relationship between the fullness and the ecclesiastical, but that he never developed that. So he left these remnants of two systems that can seem like they don’t correspond or you’re not sure what they do. We can come back to some of this because I want to go back to your other question. After he died, you had Brigham Young and Hebrew, C Kimball, and George A. Smith and all of these others who began to try to sort of bring this under control, both in terms of the Relief Society and in terms of how people view the endowment. It was like, “Oh, well, this thing over here, that’s the fullness of the priesthood that’s through the temple, it has to be under the control of the church, and that the thing that the women got, it was not really the priesthood. They’re just an auxiliary.”

What do you think about these different mechanisms for priesthood?  Check out our conversation….

Dr. Margaret Toscano uses some new terminology to describe priesthood.

Don’t miss our other conversations with Dr. Toscano!

369: Theological Case for Women & Priesthood

368: An Excommunicated Believer

367: Feminist Awakening at BYU

366: Toscano: From BYU to Utah

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Theological Case for Women & Priesthood (Part 4 of 8)

If I do say so myself, I think Dr. Margaret Toscano gives one of the most insightful discussions I have ever had on priesthood power.  This is really an amazing conversation, and then she asks why women should be denied priesthood blessings.  Whether you support female ordination or not, this is an amazing discussion you don’t want to miss. 

Margaret:  God was going to do this. He was going to transform the role of women in the church. He [Joseph Smith] says to the Relief Society, and as I read through the speeches carefully, I saw several really important things, the idea that God was going to make the women a kingdom of priests, that was one of them. Another one was that the Relief Society and I hope I can remember the language of this one, that he wanted to organize the Relief Society in the order of the priesthood. Now, you have to realize that when this later, in the History of the Church, and this started to happen, in like the 1840s and 50s after Joseph’s death, where these phenomenal things that he said to the Relief Society in Nauvoo were changed. The wording was changed so that the priesthood implications of this were all switched, so that the language was, “Oh, it’s not to the women”. When you read the teachings of the Joseph Smith by Joseph Fielding Smith, the implication is that Joseph Smith is saying this to the Church, not to the women. The implication–and so when he says that the Relief Society is organized in the order of the priesthood, according to the order of the ancient priesthood, then it’s changed to they’re organized by the priesthood. I mean, that is significant. That is a very significant difference. It’s very interesting that—

GT:  Do we have a sense of who changed the wording, because I don’t think it was Joseph Fielding Smith, as old as he was.

Margaret: It was older than that. It probably, some of this started with George A. Smith in 1854.  Then B.H. Roberts–another thing that B.H. Roberts did is that Joseph Smith told the Relief Society, he said, “I turn the key to you.” That was then changed to, “I turn the key in your behalf. I’m going to get this picture because I want to show I an article that I did. This is really significant, this change. I’ve written tons about this.

What do you think?  Is Relief Society a quorum of priests? Check out our conversation…. 

Dr. Margaret Toscano makes a theological case for why women should receive priesthood.